How good is RSAF ?

[Sideswipe]

Singapore Armed Forces basically exist for 5 purposes

Natural disasters
Public riots
Freak election results
Embezzlement
Send Singaporean males for 2 years of national slavery so that more jobs will be available for foreign trash.

 

[kingrant]

No argument there that we shld always keep good rel'ships with our neighbours at the same time preparing for surprises by keeping a deterrent image.

The seas as buffer are not enough since we are already much too close for today's missile ranges. So if we we have to be quicker on the draw. When? It's a judgment call.

Certainly, we need a healthy balance between being excessively humble and self-effacing and being unafraid to have a strong self-esteem. At times, the govt crows too much, the media parrots too much, and our citizens grate on our hosts' nerves when they become tourists.

The sea is buffer enough against any Indons' aggresions and Malaysia, with their ethnic compositions and shared history is more a friend than a foe. But as in any relationships, nothing lasts forever, a friend today could be a deadly foe tomorrow and that is the reason why good neighbourly relationship in between them are so important but the civilians mannerism of Singaporeans are really shitty and leaves much to be desired with their own brand of higher than thou mentality towards their neighbours in particular.

The rest of the neighbours are suakus and look how sucessful the current media has been in anointing and implanting a sense of invincibility amongst the majority of the populace. The SIngaporean's Government ought to start a graciousness appreciation campaign "be nice to your neighbours be them nextdoors in the HDB or across the causeway or over the seas." That will be the first step towards acceptance by the neighbours who will reciprocate with goodwill and might even lose the bogeyman tag that are so permeating in those neighbours' mentality.

It is not in the neighbours' interest to see a ruined Singapore because in SEA all the roads lead to Singapore. A fucked up Singapore is poisonous to all concerned and will set them back many years and under no circumstances would they be stupid enough to cut off their nose to spite the face, but who knows, Saddam Hussein wasn't that smart and his fault could be repeated in this region as well.

Therefore the concept of "speaks softly but carries a damn big stick" is so important because Singapore has no ability in invading and pacifying except through the usage of soft power and the doctrinal poison shrimp's strategy; you step on my head, I will poison you to dead.

A very strong deterrent is an absolute necessity.
Let those paper generals have their toys and pays.

 

[Chau Ve Nist]

For example....the thingy u need to have 6 times a day as told by ur doc is turned off.

The ludicrous turning off the tap is an invention of Little Emperor. He has succeeded in persuading Singaporeans simply because Singaporeans share the same unfortunate racist attitudes towards the Malays, i.e. that they are useless, corrupt, lazy, drug addicts, can't and will not honour agreements, etc.

Rest assured the Malays will not turn off their taps and starve our Peng Kang Hill heatstroke veterans and their families. It is against their culture, their ethnic pride and their religion. They will be condemned no less by the OIC and the Muslim world if they do that and bring Islam into disrepute. Also, don't forget, they have more than a half a million of their Malay cousins here.

Don't believe everything that Little Emperor tells you. That fucking arsehole will say and do everything to create constant fear and a siege mentality amongst Chinese Singaporeans so that they will continue to support him and his cronies and lapdogs lest they starved or be run over by the Malay "hordes" from within and without.

 

[Chau Ve Nist]

Some forummers are confident that we can really strike a decisive blow to the enemy and so do i. It is not only becos our superior man and machine..it is becos most of our doctrine are geared towards our most likely enemy..which is u noe what. And i think Our enemy doctrine are geared towards their friends up north. All this point to a very likely win for us. And i agree with u there will be no wars....But no wars doesnt mean no need preventive measures.

There is no question that the SAF military looks formidable on paper vis-a-vis its ASEAN neighbours. What determines military success however is not your formidable weapons and equipment but whether the men needed to operate them are of willing flesh and of willing spirit.

Singaporean Chinese are of pragmatic, mercantile stock and have embedded in them, the cultural DNA of a migratory people. That is the reason why you see them emigrating even in times of peace. In times of tension, you will see everyone rushing out for the exit gates.

The 350,000 NSmen who form the backbone(backache???) of the SAF have neither the passion nor the will to leave their parents, wives and children to fight for a 99 year leasehold flat. Like Lee's lapdogs and his elite class of civil servants, they too would have done their calculations and come to the conclusion that it is better to be alive and restart their lives in another country than to be dead or disabled.

News about members of Little Emperor's government and elite leaving the country in times of tensions even before a war actually break out will leak out to the rank and file of the SAF even with an iron clamp placed on the prostitute press. This will crush the will, if there is one in the first place, of anyone wanting to fight.

A chat with SAF military psychologists about the results of the surveys that they have carried out about whether SAF soldiers would fight for their country would be revealing.

 

[Liquigas]

Yes, we have the hardware, quite advanced at that. But our weak link I am afraid is the will to fight on the part of our soldiers. Most of us here have gone through NS and in-camp training. You work and deal with these people in your reservist unit. You know your platoon commander and rifleman fairly well . Now in time of war, honestly folks, do you really think these people will and can fight effectively as a unit? Maybe a regular army will serve the national interest better....

 

[blueblobster]

naturally I have. Or I wont be talking.



Let's hear yr arguments instead of just negating. I dont see how you came to the conclusion that I am contradicting in my last para. Explain.

If you have, then you will know that:

1. The SAF does NOT airlift armoured vehicles into a battlezone. Definitely not in the scenario you mentioned where we are the aggressors.
2. Even if it does, we do NOT have the air assets to do that.

My remark about you contradicting yourself pertains to your PERSONAL view on two of your separate posts. I am not addressing SAF doctrine.

First, you portrayed us as the aggressor landing tanks (by helo) in Malaysia. Next, you told another forumner that he has no experience in planning because the toughies are needed only at the last stage. Unless the RSAF plans to simply park empty tanks in JB, I would assume that they need to be operated by toughies.

 

[Sideswipe]

Now in time of war, honestly folks, do you really think these people will and can fight effectively as a unit? Maybe a regular army will serve the national interest better....

regular army definably better
or we can have a foreign legion army.

mercenary are professional, they will be "self motivated" to fight in in armed conflict.

 

[kingrant]

In my scenario, I believe that Singapore will have to fight its battle in Johore if it were to effectively repel an invading enemy from the north that is beyond M'sia. This enemy need not be Malaysia, so Malaysia becomes a war zone as well as the buffer. I am not confident that M'sia can hold, and that it wil be overrun if we dont take steps to defend our lines, which I insist should be brought forward in Johore and even possibly up to KL. This southern buffer must be secured by us once the airforce have dominated the air space overhead. It remains to move our artillery fwd too. hence we need tanks and armour to be moved up as well. Airlifting armour is not impossible with modern C17s and Russian Antonovs fixed wing transporters, but you are right maybe we dont have the assets (yet) as they are still very new. Anyhow, the distance is too small to deploy them. Therefore we roll the tanks into Johor via the land links or by landing ships, crashing up the coastline. We sit on M'sian soil and stare down the barrels of the advancing enemy from north of M'sia. By moving up the arty bases you extend their range. What I said was that infantry does the mopping up after our bombardment, so it can't be that tough, right? Conversely, if you then call the people in tanks toughies, I am neutral on that. Maybe they are. But the point is the infantry job is made less tough if our advanced chaps have done a good job.

PS. Ok my error - you dont need toughies at the last stage: that's what I meant.

If you have, then you will know that:

1. The SAF does NOT airlift armoured vehicles into a battlezone. Definitely not in the scenario you mentioned where we are the aggressors.
2. Even if it does, we do NOT have the air assets to do that.

My remark about you contradicting yourself pertains to your PERSONAL view on two of your separate posts. I am not addressing SAF doctrine.

First, you portrayed us as the aggressor landing tanks (by helo) in Malaysia. Next, you told another forumner that he has no experience in planning because the toughies are needed only at the last stage. Unless the RSAF plans to simply park empty tanks in JB, I would assume that they need to be operated by toughies.

 

[kensington]

The Five Power Defence Arrangements (FPDA) are a series of defence relationships established by bilateral agreements between the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia and Singapore signed in 1971, whereby the five states will consult each other in the event of external aggression or threat of attack against Malaysia or Singapore.


Anyone who hit Malaysia or Singapore will have to face the wraths of these combined Forces and since the domino theory had been proven to be baseless, there is no one left going to hit Malaysia or Singapore except them going at each others' throats themselves.

Maybe Indonesia will pose a threat if they get rich as fast as China in term of their purchasing power in armaments,thus altering the balance of power projections and there is no one left to terrorise Singapore.

Singapore is already a state of the U.S. and the Russians are not interested that leaves only China to be a potential aggressor but history tells us that China is not into subjugating her neighbours if you don't share a land border with her. Thailand is a good example of that policy.(Thailand's northern border is about a hundred mile from China and historically never been at war with China.)

Spratly Islands are a potential flashpoint and tjhough Singapore is not a claimant, she could get involve indirectly through whatever spat Malaysia has with China. Scary thought but probable.

Australian Treaty Series 1971 No 21
DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS
CANBERRA



Five Power Defence Arrangements:


Exchange of Notes constituting an Agreement between the Government of Australia and the Government of Malaysia regarding External Defence


(Kuala Lumpur, 1 December 1971)


Retrospective entry into force: 1 November 1971


Exchange of Notes constituting an Agreement between the Government of Australia and the Government of the Republic of Singapore regarding External Defence


(Singapore, 1 December 1971)


Retrospective entry into force: 1 November 1971


AUSTRALIAN TREATY SERIES
1971 No. 21



Australian Government Publishing Service
Canberra



(c) Commonwealth of Australia 1996

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1971/21.html

 

[Sideswipe]

treaties count for nothing.
too many treaties of alliance and friendship have been denounced in history as necessity at that moment in time ruled over everything else.

 

[Cestbon]

Argument last so long. Look like NS really brain wash almost all Singaporean male, if war really happen I will be the 1st batch run out from the island. Not worth fighting for. Win or lose most of the population is death.

 

[Papsmearer]

I seriously wonder where all this paranoia of invasion from Malaysia comes from? LKY's psychology of fear and the use of a siege mentality is so effective that silly S'poreans succumbed to; hook, line and sinker? What gain is there for Malaysia to invade Singapore?

Military might to secure water supply? What happened to all the so called plans for desalination, newater etc? You don't invade a country just because they don't want to supply you water anymore. Would S'pore invade Indonesia if they don't want to sell sand? Clearly, if a tiny land mass does not have enough resources to sustain further population expansion, then it has no business accepting more and more immigrants to exacerbate the problem of inadequate water, power, homes etc etc!

History has shown that MORE often than NOT, the side that strikes first, far from gaining from any pre-emptive blow advantage often results in underestimating the enemy & miscalculation leading to ruin and defeat or being bogged down in an endless war.

Japan's first strike at Pearl Harbour, Hitler's disasterous invasion of Soviet Russia, Saddam's Kuwait misadventure. Russia's Afghanistan, USA's Vietnam War, Iraq, Afghanistan are good examples of what GUNGHO belief in the military and high tech hardware can lead to.

well put. My sentiments exactly. Lee Con You has to conjure up a bogey man enemy to justify his huge military and defence budget. So, the bogey man is Malaysia. Few people stop to consider there are more chinese in Malaysia than there are in S'pore. Our neighbours have a good laugh every year when they see how much we spend on defence as opposed to social needs. They love to watch us pissed money down the toilet and into the pockets of western defence contractors.

 

[Papsmearer]

naturally I have. Or I wont be talking.



Let's hear yr arguments instead of just negating. I dont see how you came to the conclusion that I am contradicting in my last para. Explain.

What, u have battalion and brigade level planning experience? Well, the SAF is fucked than. I just hope u are not in my reservist unit.

 

[Papsmearer]

Argument last so long. Look like NS really brain wash almost all Singaporean male, if war really happen I will be the 1st batch run out from the island. Not worth fighting for. Win or lose most of the population is death.

Bro, don't wait until war start, by than its too late. U have to monitor the situation and watch for the signs. There will be many signs, such as exchange of words between 2 countries, stock market crashing, diplomatic failures, open mobs, buildup on the borders, etc. Just get out of the country when all of this is happening. That's my plan. Even though I am appointment holder, I fuck care, its vacation time in HK for me when all this shit is happening. Once war starts, all exits will be closed, how to run? I already plan for all of this.

 

[Papsmearer]

If you have, then you will know that:

1. The SAF does NOT airlift armoured vehicles into a battlezone. Definitely not in the scenario you mentioned where we are the aggressors.
2. Even if it does, we do NOT have the air assets to do that.

My remark about you contradicting yourself pertains to your PERSONAL view on two of your separate posts. I am not addressing SAF doctrine.

First, you portrayed us as the aggressor landing tanks (by helo) in Malaysia. Next, you told another forumner that he has no experience in planning because the toughies are needed only at the last stage. Unless the RSAF plans to simply park empty tanks in JB, I would assume that they need to be operated by toughies.

Yes, its scary to think that Kingrant has planning experience, either that or he is just a boldfaced liar. I can confirm yes to 1. and maybe to 2. The RSAF have experimented with airlifting of armour. We do have the ac for that and a couple of armour models that can be airlifted, but definitely none by helo.

Kingrant does not think that armour are toughies. I am sure armour bros here will take umbrage to that.

 

[Chau Ve Nist]

Yes, we have the hardware, quite advanced at that. But our weak link I am afraid is the will to fight on the part of our soldiers. Most of us here have gone through NS and in-camp training. You work and deal with these people in your reservist unit. You know your platoon commander and rifleman fairly well . Now in time of war, honestly folks, do you really think these people will and can fight effectively as a unit? Maybe a regular army will serve the national interest better....

What you have written is an honest assessment of the capability of the typical SAF soldier and the recognition that plans can only be as good as the people, down to the smallest group within a section and individual soldier, who will need to execute it. Otherwise, the plans are worth a complete fuck off.

What you are reading in this thread is a disconnect between the Peng Kang Hill heatstroke veterans and those in their airconditioned tents or offices that plan on where these veterans should suffer their next heat stroke.

I understand it can be thrilling for a young officer or specialist (and even older ones who should know better) witnessing or being part of a Bn, Bde, Div, Army, Sqn, Air Force or Navy planning group drawing (or observing) huge fearsome arrows showing the thrust of armour and infantry, the insertion of seaborne and heliborne forces, the drawing of huge arcs representing the aircover, planning air and artillery strikes etc and generally the thought of being part of a small coterie privileged to be privy to secret plans and top secret manouevres not available to anyone else except to the bespectacled paper generals in the SAF and their million dollar political masters.

However, that cheap thrill must not blind these young officers and specialists to the reality of what the SAF is actually made up of and what it is capable of in the reality of the blood and gore of war as opposed to the playstation wargames held in airconditioned rooms, theatres and tents.

Those who have fought real battles and experienced the blood and gore of war will not brag and boast as much as these young Rambo wannabes with their juvenile fantasies about marching to Johore, zipping this and zapping that and blowing everything that gets in their way.

These Rambo wannabes will be the first to pee and shit in their pants at the sight of limbless bodies, detached heads and the whistle of bullets coming in their direction.

When the next MRT suicide or teow low comes up, please view the bloodied and dismembered bodies. It will help to cut out all this fucking rubbish about marching to Johore, blasting Indonesia and Khaw Boon Wan and Irene Ng's relatives back to the stone age, etc.

Yes, I named KBW and IN deliberately. This is to remind the Rambo wannabes that just as the Malaysian have their Malay families and cousins in Singapore, Singapore Chinese too have their Chinese families and cousins in Malaysia.

 

[Chau Ve Nist]

Argument last so long. Look like NS really brain wash almost all Singaporean male, if war really happen I will be the 1st batch run out from the island. Not worth fighting for. Win or lose most of the population is death.

Thanks for your honesty. Just make sure you get your airtickets first because I forsee everyone, and not just Little Emperor, his lapdogs and his elite civil servants, doing so.

 

[Sideswipe]

Those who have fought real battles and experienced the blood and gore of war will not brag and boast as much as these young Rambo wannabes with their juvenile fantasies about marching to Johore, zipping this and zapping that and blowing everything that gets in their way.

These Rambo wannabes will be the first to pee and shit in their pants at the sight of limbless bodies, detached heads and the whistle of bullets coming in their direction.

When the next MRT suicide or teow low comes up, please view the bloodied and dismembered bodies. It will help to cut out all this fucking rubbish about marching to Johore, blasting Indonesia and Khaw Boon Wan and Irene Ng's relatives back to the stone age, etc.

You write very well and understand a lot about war, life and death...

I'm sure that you have real life combat experiences and faught in many conflicts all over the world.

 

[Chau Ve Nist]

I'm sure that you have real life combat experiences and faught in many conflicts all over the world.

Fortunately and unlike the Rambo wannabes, I have not fought in any wars and consider myself fucking lucky not to have been in one. However, I have personally seen for myself the death and destruction brought about by mindless jingoism and warfare. I have spoken to those who have fought in real wars and have yet to find a single one who brag about being in one or who would like to re-experience it or thought that it was a good idea or felt all gung ho and macho about having fought in a real war.

Like the Rambo wannabes though, I have fought countless battles and all type of conflicts on my Sony playstation and computer.

 

[longbow]

Aiyoh you guys miss the big point lah. Indonesia does not need an army. All they need is create some form of panic in Riau (stir up some ethinic tension) and overnight we have a few thousand sampans making for Singapore.

Lets say they dispatch 100K refugess for Marine Parade what can we do? Sink the sampans and lead to death of women and children? Of course not. So we will rescue them and overnight we will have a few hundred refugees to look after. We try sending them back to Indonesia, the Indonesian ask how do we know they are Indonesians since no passport. Jakarta can do a go slow on checking if they are citizens and we will be stuck with these few hundred refugess. To be even more sinister they can include a few special forces personnel with the refugees to stir trouble. Security itself will be a problem. Try maintaining security in a camp of 150K people in a situation where nice buildings, food, clothing, $$$ is just 50 feet away. This is not some refugee in the middle of the desert. So many can force their way out into the neighborhood.

You can have latest stealth frigate but what can it do against a few hundred sampans coming over by cover of night and the refugees sink their boats upon being intercepted. I think even the captains of commercial ships will pick up the refugees and drop them off at the port of call - SIngapore!

Malaysia - do not need high tech weapons lah. Just mobilizes their troops on their borders and our FT, HNW all run away, stock market collapse. BTW they have every right to do military excercises on their own borders.

Notice these 2 scenarios require no offensive military actions and our high tech weapons are usesless. No need to do some pre-planned military exercises that NS men learn. If we make first military move, we are in the wrong.

I think the rich that are buying Sentosa Villas at $2Kpsf are not going to hang around and may try and sell for cheap to get out of Singapore.