Why the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

[Liquigas]

the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

The Manchus are a remarkable people. With a population that was so much so much smaller than Han Chinese, the Manchus invaded and conquered the whole of China and set up a dynasty that was to last 267 years. Chinese controlled territory during the reign of the Qing emperors was the largest after Tibet was annexed. On ther other hand, the Japanese. one-tenth population of China, occupied Chna for 8 years (14 years if you include Manchuria) and could not reach the interior of the Chinese mainland.

 

[Doubblur]

Re: the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

The Manchus are a remarkable people. With a population that was so much so much smaller than Han Chinese, the Manchus invaded and conquered the whole of China and set up a dynasty that was to last 267 years. Chinese controlled territory during the reign of the Qing emperors was the largest after Tibet was annexed. On ther other hand, the Japanese. one-tenth population of China, occupied Chna for 8 years (14 years if you include Manchuria) and could not reach the interior of the Chinese mainland.

Manchuria didn't invade China. Manchuria was in China. Manchuria was under Ming and allowed a king and his own army. The civil war revolt was when he declared himself emperor. The Manchurian victory was two reasons. Manchuria all NS. No men were doing anything else. All men were soldiers. Also supported by Ming revolters. When Manchuria won and China became Qing, they practised same system too. The biggest Ming revolt supporter Wu Sangui was given title king and land in Yunnan and allowed his own army too. That system ended with Kangxi killing Wu Sangui after he attempted counter revolt. No more other kings under the empeor after that. The whole Manchurian population moved down south. After victory, I think they sent back 2 flag armies out of 8 to guard Manchuria. Later and modern Manchurian population are all Han Chinese migrants after discovery of iron mines in Manchuria.

 

[cheowyonglee]

Re: the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

A very good movie on the fall of Great Ming dynasty!Ming 1644 is a very nice show worth watching!


[video=youtube;jhQ46piS0pE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhQ46piS0pE[/video]

 

[vamjok]

invading force bigger than defending force normal?

the Chinese outnumbered the Japanese 5:1 but the latter still overran most of China. Soviet Russians also outnumbered the Germans. what mattered were well-trained troops, proper arms and equipments and morale. eg. the Chinese central government army in 1942 had 3 men to 1 rifle, the Japanese had almost 1 man to 1 rifle. a Chinese division (7-9K) had 200-300 light machine guns and 50 heavy machine guns, a Japan division (20-25K) had 10K light machine guns and 500 heavy machine guns. it's very hard for inferior equipped Chinese troops to fight the Japanese army, outnumbered them also no use. don't know how Japan military supplies matched up compared to the US and British forces.

it was way more complex than that. to be honest the real evil is the communist here, if the communist were not creating problem for the KMT then, the jap dogs had no chance.

 

[Ramseth]

it was way more complex than that. to be honest the real evil is the communist here, if the communist were not creating problem for the KMT then, the jap dogs had no chance.

If CCP didn't cause the trouble they caused for KMT, no Japanese soldiers would have left China alive and they wouldn't have come down so far south to invade Singapore.

 

[Sideswipe]

it was way more complex than that. to be honest the real evil is the communist here, if the communist were not creating problem for the KMT then, the jap dogs had no chance.

yes, I totally agree.
the 300K CCP army evaded Japanese forces for 8 years and rarely fought a good battle. her policy for the war was 70% territories expansion, 20% dealing with the Kuomintang, 10% resisting Japan.

 

[Sideswipe]

If CCP didn't cause the trouble they caused for KMT, no Japanese soldiers would have left China alive and they wouldn't have come down so far south to invade Singapore.

actually even if CCP and KMT fought a true united front against Japan, they were still no match for the Japanese armies. for starters, Japan massively outgun China in firepowers. that's why Chiang Kai Shek pursued a policy of appeasement toward Japan expansion in China till 1937.

 

[Ramseth]

actually even if CCP and KMT fought a true united front against Japan, they were still no match for the Japanese armies. for starters, Japan massively outgun China in firepowers. that's why Chiang Kai Shek pursued a policy of appeasement toward Japan expansion in China till 1937.

It's sick but it's strategic. Sacrifice people's lives nevermind. Same as British surrender in Singapore. Lure them in until at one point, finish them off. Both Winston Churchill and Chiang Kai-shek said the same thing, the objective was total victory and unconditional surrender. That was also KMT strategy, only that KMT was disrupted heavily by CCP and the British were helped heavily by the Americans.

 

[singveld]

Re: the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

The Manchus are a remarkable people. With a population that was so much so much smaller than Han Chinese, the Manchus invaded and conquered the whole of China and set up a dynasty that was to last 267 years. Chinese controlled territory during the reign of the Qing emperors was the largest after Tibet was annexed. On ther other hand, the Japanese. one-tenth population of China, occupied Chna for 8 years (14 years if you include Manchuria) and could not reach the interior of the Chinese mainland.

yeah also china turn from richest country in the world to have to beg for loan from european power at the end of their 267 years. Europe is tiny compare to china. so european is more remarkable.

 

[Unrepented]

Re: the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

You can call ppl papy dogs, but call european remarkable. The european robbed china under the manchus, and use that money to give back as a loan. You can't see the parallel

yeah also china turn from richest country in the world to have to beg for loan from european power at the end of their 267 years. Europe is tiny compare to china. so european is more remarkable.

 

[cass888]

Re: the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

yeah also china turn from richest country in the world to have to beg for loan from european power at the end of their 267 years. Europe is tiny compare to china. so european is more remarkable.

All the damage done by Qianlong who bankrupted the empire at the end of his term.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

Re: the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

All the damage done by Qianlong who bankrupted the empire at the end of his term.

qian long is considered to be one of the greatest qing empire emperors.

 

[Ramseth]

Re: the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

qian long is considered to be one of the greatest qing empire emperors.

Qianlong was an inheritor of what Kangxi and Yongzheng did and laid before him. He had done nothing great. Cite something, can you?

 

[cass888]

Re: the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

qian long is considered to be one of the greatest qing empire emperors.

Qianlong was an inheritor of what Kangxi and Yongzheng did and laid before him. He had done nothing great. Cite something, can you?

To be fair, Qianlong was a competent emperor and military leader in the earlier part of his reign. However, towards the end, his successes led to complacency and a life of luxury both of which bankrupted China.

 

[Ramseth]

Re: the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

To be fair, Qianlong was a competent emperor and military leader in the earlier part of his reign. However, towards the end, his successes led to complacency and a life of luxury both of which bankrupted China.

He was well trained and groomed by his grand daddy Kangxi and daddy Yongzheng, no doubt, the appointed and anointed one.

Reflects the ancient Chinese maxim. 创业难，守业更难， 富不过三代。

 

[cass888]

Re: the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

He was well trained and groomed by his grand daddy Qianlong and daddy Yongzheng, no doubt, the appointed and anointed one.

Reflects the ancient Chinese maxim. 创业难，守业更难， 富不过三代。

By grand daddy you meant Kangxi to whom Qianlong remained filial to his death.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

Re: the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

He was well trained and groomed by his grand daddy Qianlong and daddy Yongzheng, no doubt, the appointed and anointed one.

Reflects the ancient Chinese maxim. 创业难，守业更难， 富不过三代。

Qianlong's grandad also called qianlong meh?

 

[Ramseth]

Re: the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

Apology to Jah and Cass for the typo. I meant Kangxi his grand daddy.

 

[singveld]

.
in fact if the stupid english commander of sg then just hold on for another 2 weeks, japanese troop in sg would surely surrender. they were only putting on a false strong front when they entered. and they really put on a god damn good show

In fact churchill insists that the force never surrender, but that is the problem if you put fags to be general.

 

[Fook Seng]

In fact churchill insists that the force never surrender, but that is the problem if you put fags to be general.

How to resist? The Japanese had broken through the last line of resistance at Pasir Panjang Hill and the Malay Regiment was reduced to just 3 men. Ask Winston Churchill to go to hell.