Why the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

[sleaguepunter]

There's no way Japan could conquer China whole. 8 to 11 countries joined forces just to force some concessional treaties from China, that's the history I know.

The boxers uprising was just misunderstanding between all the powers involved. The imperial forces involved are rather small in numbers, ard 70K wheras the 8 powers have a total of 50K. For most part, it the Boxers, armed with obselete weapons that oppose the foreign troops while imperial troops try to seperate both sides. The imperial army commander ronglu even order imperial troops to attack the boxers to protect the foreign legations. manchu court got what it deserved for betraying the chinese miltiamen aka boxers as the summer palace was plunder by the foreign troops.

 

[sleaguepunter]

reminds me of Stalingrad...the turning point of WW2.

IMHO, the turning point of WW2 was pearl harbour as US now have an excuse to formally enter the war. in fact, US have to sweat it out for a couple of days before germany declared war on US after arguing from the japanese ambassdor.

 

[motormafia]

No lah it was due to the fault of Traitor GCT's grandpa 吴三桂。

That useless asshole opened the gate of greatwall 三海关 to invite the Manchurians to enter.

That whole fucking motive was because his favorite Geylang Hooker Tony KFC's ancestor 陈圆圆 was captured and fucked by rebel king 李志成 another Lee ancestor. This is all between a small circle of PAP you see?

Traitor Goh make the Manchurian enemy promise to invade the capital and give back the Geylang Hooker KF Chicken Tan, after re-capturing from Lee. That was all, for a Geylang Hooker CB he betrayed entire CUNT-tree and his duty as the guard commander watching the gate of greatwall. :p KNNCB!

http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/196977476.html

陈圆圆原本是江南的一歌妓。1642年崇祯帝的田贵妃病死，田贵妃的父亲田畹为了不使自己被皇帝冷落，特意下江南去给崇祯帝选妃子，讨好皇帝。陈圆圆就这样被选上了。回到北京后，田畹将陈圆圆献给崇祯，崇祯没有接受，于是田畹将陈圆圆带到自己家里。田畹认为皇帝投靠不住可以投靠将领，正巧吴三桂入京勤王，于是田畹将吴三桂请到家里赴宴，并安排陈圆圆出来弹奏。果然吴三桂一眼相中陈圆圆，宴会结束时，吴三桂给田畹扔了很多金银，领着陈圆圆走了。二人找个良辰吉日结婚。没过多久，吴三桂便返回宁远，陈圆圆则留在了家中。
1644年三月，李自成进攻北京，崇祯帝下令各地总兵官入京勤王。叫吴三桂放弃宁远，入京勤王。吴三桂将50万的宁远军民迁到了山海关，安置之后马不停蹄奔向北京，但走到玉田时得知崇祯帝殉国。吴三桂没有办法，只好带着军队回撤到山海关。
李自成入京后，为了扩充国库，于是便下令拷饷。李自成的得力干将刘宗敏此时冲进吴府，羁押了吴三桂的父亲吴襄，又看见了陈圆圆这个小美人，于是也顺便给带走了，进而霸占了她。
李自成此时意识到，他的对手不再是明朝而是关外的清朝，而山海关则是一个重要的军事要塞。山海关总兵吴三桂骁勇善战，如果能够得到他，那么对于大顺朝来说是极其重要的。于是李自成命令唐通前去山海关招降吴三桂。吴三桂同意归降，于是带着军队去北京朝拜李自成，当走到永平西沙河驿站时，遇到从京城里逃出来的家人，家人告诉吴三桂，李自成入京后无恶不作，前朝官员、百姓都遭了秧。父亲吴襄被拷打，敲诈了20万两白银。陈圆圆被霸占。吴三桂听到这些之后认为，李自成乃一草民，不配做皇帝，于是临时改变主意，掉头折回山海关。
李自成得知吴三桂出尔反尔后，亲率20万大军进攻山海关。吴三桂为自保，紧急联系多尔衮，希望多尔衮出兵相助。四月二十一——四月二十二日，李自成与吴三桂激战于山海关，后清军参战，李自成大败，退回北京。杀吴三桂家37口，陈圆圆由于在刘宗敏手里，所以幸免遇难。农民军撤出北京时，刘宗敏想要带走陈圆圆，陈圆圆对刘宗敏说：如果你把我带走，那么我的夫君肯定会追你们的。于是刘宗敏只得放弃陈圆圆，跟着李自成退回陕西。
李自成没有纳陈圆圆为妾，陈圆圆一直在刘宗敏手里。

look like TPL 陈佩铃or not? 陈圆圆:

GCT grandpa 吴三桂:

山海关

 

[Forvendet]

The boxers uprising was just misunderstanding between all the powers involved. The imperial forces involved are rather small in numbers, ard 70K wheras the 8 powers have a total of 50K. For most part, it the Boxers, armed with obselete weapons that oppose the foreign troops while imperial troops try to seperate both sides. The imperial army commander ronglu even order imperial troops to attack the boxers to protect the foreign legations. manchu court got what it deserved for betraying the chinese miltiamen aka boxers as the summer palace was plunder by the foreign troops.

To put things in perspective and proportion, it was a big deal those days to transport 50 - 70k soldiers to China, whether 1 or 11 countries.

 

[sleaguepunter]

As some histroians summed it up, the (later) Ming emperors had treated national issue as if they were family issues. They have disregarded the population at large, and never knew what it meant to lose the hearts of the people. That, to me, was the real reason why a much smaller barbarian tribe could have scored one of the biggest upset in history.

it was claim there was climate change during the 1500s where temperature drop a few degree which affect the crops resulting in crops failure. So in a sense, it was treated as the ming emperor have lose the mandate of heaven. but the real killer blow was the death of general yuan chonghuan who beat back the best of manchu troops for many years. Manchu troops so scare of him that manchu troops purposely attack from a longer route just to avoid yuan chonghuan area of control.

 

[sleaguepunter]

To put things in perspective and proportion, it was a big deal those days to transport 50 - 70k soldiers to China, whether 1 or 11 countries.

the main thing was the 50k foreign troops were not fighting the imperial manchu troops but the poorly armed boxers. in fact the imperial troops attack the boxers too who were armed mainly with spears or pitchfork, opposing them were 50K trained troops equip with firearms and artillery. if your great great grandpapa died in this conflict, the chances he was not killed by a foreign bullet but by a chinese peasant sabre.

 

[red amoeba]

Good point. The British fought and died here and suffered the humiliation all the way to Burma. Wherefrom those talks about British abandonding Singapore? They would have won the war more quickly if not for trying to defend Malaya and Singapore. Just withdraw everything and let us die or survive at the mercy of the Japanese, they go settle Germany and US go settle Japan. Win first, talk later. You die, whoever die, your business. Did they abandon our ancestors for simply pawns of war? The answer is a resounding no. Ingrate is the word I'd use to those who think so. Idiot is the word I'd use to those who think SAF can fight off a force like the Japanese army.

I don't agree with you totally on this.

yes, the british did stay n fight - how many died fighting in Battle of Singapore?

the whole lot either scooted off or surrendered.


alot of Australian soldiers died at Slim river.

How many Malays / Indians / Australian died?

seems to me the locals are the ones defending stoutly - against overwhelming odds.

 

[red amoeba]

IMHO, the turning point of WW2 was pearl harbour as US now have an excuse to formally enter the war. in fact, US have to sweat it out for a couple of days before germany declared war on US after arguing from the japanese ambassdor.

US will say the turning point is the Normandy landings.

But if hitler is not itchy backside go fuck Russia (instead give some land to pacify Russia) - history will be rewritten., Whether US enters war is immaterial.

 

[motormafia]

陈圆圆原本是江南的一歌妓。1642年崇祯帝的田贵妃病死，田贵妃的父亲田畹为了不使自己被皇帝冷落，特意下江南去给崇祯帝选妃子，讨好皇帝。陈圆圆就这样被选上了。回到北京后，田畹将陈圆圆献给崇祯，崇祯没有接受，于是田畹将陈圆圆带到自己家里。田畹认为皇帝投靠不住可以投靠将领，正巧吴三桂入京勤王，于是田畹将吴三桂请到家里赴宴，并安排陈圆圆出来弹奏。果然吴三桂一眼相中陈圆圆，宴会结束时，吴三桂给田畹扔了很多金银，领着陈圆圆走了。二人找个良辰吉日结婚。没过多久，吴三桂便返回宁远，陈圆圆则留在了家中。

陈佩玲原本是Ernst & Young的PAP。2006年11届国会的王世丰因为像名义法师借$5万元丑闻，被选民冷落，特意换掉成傻屄陈佩玲，讨好选民。陈佩玲就这样被选上了。回到马林摆列后，吴作栋将陈佩玲献给选民。选民没有接受，于是捧红反对党的佘雪玲抗衡。吴作栋认为选民投靠不住可以投靠网民，正巧佘雪玲入马林摆列竞选，于是网民将佘雪玲的FACEBOOK炒热。果然选民一眼相中佘雪玲。投票结束时，选民给佘雪玲投了多选票，吴作栋气走了。再也不当什么资政。没过多久，李光耀也不敢当什么资政，气瘫了双腿留在了家中。

:*:

 

[sleaguepunter]

Good point. The British fought and died here and suffered the humiliation all the way to Burma. Wherefrom those talks about British abandonding Singapore? They would have won the war more quickly if not for trying to defend Malaya and Singapore. Just withdraw everything and let us die or survive at the mercy of the Japanese, they go settle Germany and US go settle Japan. Win first, talk later. You die, whoever die, your business. Did they abandon our ancestors for simply pawns of war? The answer is a resounding no. Ingrate is the word I'd use to those who think so. Idiot is the word I'd use to those who think SAF can fight off a force like the Japanese army.

u think the british was here to protect the civilians from jap rule? they were here just to protect UK interests in the far east period.

other than the airplanes where japanese were better, most other elements the british have an edge. The enfield was a much better rifle compare to the arisaka that the IJA was using. the british .303 round was a much better ammo round than the IJA 65mm. The british bren gun was the best LMG of its time. the tanks of IJA were light tanks, so british forces in malaya shd have no problem knocking out with mortars/field guns (which they fail). it not hard to knock out a tank by a infantryman in malaya jungle. The tank crew cannot see shit and it gun may not able to travse due to thick vegetations. i served in armour during NS, so i can qualify to say the main danger to a armour vehicle in a jungle is not a enemy tank but an enemy infantryman as there no way for the crew to spot enemy infantry from attacking from all sides with makeshift anti tank exposive.

 

[sleaguepunter]

US will say the turning point is the Normandy landings.

But if hitler is not itchy backside go fuck Russia (instead give some land to pacify Russia) - history will be rewritten., Whether US enters war is immaterial.

hitler up to then only suffer set back in the battle of moscow. with british hole up in the british isles, the only real enemy was the soviets. After winter, german troops remain on the offensive against the soviet with the soviet remaining on the back foot. US and UK gave lot of aids throughout the course of WW2, ie ammo, planes, supplies,tanks etc etc just to keep soviets in the war. If US didnt enter the war, mean no aid to soviet, then the outcome of the russian front will be anybody guess.

 

[Forvendet]

u think the british was here to protect the civilians from jap rule? they were here just to protect UK interests in the far east period.

I've already agreed with that and said that many times. Anyone expecting free sacrifice to protect you whether from UK or ROC. Anyone not expecting that forthcoming shouldn't be complaining about NS when you're asked to do it. You've just ratified LKY and GKS doctrine and dogma on NS. Congrats.

 

[sleaguepunter]

I've already agreed with that and said that many times. Anyone expecting free sacrifice to protect you whether from UK or ROC. Anyone not expecting that forthcoming shouldn't be complaining about NS when you're asked to do it. You've just ratified LKY and GKS doctrine and dogma on NS. Congrats.

i think u misunderstand my post. my post was about the imcompetent of the british forces and nothing more.

 

[Forvendet]

i think u misunderstand my post. my post was about the imcompetent of the british forces and nothing more.

My point is don't expect everybody to be invincible everytime, don't trust them then do NS don't complain, trust yourself.

What's incompetence, that's very subjective. The British have the best war records in history among all countries, but still can't guarantee a win everytime. You and many are still brainwashed by the LKY shit that the British didn't defend us and we need to be independent and defend ourselves. Good. PAP and NS is what we get. Don't just take my word for it, go google and verify. Have to go home now, bye.

 

[Fook Seng]

but if not for the Manchus..................Wei XiaoBao wouldn't have 7 wives liao !

By the way, is Wei Xiao Bao a true eunuch?

 

[Fook Seng]

My point is don't expect everybody to be invincible everytime, don't trust them then do NS don't complain, trust yourself.

What's incompetence, that's very subjective. The British have the best war records in history among all countries, but still can't guarantee a win everytime. You and many are still brainwashed by the LKY shit that the British didn't defend us and we need to be independent and defend ourselves. Good. PAP and NS is what we get. Don't just take my word for it, go google and verify. Have to go home now, bye.

The fall of Singapore was the doing of one man - Winston Churchill. Not only did he misjudge the Japanese, he also ignored feedback and intelligence from the frontline commanders in SE Asia. When they asked for reinforcement, nothing was forthcoming. That was the British hero for you. But his wrong doing almost changed the final outcome of the war. The lost of Malaya meant the loss of rubber needed to equip military vehicles both on land and the air with wheels. Fortunately some smart engineers invented synthetic rubber. The war would have continued with the Japanese dominating the region if not for the drop of the atom bombs. Even that was a stroke of luck as the Germans were also developing the Bomb. Anyway, the lost of the Far East by the British and the French to the Japs showed how vulnerable the European powers were to the local people. This forced them to eventually dismantle their huge colonial empires.

 

[vamjok]

US will say the turning point is the Normandy landings.

But if hitler is not itchy backside go fuck Russia (instead give some land to pacify Russia) - history will be rewritten., Whether US enters war is immaterial.

yah loh i also think that is the most vital mistake for germany. go fuck russia.

end up russia play mad chess just to pull germany down, willing to die 10 men just to kill 1 german. they are even willing to gas their own men in the process of doing so. insane by our modern days warfare standard

 

[HedgeTrader]

The fall of Singapore was the doing of one man - Winston Churchill. Not only did he misjudge the Japanese, he also ignored feedback and intelligence from the frontline commanders in SE Asia.

World war is all madness of the power countries. Singapore just got caught in middle. Not mad meh? So many countries fighting and killing people all over the world. The maddest one win LOL

yah loh i also think that is the most vital mistake for germany. go fuck russia.

end up russia play mad chess just to pull germany down, willing to die 10 men just to kill 1 german. they are even willing to gas their own men in the process of doing so. insane by our modern days warfare standard

 

[red amoeba]

World war is all madness of the power countries. Singapore just got caught in middle. Not mad meh? So many countries fighting and killing people all over the world. The maddest one win LOL

not only then..now also...

US go invade Iraq just bcos they think they have WMD...after 2 years , find any shit?

then they come up and say - oh wrong intel, after they fucked up the whole country.

and thru all these, Singapore threw her weight behind US. Send SAF as part of peace keeping.

honestly, is this blind faith or what....

its like we joined a gang, we goto go chop somebody jus because the head say so, never mind if it make sense or not.

 

[red amoeba]

The fall of Singapore was the doing of one man - Winston Churchill. Not only did he misjudge the Japanese, he also ignored feedback and intelligence from the frontline commanders in SE Asia. When they asked for reinforcement, nothing was forthcoming. That was the British hero for you. But his wrong doing almost changed the final outcome of the war. The lost of Malaya meant the loss of rubber needed to equip military vehicles both on land and the air with wheels. Fortunately some smart engineers invented synthetic rubber. The war would have continued with the Japanese dominating the region if not for the drop of the atom bombs. Even that was a stroke of luck as the Germans were also developing the Bomb. Anyway, the lost of the Far East by the British and the French to the Japs showed how vulnerable the European powers were to the local people. This forced them to eventually dismantle their huge colonial empires.

rather than blame Churchill, i pin the blame on Chamberlain...appeasement woh...