Why the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

[singveld]

Re: the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

You can call ppl papy dogs, but call european remarkable. The european robbed china under the manchus, and use that money to give back as a loan. You can't see the parallel

yeah they are remarkable, since they travel in small wooden ships from europe, pass africa , pass india and pass singapore to go to china, which is 10 times bigger than them, more people than them and hammer the chinese. That is remarkable.

 

[singveld]

How to resist? The Japanese had broken through the last line of resistance at Pasir Panjang Hill and the Malay Regiment was reduced to just 3 men. Ask Winston Churchill to go to hell.

I am sure when british surrender, POW outnumber the japanese troops several times.

 

[vamjok]

How to resist? The Japanese had broken through the last line of resistance at Pasir Panjang Hill and the Malay Regiment was reduced to just 3 men. Ask Winston Churchill to go to hell.

drag the battle to an all out street fight FIBUA. the jap dogs then surely retreat. this might even be a turning point of the battle in SE asia.

reasons,

they are outnumbered
they run out of food supply
they run out of ammo

when they entered singapore
why cannot ?

situation on the british side is bad, BUT not as bad as the japanese. The jap then was playing a poker game with a lousy hidden card, but his bluff won the battle.

 

[vamjok]

I am sure when british surrender, POW outnumber the japanese troops several times.

i am sure all the POW were wondering why the fuck their commander surrender when they discover the truth that the odds of winning is in their favour.

 

[Ramseth]

I am sure when british surrender, POW outnumber the japanese troops several times.

At Guandu, Yuan Shao with about 800,000 allied troops lost to Cao Cao with about 400,000. Later at Chibi, Cao Cao was on the receiving end of the lesson losing to the Sun-Liu alliance with about 800,000 to 400,000 too. Qin Shihuang killed about 400,000 Zhao soldiers with about 100,000 troops. Later, Chu Bawang killed about 200,000 Qin soldiers with about 50,000 troops. Later, Han Gaozuz reunited China again and forced Chu Bawang into a suicidal surrender with less than 100,000 troops. Much later, Mongolia overran the whole of China with about 100,000 troops versus Liao and Song who had then agreed on a north and south China truce with troops combined in the millions. Much much later, Manchuria overran the whole of China with about 200,000 troops. Much much later, Japan sent about 2 million troops to China and failed. Numbers are not guarantors of victory. Zhuge Liang and Napoleon said it best. Food supply.

 

[singveld]

At Guandu, Yuan Shao with about 800,000 allied troops lost to Cao Cao with about 400,000. Later at Chibi, Cao Cao was on the receiving end of the lesson losing to the Sun-Liu alliance with about 800,000 to 400,000 too. Qin Shihuang killed about 400,000 Zhao soldiers with about 100,000 troops. Later, Chu Bawang killed about 200,000 Qin soldiers with about 50,000 troops. Later, Han Gaozuz reunited China again and forced Chu Bawang into a suicidal surrender with less than 100,000 troops. Much later, Mongolia overran the whole of China with about 100,000 troops versus Liao and Song who had then agreed on a north and south China truce with troops combined in the millions. Much much later, Manchuria overran the whole of China with about 200,000 troops. Much much later, Japan sent about 2 million troops to China and failed. Numbers are not guarantors of victory. Zhuge Liang and Napoleon said it best. Food supply.

true, but if the british have a better commander, he can beat the japanese. But they put a crappy general there, why because singapore was not top military priority at that time. They take the rubbish and throw there, while the best are fighting the germans.

 

[singveld]

i am sure all the POW were wondering why the fuck their commander surrender when they discover the truth that the odds of winning is in their favour.

especially after the japs, starve them, force march them through jungle and murder them. serve them right for surrender to japs. didn't they do the homework when jap fighting in china? stupid poms.

how the fish can they beat the enemy if they dun even know them.

 

[Fook Seng]

I am sure when british surrender, POW outnumber the japanese troops several times.

Do you have figures to back it up?

 

[singveld]

Do you have figures to back it up?

this is not singapore school, where they spoon feed you. this is the real world. Do your own research, i know so.

 

[vamjok]

Do you have figures to back it up?

i believe any lower secondary school textbook can find this.

british outnumber the jap 3 : 1

 

[Ramseth]

i believe any lower secondary school textbook can find this.

british outnumber the jap 3 : 1

Son, the numbers ratio is about there, true. Percival wasn't a weakling or idiot general. He saved most of our ancestors by surrendering. There was already no way of retaking Malaya if continued to fight and Japan retreated to Johor and simply starved Singaporeans and British alike to death. Nobody in Malaya was harmed by the Japanese even in surrender or rather, walkover. The problem in Singapore was the strong Singaporean Chinese support for China. No Chinese in Singapore, including Lim Bo Seng, was really fighting for the British Colony of Singapore. They were fighting the Japanese for China. I also don't know who to blame.

 

[Fook Seng]

drag the battle to an all out street fight FIBUA. the jap dogs then surely retreat. this might even be a turning point of the battle in SE asia.

reasons,

they are outnumbered
they run out of food supply
they run out of ammo

when they entered singapore
why cannot ?

situation on the british side is bad, BUT not as bad as the japanese. The jap then was playing a poker game with a lousy hidden card, but his bluff won the battle.

The Brits committed several errors of judgment. Firstly, Britain's doctrine was that the jungles were impenetrable so the plans for the defense of Singapore did not take this into account. It also gave them the over-confidence that the Japs would be stopped in the jungles of Malaya. There was however one unit the 2nd Battalion Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders under Commanding Officer Ian Stewart, well-trained in jungle warfare, which gave a good account of themselves and won the respect of the Japs. The Japs' bluff, basically was to disguise their lack of superiority in strength and deficiency in logistics and it was supported by their correct use of military tactics to overrun northern Malaya and capture strategic installations, taking over the ammos and food supplies of the British which the Japs jokingly called "Churchill's allowance". They used bicycles to advance rapidly always southwards to Singapore. Where they were forced into the jungles, they carried their bicycles on their shoulders. Their bluff succeeded partly because the breakdown of British intelligence, or rather with senior commanders unwilling to accept intelligence reports from the front line until it was too late and Singapore had to prepare for hasty defense. Here also the poor executed defense plan of Gordon Bennett, Commander of the 8th Australian Division, tasked with defending the Northwestern coastline further facilitated the Japanese advance. His defense deployment which did not include a rear line of defense was easily breached. He was also a cocky fellow who did not listen to advice of his staff officers. At the end of the siege, without informing Percival, he ordered his men to surrender while he escaped by boat to Australia. All these could have been avoided if Governor Shenton Thomas had listened and acted on Percival's request for deliberate defense on the northern coastline. As it was, only a token hasty defense was put up. Once the Japs were in control of the city centre of Singapore, nothing much could be done, Singapore being a Fortress was easily defended by the able IJA.

 

[Fook Seng]

this is not singapore school, where they spoon feed you. this is the real world. Do your own research, i know so.

Many actually took leave before they surrendered. Also many were still fighting in Malaya well after the surrender.

 

[Fook Seng]

i believe any lower secondary school textbook can find this.

british outnumber the jap 3 : 1

This was at the start. But a comment was made on the number who surrendered. There were also others who were still fighting or defended in Malaya after the surrender.

 

[Forvendet]

The Brits committed several errors of judgment.

So clever. Singapore should have sent you to colonize Britain and defend it against Germany.

 

[singveld]

This was at the start. But a comment was made on the number who surrendered. There were also others who were still fighting or defended in Malaya after the surrender.

EPL is very popular in singapore, and england team is the favourite football team of singapore. Let's not rewrite history to make them look good. Ok.

 

[Fook Seng]

So clever. Singapore should have sent you to colonize Britain and defend it against Germany.

This is not what I said. I was just repeating what several historians had been saying. Also one funny fact. If you visit the Surrender Chamber at Fort Siloso, replicating the British surrender, do you see any senior officer of the British party there? Food for thought.

 

[Forvendet]

This is not what I said. I was just repeating what several historians had been saying. Also one funny fact. If you visit the Surrender Chamber at Fort Siloso, replicating the British surrender, do you see any senior officer of the British party there? Food for thought.

Yes. Lt-Gen Percival, senior enough? Equal rank to Lt-Gen. Yamashita. Lose a a battle and surrender, so what? Carry on fighting under those circumstances for British pride, your ancestors might be starved to death and you not be born. Oh yes sorry it slipped my mind, you trust the SAF Brig-Gens and Maj-Gens more now.

 

[Conqueror]

Logistic Nightmare

At Guandu, Yuan Shao with about 800,000 allied troops lost to Cao Cao with about 400,000. Later at Chibi, Cao Cao was on the receiving end of the lesson losing to the Sun-Liu alliance with about 800,000 to 400,000 too. Qin Shihuang killed about 400,000 Zhao soldiers with about 100,000 troops. Later, Chu Bawang killed about 200,000 Qin soldiers with about 50,000 troops. Later, Han Gaozuz reunited China again and forced Chu Bawang into a suicidal surrender with less than 100,000 troops. Much later, Mongolia overran the whole of China with about 100,000 troops versus Liao and Song who had then agreed on a north and south China truce with troops combined in the millions. Much much later, Manchuria overran the whole of China with about 200,000 troops. Much much later, Japan sent about 2 million troops to China and failed. Numbers are not guarantors of victory. Zhuge Liang and Napoleon said it best. Food supply.

Sun Tzu onced quoted that if yer wanna have a 20,000 strong (troop), you need to have your logistic ready. Just imagine feeding 500,000 to a million men per day is already an astronomical figure that probably bankrupt the state coffer in a few months of inactivity (camping, no war). If you let an enemy scouts to burn all your food silos, then you are going to have ...


No bullets, arrows or oil = Defenseless men = Walking targets

No food = Morales low = Defection, Surrender, AWOL, etc.


The Japs did not learn this at all - very stupid. They could be cut off from their important lifeline supplies anytime, anywhere. They didn't have enough men on the ground when they spread themselves out - dono how to play "RISK".


All Buckayrow !

 

[Fook Seng]

true, but if the british have a better commander, he can beat the japanese. But they put a crappy general there, why because singapore was not top military priority at that time. They take the rubbish and throw there, while the best are fighting the germans.

It was not just the commanders. It was the entire support system. Whether it was the call for reinforcement, for resources to establish deliberate defense on the north or their trust in the intelligence reports from the front line, the Central Command, as you have said, did not give priority nor recognition to the seriousness of the situation in Singapore. I don't think Percival was 100% to be blamed as he saw what was coming. He reported to the top but no one listened to him. His surrender was triggered by the surrender of the key defense unit in the northwest under Gordon Bennett who surrendered without consulting him. Yes Bennett was an inapt commander. And Percival's main problem was that he acted as in peacetime seeking approval from his superiors instead of taking his own initiative. Yes, Sir Archibald Wavell, the supreme Allied Commander of the East, had a run in with Winston Churchill and you are right to say that in the eye of Churchill he was only good for operation in a less important theatre. But even that, he was taken aback by the lack of readiness in the island's northern defense. So he was not entirely clueless. As Ramsett has said, it is very difficult to tell who to take the blame. Yes I place the blame on Churchill because he was the one who could change things and for our own selfish reason that he had not given us greater priority. But with the problem in Europe, did he has the choice?