How good is RSAF ?

[kingrant]

Your grasp of history is ephemeral. Malaysia and Inodnesia have more differences than affinities. There is no love lost. If they are blood brothers lovers than neighbours, we wldnt have Confrontasi. At that time, S'pore would have been sunk as it was sticking too much like a sore thumb as a Chinese island amongst powerful Muslim neighbours.

Spore wants water, sand, M'sian labour,... If they did what the Isralis's did to Lebabon the cost be be high.

How do you think Indonesia will respond to an attack on a muslim neigbour

Best solution is to surrender to Malaysians & have them kick out the PAP

 

[johnny333]

Your grasp of history is ephemeral. Malaysia and Inodnesia have more differences than affinities. There is no love lost. If they are blood brothers lovers than neighbours, we wldnt have Confrontasi. At that time, S'pore would have been sunk as it was sticking too much like a sore thumb as a Chinese island amongst powerful Muslim neighbours.

I know the two are not friends. They argue over illegal workers, songs, dances,...

However they are muslims. If Spore attacks Malaysia, I wouldn't be surprised if some Indonesians decide to help the Malaysians.

Just look at the middle east, there are many muslim factions which would go after each other's throat. Even with their feuds, their hatred of Israel is greater.

LKY describes Spore as the Israel of the region. He obviously fears Malaysia AND Indonesia.

 

[johnny333]

This I don't know. Anyway, what has supersonic speed got to do with it? Go air racing? Harrier is not meant to be supersonic exactly because vertical or short uplift is important for quick takeoff and strike. Argentina fought Harrier with supersonic Dassault Mirage. Ask them. The result wasn't exactly Diego Maradona.


This I understand to be true. F4 was considered too complicated and unnecessary overkill for Singapore at that time. Singapore settled on F5.

Does Spore really need the F15
Heards that the RSAF is considering the Raptures( J35).

Our paper generals of course want bragging rights to have the latest & greatest.

Malaysian generals are no better

Back when Spore had all those 2nd hand A4s many of us might have been malu but when I look back to those days Spore had good leadership. They weren't paid world class salaries, nor did they spend recklessly. For that I respect the old guard

 

[Cestbon]

Does Spore really need the F15
Heards that the RSAF is considering the Raptures( J35).

Our paper generals of course want bragging rights to have the latest & greatest.

Malaysian generals are no better

Back when Spore had all those 2nd hand A4s many of us might have been malu but when I look back to those days Spore had good leadership. They weren't paid world class salaries, nor did they spend recklessly. For that I respect the old guard

Agree why spend so much money in weapon. Buy 50 helicopter with machine gun will be enough for patrol. What for go war?
Money better spend on transport and healthcare.

 

[boundThunter]

Harrier is not meant to be supersonic exactly because vertical or short uplift is important for quick takeoff and strike. Argentina fought Harrier with supersonic Dassault Mirage. Ask them. The result wasn't exactly Diego Maradona.

The score then was an astounding 34-0 in favour of UK, most of them won in aerial dogfights.
Only 6 Harriers were lost to accidents and ground fires.

VTOL Harriers really won the day for the Brits.

 

[Ramseth]

The score then was an astounding 34-0 in favour of UK, most of them won in aerial dogfights.
Only 6 Harriers were lost to accidents and ground fires.

VTOL Harriers really won the day for the Brits.

Exactly. I didn't have the exact score but you have it there. Thanks.

People usually think first about the quick takeoff and quick landing, but there's more than that. The agility to slow down suddenly mid-air without crashing makes them deadly dogfighters and clinically accurate strikers. Who needs supersonic speed when the trick is the ability to slow down as quick as possible (as opposed to accelerate as fast as possible). Speed kills. Brake saves. An enemy AAM missile could be rendered irretrievably overshot by a sudden slow down not possible in normal supersonic jets. US had never bought any aircraft from abroad, except for the Harrier from UK. That spakes volumes.

 

[boundThunter]

Speed kills. Brake saves.

They braked and dipped down and those pursuing supersonic aircrafts overshoot and the hunter becomes the hunted. Classic.

 

[Ramseth]

They braked and dipped down and those pursuing supersonic aircrafts overshoot and the hunter becomes the hunted. Classic.

Yes, once they overshot ahead, they forgot the AAMs the Harriers carry are also supersonic and even faster. They'd be reminded of that when they're dead. Think that's how the 34:0 score came about.

 

[Papsmearer]

It's well known that Malaysia has no proper air defence against an air force like RSAF. Kuala Lumpur would be in ruins within half a day with a properly planned pre-emptive strike, taking out most of Malaysian air force aircrafts before they could take off too.



If all go according to plan and scrip, SAF would overrun Johor up to Segamat within half a day if NSmen do their duty faithfully, courageously and competently. The vast majority of Malaysian troops are amassed north towards the Thai border, no south in Johor.

However, Malaysia would still be Malaysia even with Johor overran and KL bombed. Singapore couldn't afford to have any Malaysian aircrafts over its skies or any Malaysian troop landing. That'd be the end.

No proper air defence against the RSAF? How about their Su-30, F-5E, Hawks, Mig-29? How about their SAMS such as Rapier, Starbust, Igla, etc.

 

[Ramseth]

No proper air defence against the RSAF? How about their Su-30, F-5E, Hawks, Mig-29? How about their SAMS such as Rapier, Starbust, Igla, etc.

At Mach 2 it means about 10 minutes for RSAF fighter aircrafts to reach KL, and vice versa. Both sides can't have any practically feasible response time for upping the guards whatever there are. It'd be simply war and fight. We're simply too close too each other. The one who delivers the first strike successfully wins. Malaysia doesn't seem to be bothered. A bit like calling Singapore's bluff on a poker table. They're more concerned Thailand.

 

[Papsmearer]

The score then was an astounding 34-0 in favour of UK, most of them won in aerial dogfights.
Only 6 Harriers were lost to accidents and ground fires.

VTOL Harriers really won the day for the Brits.

I don't know where u got 34 kills. The air to air losses for the Argentine air force was 21 aircraft, of which 12 were ground attack A-4s (not armed with AAM) and transport and trainer aircraft. Most of the Mirage and dagger kills by the harriers were with a new top of the line AIM-9L all aspect missile, which was not available outside the US at that time. Most Argentine fighters were operating at the limit of their range and did not dedicate hardpoints for AAM carriage. this performance by the Harrier cannot be duplicated today.

 

[Papsmearer]

At Mach 2 it means about 10 minutes for RSAF fighter aircrafts to reach KL, and vice versa. Both sides can't have any practically feasible response time for upping the guards whatever there are. It'd be simply war and fight. We're simply too close too each other. The one who delivers the first strike successfully wins. Malaysia doesn't seem to be bothered. A bit like calling Singapore's bluff on a poker table. They're more concerned Thailand.

I see, and its as simple as getting into their planes and flying 10 mins to KL? Which fantasy is this? There are many leadups to an air attack. Some things that have to happen are :
- All bases will be closed to the outside and all personnel recalled.
- Ammo and ordnance must be brought up
- Mobilisation recalls have to take place all bases go on high alert toprepare for the Malaysian response.

These are just a few of the many things that have to happen. If you think you can do all of this without alerting the Malaysians who have satellites over us, humint on the ground, etc. than you don't give enough credit to the Malaysians.

And what do you attack in KL? Logically, u must knock out all their airbases. That includes the international airport. Are u sure the RSAF will not accidentally kill some foreign tourist in the attack? What are the international repurcussions to this, and to an unprovoked attack by the RSAF? Same thing will happen when they target the MinDef Building, the container ports, etc.

 

[Papsmearer]

Exactly. I didn't have the exact score but you have it there. Thanks.

People usually think first about the quick takeoff and quick landing, but there's more than that. The agility to slow down suddenly mid-air without crashing makes them deadly dogfighters and clinically accurate strikers. Who needs supersonic speed when the trick is the ability to slow down as quick as possible (as opposed to accelerate as fast as possible). Speed kills. Brake saves. An enemy AAM missile could be rendered irretrievably overshot by a sudden slow down not possible in normal supersonic jets. US had never bought any aircraft from abroad, except for the Harrier from UK. That spakes volumes.

Today, this will not be possible to do. The HArrier will not survive todays air to air combat environment. During the falklands war, almost all aams in the world required a positioning on the enemy's tail to effect a shot. As u have mentioned, this is extremely hard to do. With todays latest generation of agile, all aspect missiles, an old aircraft can pop a salvo off 6 km away, from the front or any other angle, and u can see how hard it will be for a Harrier to dodge that.

 

[Papsmearer]

Spore wants water, sand, M'sian labour,... If they did what the Isralis's did to Lebabon the cost be be high.

How do you think Indonesia will respond to an attack on a muslim neigbour

Best solution is to surrender to Malaysians & have them kick out the PAP

yes, they will be viewed as victorious liberators by sinkies. 2nd language will be Malay, much easier to learn than mandarin.

 

[Papsmearer]

Did you hear about the problems with the A4

A technician who told me sometimes the A4s failed to get off the ground & crashed. That's how dangerous they were.

Wow your technician friend is a genius. Just about every model of aircraft has crashed on take off. lots of reasons for that. Hope your tech friend doesn't work on any aircraft I am flying in.

 

[Papsmearer]

This I don't know. Anyway, what has supersonic speed got to do with it? Go air racing? Harrier is not meant to be supersonic exactly because vertical or short uplift is important for quick takeoff and strike. Argentina fought Harrier with supersonic Dassault Mirage. Ask them. The result wasn't exactly Diego Maradona.



This I understand to be true. F4 was considered too complicated and unnecessary overkill for Singapore at that time. Singapore settled on F5.

No such thing as an overkill. Many reasons for the RSAF not to operate the F4s. Chief of which being money. The US govt. at that time was pushing the F-5s as their own air force wouldn't order them. They sold them and financed them cheap cheap under their foreign military sales (FMS) program. So, in addition to the lower initial purchase cost, the operating costs were half of the F4s (ie. lower fuel cost, one pilot instead of 2, etc).

 

[Papsmearer]

I would rather have UMNO than the PAP as our garment. At least in Malaysia, housing is affordable, job security for citizens is of importance and healthcare is actually much better than in SG.

You guys can go fight your war. I'm stocking up on sarongs.

So, you are a sarong pappy poodle?

 

[Papsmearer]

Malaysian forces are mostly regulars staying in govt provided lodging, driving military vehicles, paid less than USD500 a month and basically nothing else to their name.

Singapore forces mostly reservists stays in HDB, condos, landed properties, all value of nothing less than S$1/2 million, drives cars of value nothing lesser than S$60k, savings of maybe at least 10k and 200K in other investments and most importantly at least 100k in their CPF.

Lets take a guess of who will be more aggressive, more willing to lay down their lives, more to lose and more to gain?

Yours is the typical singapore money minded viewpoint. U think people fight for money? money as a motivation for a soldier fighting is not a very good motive. Your HDB flat, condo, six figure CPF account, all means nothing to you if you are killed in the fighting. People will fight for their love of their country, for their family's safety, for pride, for patriotism, etc. How many Sinkies truly feel patriotic, or love their country? S'poreans will see what is the reason for going to war, before they are committed behind it.

 

[Papsmearer]

In my humble opinion, before F4 Phantom, all US fighter and bomber aircrafts are middle-so-so nothing to shout about. US WW2 aircrafts were nowhere comparable to Messerschmidts, Zeros and Spitfires. Faced with a Battle of Battle style air battle against an air force like Luftwaffe, US would still survive through numerical superiority attrition but at a cost of horrendous losses and casualties, i.e. the USSR experience. US beat Japan through numbers and intelligence, and of course the nukes.

Really, the Mustang, P-47 Thunderbolt, F4U Corsairs, Grumman Hellcat, etc. were nowhere comparable to the MEs, Zeros, and Spits? I think u actually need to do some reading before u say such things.

 

[eatshitndie]

Really, the Mustang, P-47 Thunderbolt, F4U Corsairs, Grumman Hellcat, etc. were nowhere comparable to the MEs, Zeros, and Spits? I think u actually need to do some reading before u say such things.

add to that the twin-prop p-38 lightning. but i will rank the p-51 mustang higher than the p-38. for naval fighters, the f4u would rank higher than the f6f hellcat. all of them would rank higher than zeros and prop me's (not the me 262 which was a jet fighter).