How good is RSAF ?

[Chau Ve Nist]

In addition, it will be needed to maintain control of the civilian population in times of unrest.

You have got it spot on on this.

As I have mentioned before, the purpose of the SAF is not to fight. It is for political control. It is to emasculate youths at the age when they are at their idealistic and rebellious best in order that they will not be a threat to Little Emperor, his family, cronies and lapdogs.

Idealistic youths around the world, China, South Korea, Indonesia, etc have been at the forefront of political changes or the drivers for political changes. In Indonesia, the student led movement led to the collapse of Little Emperor's fellow despot's autocratic regime.

As Little Emperor once stated (or something to that effect): "Once they (youths) are put through NS, they will get their heads firmly screwed back to their shoulders". Needless to say, their testicles, youthful idealism, energy and rebelliousness would be cut off as well.

Fancy a 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 thousand show of force against Little Emperor? Forget it. A silent or open mobilisation will help Little Emperor and cronies guarantee that it will never take place.

 

[Chau Ve Nist]

Yes, be realistic. They don't have 200 million rifles to arm them and they don't have 1 million ships to sail them over even at 200 per ship. Even at official Indonesian army strength of more than 1 million, what's their capacity to deliver force overseas? Almost zero by modern international warfare standards. They can attack East Malaysia at most. Doesn't mean Singapore is completely out of their range, no. But it could be easily settled by bombing Jarkarta back to the stone age, win or lose. That's the deterrent.

You don't need 200 million rifles or a million ships to sail over. What you need is to create a political situation in a region in which trade and commerce can no longer flourish.

Trade and commerce are the raison d'être for Singapore's existence as an independent political entity. Raise regional political tensions, create internal unrest resulting in one tenth of one percent of Indonesian refugees swarming north to Singapore and that will be enough to bring Singapore to its knees without a shot being fired.

But it could be easily settled by bombing Jarkarta back to the stone age, win or lose. That's the deterrent.

All this talk of "bombing back to the stone age" are all Ramboistic fancies and notions. It won't happen. In fact, it doesn't even exist in any scenarios.

 

[Papsmearer]

If one cannot make even the simple sacrifice of serving one's country with distinction and honour then what hope does that country has ?

Singaporeans just aren't as tough as they could be. NS isn't killing them, it is the attitude and culture of complainings that are the weakening factors, hence almost an entire generation of patsies filled with angste...

The Israelis and Sinkies have a different attitude. When the govt. cares about its people, the people will care back. S'poreans don't even feel like their country belongs to them anymore, and they have been sold out by their govt. Why should they than fight for a country that is 36% populated by foreigners, and whose govt. has depleted his savings?

 

[Papsmearer]

Armour bases are strategically sited close to the 2 overland links to M'sia. In any case, even with them blown up, tanks can easily be inserted by helicopters and landing bridges are always fast to deploy. Our arty guns on the north can reach most parts of Johor.

Agree with Scro. Not only the RSAF, but the whole Defence Force is very capable - in terms of technology and the highly educated NSmen we have now.

I want to know which helo can insert a 60 ton Leo 2? Or even a fully loaded AMX-13? We use an amphibious assault to land armour not building bridges. constructing Bridges to cover 1.6km to Malaysia, under enemy fire is very hard. The SAF technology is only as good as the people using it. I don't share your confidence.

 

[Chau Ve Nist]

what if Malaysia has a pre emptive strike on us first. If they succeed in entering Singapore mainland, how do one defend a small 640km square of land?

In olden times when defending a city, once the gates are lost, it's impossible to defend the city anymore.

Malaysia will never be the military aggressors. It will look like a bully and will be condemned internationally as a bully. Plus, don't forget, it kicked Singapore out. It doesn't want Singapore.

However, if Singapore does try to be funny, Malaysia will unleash its cheap solution to Singapore's fancy planes which the jingoistic Singapore Rambos take a lot of pride in.

These cheap MLRS will destroy military camps, bases, runaways, alternate runways, broadcasting stations, etc plus off course, quite a few "strays" will inevitably hit a number of HDB flats.

In this day and age, asymmetric warfare is a cheaper way to fight and the Malaysians are smart enough to know that they don't have to match Singapore plane by plane or tank by tank to bring it down to its knees.

 

[Papsmearer]

For the initial first strike, you need men who can operate electronic equipment and grasp advanced tech. You need the toughies at the last stage, and that may not even materialised.

The SAF doctrine is to hold out for 2 weeks in any major engagement. By which time, international peace forces are probably in action.

Kingrant, u sound really befuddled. Why would an international peace force be send here in 2 weeks? The UN has never moved that fast. Any by your scenario, we are the agressors because we attacked first. The UN will pass resolutions asking us to GET THE HELL OUT OF MALAYSIA. If we don't do that, there will be sanctions against us. And if we get out, we will lose face and have to pay reparations to them. If we don't get out, no shipping will come in, a UN embargo will be on us, and every muslim jihadist from Indonesia to Iran will be volunteering to come to Malaysia to fight a holy war against us.

 

[Papsmearer]

Actually, a lot has been done on the quiet. If you look at the map of Singapore, you will see that all the rivers on the western part have been closed off to become reservoirs. They have already done now for the marina barrage, and more will be done in the Northeast. So in terms of supplies, I think they are there. But the PAP will want to continue to milk the water agreeement till the last drop. If we can pay less than 5 sens for water, why not, while quietly planning and preparing for the end to come?

We are like the US, use OP's oil first till run out then tap its own.

U have not taken into account the 36% increase in population due to influx of FTs, and the stated goal of the PAP to increase the population to 6million. Therefore, there is no chance there is enough water for everyone.

 

[Papsmearer]

Of the three, I'll watch Indonesia the most. Maybe that's why the Sinkie govt had to butter their asses since patching up with Suharto - loaned billions to jakarta, and was always the first to send tsunami and earthquake aid teams.. they are the real Abang lah..Inche.

Why watch Indonesia? what can they do to us?

 

[Chau Ve Nist]

The Israelis and Sinkies have a different attitude. When the govt. cares about its people, the people will care back. S'poreans don't even feel like their country belongs to them anymore, and they have been sold out by their govt. Why should they than fight for a country that is 36% populated by foreigners, and whose govt. has depleted his savings?

Spot on. Singaporeans are not Jews nor is Singapore Israel. All these comparisons with the Israelis with the attitude that Singapore mirrors the Israelis geopolitically and as such can fight like them, are hopeful at best and naively dangerous at worse.

The Jews have an ancient history and an unshakeable belief that God has bequeath that land to them. The persecution of the Jews from ancient times has made them determined that they will never again be left without a homeland.

Singapore, 50 years old, populated by a mercantile majority Chinese ethnic group who are ever eager to emigrate out of the country even in time of peace is a different kettle of fish.

One of the first thing that Israeli conscipts do as part of their military rites is to visit Masada to swear an oath that Masada will never fall again.

Singaporean conscripts, on the other hand, will swear a personal oath to keng, get downgraded and skive as much as they can on their first visit to Peng Kang hill.

How to compare to the Israelis and how to fight wars?

 

[blueblobster]

Armour bases are strategically sited close to the 2 overland links to M'sia. In any case, even with them blown up, tanks can easily be inserted by helicopters and landing bridges are always fast to deploy. Our arty guns on the north can reach most parts of Johor.

Agree with Scro. Not only the RSAF, but the whole Defence Force is very capable - in terms of technology and the highly educated NSmen we have now.

And you have ops planning experience at Bde or even Bn level?

How familiar are you with our armoured formations? Which tank can be inserted by air and also does the RSAF has the air assets to insert an entire SAR? Bridging the Straits? How much do you actually know about the SAF doctrine? For the matter, how much do you know about the actual capabilities of our armoured engineers?

Your last paragraph suggests you are simply buying into the SAF propaganda.

By the way, your idea that toughies are needed only at the last stage is in direct contradiction with what you wrote above. And let me tell you, our doctrine almost requires toughies very early in any conflict.

 

[red amoeba]

regardless the amount of hardware or sophisticated equipment you have, one thing never change since mankind fights war - that is, you physically need bodies to occupy a ground.

So what if you decimate all the enemies in a spot using super weapons from 10,000 miles away? You need bodies to occupy the ground and plant the flag. Otherwise, there is always the possibility of someone going there to occupy it.

actually as someone pointed out above, an effective way to overrun us is to, launch thousands of boat people towards us, how many boats can we shoot / sink before we are overwhelmed by the crowd? How many unarmed persons you can shoot before you break down? Can our NS boys take it?

 

[Ramseth]

regardless the amount of hardware or sophisticated equipment you have, one thing never change since mankind fights war - that is, you physically need bodies to occupy a ground.

So what if you decimate all the enemies in a spot using super weapons from 10,000 miles away? You need bodies to occupy the ground and plant the flag. Otherwise, there is always the possibility of someone going there to occupy it.

Not true. Through the history of warfare, there've always been war aims of destruction only, without intention of occupation. Particularly, the destruction of enemy capacity to pose any threat or attack back. Then there's the deterrent aim of extracting maximum (and hopefully deemed unafforable) price in damages to enemy if one comes under attack. There's also a host of other war aims without any intention at occupation, e.g. teach a lesson, political leverage, historical vengeance etc.

Whatever SAF, RSN and RSAF combine to be in terms of power, one thing's for sure. Singapore is in no position to occupy any foreign land for any extended period beyond achieving the basic war aim.

actually as someone pointed out above, an effective way to overrun us is to, launch thousands of boat people towards us, how many boats can we shoot / sink before we are overwhelmed by the crowd? How many unarmed persons you can shoot before you break down? Can our NS boys take it?

Indonesia tried to do that before. First, they have many people but not enough boats. A few Royal Navy battleships demonstrated their ability to blow all of them underwater even as casual target practice had they persisted. Sukarno undertood that and desisted. Today is not Spanish Armada days. If Indonesia assemble a fleet against Singapore, I'm sure RSAF would blow them up like Japanese Zeros blew up Prince Of Wales and Repulse. The talk of millions of Indonesians landing in Singapore is simply impracticable urban legend. With the size of RSAF, they'd all drown at sea. There's an easier and safer way to do it. Apply for a work permit.

 

[Frankiestine]

Why watch Indonesia? what can they do to us?

Perhaps of all the neighbouring countries, they are viewed as the most unpredictable and unreasonable one...and i think all this could be traced back to those konfrontasi days with them and the bombing of Macdonald house by their agents...

 

[Papsmearer]

Perhaps of all the neighbouring countries, they are viewed as the most unpredictable and unreasonable one...and i think all this could be traced back to those konfrontasi days with them and the bombing of Macdonald house by their agents...

Than was than, now is very much different. Rich Indons including bumi Indons and Indon army generals have hundreds of millions of dollars parked in S'pore at various banks, as well as properties. The last thing they want to do is to lose all of that.

Also what can they do militarily to us? Their air force is small and not very well equipped. Their navy has no capability to land 500 troops, much less the 100,000 needed in the first wave alone. Militarily they are no threat at all. U can have thebiggest army in the world, but if you cannot bring across a sea to invade your opponent, its no use to you.

 

[Liquigas]

If a lone lame footed man can swim across Johore Strait using primitive floating device, what make you so sure that enemy commandos cannot land on our shore by the hundreds under the cover of darkness?

 

[Frankiestine]

Than was than, now is very much different. Rich Indons including bumi Indons and Indon army generals have hundreds of millions of dollars parked in S'pore at various banks, as well as properties. The last thing they want to do is to lose all of that.

Also what can they do militarily to us? Their air force is small and not very well equipped. Their navy has no capability to land 500 troops, much less the 100,000 needed in the first wave alone. Militarily they are no threat at all. U can have thebiggest army in the world, but if you cannot bring across a sea to invade your opponent, its no use to you.

Well I guess our government might have some interest in them if not they won't be subjecting them to such close scrutiny always on the "look out" and "listening out" for possible signs of trouble there...

 

[Ramseth]

If a lone lame footed man can swim across Johore Strait using primitive floating device, what make you so sure that enemy commandos cannot land on our shore by the hundreds under the cover of darkness?

It's only about 1km wide, the Johor Straits, about 20 laps of standard swimming pool. Any fit swimmer can swim across leisurely without floating device in less than half an hour. I used to do that when I was in boy scouts. With a floating device, don't say crippled, amputated also can cross it.

That's why Malaysia and particularly Johor is so vital to Singapore. From Indonesia, whether Sumatra or Java, try swim across?

 

[Chau Ve Nist]

The talk of millions of Indonesians landing in Singapore is simply impracticable urban legend. With the size of RSAF, they'd all drown at sea. There's an easier and safer way to do it. Apply for a work permit.

Hardly "urban legends" when such scenarios have been considered.

 

[kingrant]

And you have ops planning experience at Bde or even Bn level?

naturally I have. Or I wont be talking.

How familiar are you with our armoured formations? Which tank can be inserted by air and also does the RSAF has the air assets to insert an entire SAR? Bridging the Straits? How much do you actually know about the SAF doctrine? For the matter, how much do you know about the actual capabilities of our armoured engineers?

Your last paragraph suggests you are simply buying into the SAF propaganda.

By the way, your idea that toughies are needed only at the last stage is in direct contradiction with what you wrote above. And let me tell you, our doctrine almost requires toughies very early in any conflict.

Let's hear yr arguments instead of just negating. I dont see how you came to the conclusion that I am contradicting in my last para. Explain.

 

[kingrant]

It's as urban legend as saying that China's billions will come to the aid of S'pore if we are attacked by Muslim neighbours.

The talk of millions of Indonesians landing in Singapore is simply impracticable urban legend. With the size of RSAF, they'd all drown at sea. There's an easier and safer way to do it. Apply for a work permit.