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Shanmugan admits to use of welfarism in S`pore

It simply shows that New Zealand is not the right place to migrate to if one takes into account the children's future and career prospects as well as one's desire for a cozy retirement.

If their parents had the foresight to migrate to say New York City or London or Sydney, then this problem would never have arisen. The children would be mad to want to return to SG unless they were taught Singlish at home which completely supplanted the proper English which they were taught in school. :rolleyes:

There is no "one place fits all" destination on mother earth. There are plenty of Singaporean children that have chosen to make NZ their permanent home. These are the ones who prefer to work at a trade rather than the world of high finance. Singapore is a great option in many fields, NZ is a great option for others. NY can be the best place on earth for those who are at the top of the game but an uphill battle for those who cannot match the competition.

Why knock Singapore? It's simply one of the many places on earth where one can lead a good life. It's by no means the only place but given the constraints under which it operates, I say kudos to the government for doing a great job. Of course there are many options and it's up to each individual to determine his own destiny.
 
.....The fact that you return to your smearing ways again shows that if you are not a PAP IB then you are a person of bad character that I and many ordinary, humble and hard working Singaporeans wouldn't want to associate with. What adversity is there to speak of when one's net worth is in the seven figures and growing.

If you can make it in New York, you can make it anywhere!

The fact that you have to resort to such IB diversion speaks volumes of your debating skill. Pangsai!!!
 
That is in response to your smearing tactics which you have always resorted to when you run out of arguments. You don't know shit about me yet you are liberal enough to imply a whole lot of rubbish. Smearing is in addition to spamming. You even spam your own threads. Evidence of these are splattered all over this forum. Those with eyes can see.

If you have constipation, I suggest you go see a doctor. An arse doctor. :oIo::kma:

The fact that you have to resort to such IB diversion speaks volumes of your debating skill. Pangsai!!!
 
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That is in response to your smearing tactics which you have always resorted to when you run out of arguments. Smearing is in addition to spamming. You even spam your own threads. Evidence of these are splattered all over this forum. Those with eyes can see.

If you have constipation, I suggest you go see a doctor. An arse doctor. :oIo::kma:

Another diversory tactic of bad debaters. Now you call me a spammer splattering all over the forum. Hello, we are talking about Singapore and NZ.
Nevermind, the losers will always win with their tactical diversions and of course with the legendary IB accusation. Banzai!!! Cheers to the Melbourne beautiful four season weather.!!!
 
The fact that you have to resort to such IB diversion speaks volumes of your debating skill. Pangsai!!!

He did the same thing to me too. When he ran out of logical responses, he started the name calling and the insults.

Every person who speaks well of of PAP policy will be classified as a PAP IB. It's a catch all label slapped on anyone who isn't an ardent supporter of "the destroy the PAP at all costs" cause.
 
...If you have constipation, I suggest you go see a doctor. An arse doctor. :oIo::kma:

Haha, okay okay, I will go....A colo-rectal surgeon is not necessary lah. I do not have any constipation lah. Nevermind , be good. You are a valued and knowledgeable forummer. Thank you.
 
There is no "one place fits all" destination on mother earth. There are plenty of Singaporean children that have chosen to make NZ their permanent home. These are the ones who prefer to work at a trade rather than the world of high finance. Singapore is a great option in many fields, NZ is a great option for others. NY can be the best place on earth for those who are at the top of the game but an uphill battle for those who cannot match the competition.

Exactly. Glad to know that you finally managed to grasp the difference between macro and micro. Singapore is a great option for those who excel at balls carrying. I would advise the youth to consider not just the money or the opportunity for skills acquisition but also the question of politics at work as well as the attitude of Sinkie support staff.


Why knock Singapore? It's simply one of the many places on earth where one can lead a good life. It's by no means the only place but given the constraints under which it operates, I say kudos to the government for doing a great job. Of course there are many options and it's up to each individual to determine his own destiny.

Some constraints are natural (Chinese island in Malay sea, small land mass, no natural resources, etc), others are created by a certain political impetus and aided and abetted by a mass of daft voters.

Therefore each should judge for themselves and think CRITICALLY. I for one have never bought into the idea that the government had done a "good" job.

My assessment has always been that they have done a relative bad job but made to look better than they really are by the truly bad performance of the governments in Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, etc and a well oiled propaganda machine (Shit Times, Mediacorpse). Better than these Third World countries is not good enough for me and dare I say for many in the younger generations. Certainly not worth the sacrifices they have been conned to make in terms of a heavily adulterated Westminster model, lack of free press, etc.
 
He did the same thing to me too. When he ran out of logical responses, he started the name calling and the insults.

As an example, anyone can see that I trashed you well and proper with logical arguments in this other thread:

http://sammyboy.com/showthread.php?166570-Shameful-Government-Shameful-PAP/page2

Bald and unsubstantiated statements such as "there's no poverty in Singapore" and "UK and Oz parliamentarians are clowns" are not logical arguments even if it comes from the proprietor of this forum. Picking on a minor fault of parliamentary democracy and making it as if it is the end all or be all of parliaments is also not a good way of debating. Pray tell me what part of MULTI-DIMENSIONAL do you not understand?

Every person who speaks well of of PAP policy will be classified as a PAP IB. It's a catch all label slapped on anyone who isn't an ardent supporter of "the destroy the PAP at all costs" cause.

That is not true. On the other hand, anyone who uses PAP tactics such as smearing, using faulty logic, refuses to meet the point I raised but seeks to distract by digressing, et cetera do indeed run the risk of being called a PAP IB by me and I DO NOT APOLOGISE FOR IT. I try to say something like "either you are a PAP IB or you don't know how to argue".

If you are not versed in the art of debating logically and not through distractions or bald unsubstantiated statements, you can always improve yourself by Googling some choice words and follow the links. It's as easy as that.

By the way, you still have not told us what you did with the AUD 30,000 in Aussie welfare money and you have not denied that using that AUD 30,000 for a purpose that it was not intended for amounts to "cheating on welfare". The point being that it is hypocritical for a welfare cheat to say that welfare encourages cheating by a FEW and therefore ALL should be denied welfare even though MANY truly need and deserve it. Got it? Not too cheem right?
 
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As an example, anyone can see that I trashed you well and proper with logical arguments in this other thread:

http://sammyboy.com/showthread.php?166570-Shameful-Government-Shameful-PAP/page2

Bald and unsubstantiated statements such as "there's no poverty in Singapore" and "UK and Oz parliamentarians are clowns" are not logical arguments even if it comes from the proprietor of this forum. Picking on a minor fault of parliamentary democracy and making it as if it is the end all or be all of parliaments is also not a good way of debating. Pray tell me what part of MULTI-DIMENSIONAL do you not understand?



That is not true. On the other hand, anyone who uses PAP tactics such as smearing, using faulty logic, refuses to meet the point I raised but seeks to distract by digressing, et cetera do indeed run the risk of being called a PAP IB by me and I DO NOT APOLOGISE FOR IT. I try to say something like "either you are a PAP IB or you don't know how to argue".

If you are not versed in the art of debating logically and not through distractions or bald unsubstantiated statements, you can always improve yourself by Googling some choice words and follow the links. It's as easy as that.

By the way, you still have not told us what you did with the AUD 30,000 in Aussie welfare money and you have not denied that using that AUD 30,000 for a purpose that it was not intended for amounts to "cheating on welfare". The point being that it is hypocritical for a welfare cheat to say that welfare encourages cheating by a FEW and therefore ALL should be denied welfare even though MANY truly need and deserve it. Got it? Not too cheem right?

All I need to do is look at the bottom line and the results speak for themselves. You have no answer so you bring up airy fairy words like "multi-dimensional" which means absolutely nothing when it comes to putting food on the table and money in the pocket.

I don't need to play with adjectives and superlatives when it comes to admiring the PAP. You keep asking me to google. I do and up pops cold hard data to prove that Singapore is tops and for that, you have to thank the PAP. GDP, number of billionaires, number of millionaires, unemployment rates, life expectancy rates, infant mortality rates, ease of doing business comparisons, health care, infrastructure development, corruption index etc etc. You name it, Singapore has made a success of it. For that, I am forever grateful to LKY and the PAP.

No matter how you measure Singapore's success, nothing alters the fact that the PAP is one of the world's best governments.
 
Hahahaaa....Mr Google. No need to be apologetic. It's all out there.

It's okay. No need to be more than The Winner and No need to be lesser than The Loser.

ALL IS EMPTINESS at the end of the day. We search our own heart and soul. Has the day passed with honesty?
Have we been honest and truthful to ourselves and to our friends? Banzai!!!
 
I was asked to "google".

1. Singapore best place in the world to do business. http://www.businessinsider.com.au/singapore-tops-list-of-most-business-friendly-countries-2013-10

2. Singapore healthcare system ranked 6th in the world by WHO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Singapore

3. Foreign exchange reserves http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign_exchange_reserves

4. 3rd most competitive nation in the world http://www.imd.org/news/IMD-announc...-results-of-the-Government-Efficiency-Gap.cfm

5. Unemployment.. one of the lowest in the world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate

The list is endless. I could google for the next 3 hours and come up with a huge pile of evidence to prove that the PAP is one of the best governments on earth.

Perhaps I'll do 3 items a day for the next 10 days in order to put this issue to bed once and for all.
 
Hahahaaa....Mr Google. No need to be apologetic. It's all out there.

Google some choice words. I suggest you try "Art of Advocacy" or something like that. Many classic and very useful books have had their copyrights expired. This means they can be downloaded for FREE. Practice makes perfect. Now, don't be lazy. :rolleyes:
 
I was asked to "google".

............

I did not ask you to Google those things. READ CAREFULLY. If you wish to use Google or whatever to reinforce your pre-conceived ideas you can spend the rest of your life doing it for all I care. :*:
 
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I have Singapore friends who arrived in NZ at the same time as I did along with their young children. The children have grown up, graduated and are now looking to make their mark in the world and guess where many of the kids have chosen to make their fortune... good old Singapore.. the land their parents abandoned.

Singapore offers better prospects, a better salary, a more vibrant economy and a more exciting city for the young and the restless and this is the generation that will move the country forward.

I agree that the old fogies may find the pace of life in Singapore daunting and the progress unnerving but it's a small Island and it cannot cater to everyone given the limited space and total lack of natural resources. In making a choice, the government has to plan for the future rather than the past. It's the only prudent option.

The point is that if the parents have remained in Singapore, the kids will be serving NS and indoctrinated into Sinkie way of life.
They may not be as successful if they have not experienced a Kiwi education and lifestyle.
 
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I did not ask you to Google those things. READ CAREFULLY. If you wish to use Google or whatever to reinforce your pre-conceived ideas you can spend the rest of your life doing it for all I care. :*:

So you're saying that bottom line results are not important? :rolleyes:

When it comes to running any organisation and that includes a country, if the bottom line isn't achieved, nothing else matters.

A company can have stirling credentials in terms of carbon footprint, environmental care, social responsibility, care for the community, employee welfare, support for charitable causes and so on. If it does not make a profit every year, the other benchmarks all come to nothing.

The PAP, unlike other governments, knows what is important in the grand scheme of things. It focuses on the issues that matter and that is why Singapore is the success that it is.
 
So you're saying that bottom line results are not important? :rolleyes:

.....................

I am saying a country is different from a corporation. Any five year old will know that and this is ground which had already been covered in the other thread. Try to keep up. :rolleyes:

I was wondering where to stick this, so here it is:


GDP scores quest built on shaky ground
Wasteful mainland capital projects highlight folly of slavish adherence to flawed economic measure, and Keynes deserves some of the blame

Like it or not, the mainland may have to keep depending on investment to drive growth if the government continues to target economic expansion of as much as 7 per cent over the next decade.

SCMP, November 11

One of the counts I have long held against the work of the economist John Maynard Keynes is his part in coming up with the concept of gross domestic product.

Agreed that people like to have some idea of how well their economy is doing and that this can be important to investment planning, but perhaps doing without an overall measure of economic performance is better than relying on a bad one, and GDP is certainly a bad one.

This much was recognised even when it was devised in the middle of the second world war. GDP has its uses in helping government planners estimate how much tax they can collect and how big a military effort they can mount, which is useful during war, but it is much too narrow a measure of economic performance to gauge the wealth of an economy.

It is, for one thing, a form of cash-flow statement that takes no account of how useful any investment project might be or of its useful life. In Europe and America, for instance, it happens occasionally that government builds a public housing block only to demolish it and leave the land idle again when the tenants prove unhappy with it.

In GDP, this counts not as a waste but as two useful capital projects. The costs of construction and demolition are both treated as fixed capital formation and nothing is deducted as a loss on a bad investment. Thus in GDP, one minus one equals two.

But while ignoring common-sense accounting practices, GDP figures confidently assert what no corporate accountant would ever attempt. GDP comes in both nominal dollar of the day figures and in deflated constant price figures. Statisticians make guesses about inflation in different sectors of the economy and then juggle them to provide a "real" economic growth rate.

There are other big uncertainties here and yet we all pretend that economic growth can be measured with precision this way to the right of the decimal when even the first place to left of the decimal is a guess. In reality, what we have with GDP is like an old car with a manual three-speed transmission - (1) zero to 4 per cent growth; (2) 4 to 8 per cent growth; and (3) probable nonsense. Don't even ask for a figure if you're in reverse.

But I think perhaps the worst thing that this obsession with GDP does is focus governments on headline growth numbers, as a form of report card, to the cost of the people whom the economic effort is meant to serve.

Governments face a difficulty, however, in stimulating growth. If people are worried about their jobs or their level of debt, then they won't go shopping and the growth of personal consumption expenditure, the biggest component of GDP in non-fascist economies, will be slow.

Similarly, corporations worried about their balance sheets will generally not expand rapidly and exporters will not sell if overseas markets do not buy. Governments can do nothing about this. The old principle applies: you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

All that governments can really do is expand themselves aggressively, which invariably means big infrastructure projects. This is not a bad thing if lack of decent infrastructure was holding back the rest of an economy and there is a good test of whether it has truly done so. It is whether the rest of the economy then expands as fast the infrastructure spending, allowing for a lag of maybe two or three years.

And on the mainland, fixed-capital formation has been running at more than 40 per cent of GDP for more than 10 years, far above levels elsewhere in the world, while household expenditure has lagged.

There has been no catch-up. The evidence strongly suggests that much of the capital spending is indeed wasteful. Beijing is engaged in an artificial stimulus to push up headline GDP numbers with little regard for real benefit.

And I blame John Maynard Keynes in part for encouraging this wasteful practice.

http://www.scmp.com/business/article/1353840/gdp-scores-quest-built-shaky-ground
 
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I am saying a country is different from a corporation. Any five year old will know that and this is ground which had already been covered in the other thread. Try to keep up. :rolleyes:

I disagree with this statement. It is fundamentally flawed and is responsible for the decline of many countries in recent times since the advent of the welfare state.

A country is no different from a corporation when it comes to the bottom line. While a different management style and structure may be required, at the end of the day, a country still has to pay its way in the world.

Countries that ignore the bottom line will end up dead broke and unable to meet their obligations and the promises that they made to the people.

Cities face the same outcome too. Detroit is a prime example of a city that took its eye off the things that mattered. Without growth and jobs, all the fancy schemes put in place in the name of welfare, fairness and community support mean zilch.

California is another ongoing example. It is home to the wealthiest companies on earth but it's going broke because it emphasised policies to screw the successful and reward the lazy.
 
Google some choice words. I suggest you try "Art of Advocacy" or something like that. Many classic and very useful books have had their copyrights expired. This means they can be downloaded for FREE. Practice makes perfect. Now, don't be lazy. :rolleyes:

Waupiang, you must be ther professor of english literature at the university...or maybe more. You POWER! Uncle no fight...succumbed and surrendered. Go and Practise and Learn and Relearn.Thank you.
 
I disagree with this statement. It is fundamentally flawed and is responsible for the decline of many countries in recent times since the advent of the welfare state.

A country is no different from a corporation when it comes to the bottom line. While a different management style and structure may be required, at the end of the day, a country still has to pay its way in the world.

Countries that ignore the bottom line will end up dead broke and unable to meet their obligations and the promises that they made to the people.

Cities face the same outcome too. Detroit is a prime example of a city that took its eye off the things that mattered. Without growth and jobs, all the fancy schemes put in place in the name of welfare, fairness and community support mean zilch.

California is another ongoing example. It is home to the wealthiest companies on earth but it's going broke because it emphasised policies to screw the successful and reward the lazy.

US cities and states are not good examples. They operate under a Federal system of government where most of the taxes goes to the centre and the monetary system (fiat currency, interest rates, etc) is controlled at the Federal level. In other words, those cities and states are not masters of their own destiny. The point about having to balance the books however remains valid and that is to your credit.

Many of the points have already been covered in the other thread on this topic in the Political folder. For example:

You pay premiums for insurance. If you do not get seriously injured or killed within the validity period of the insurance policy and hence have not "benefited" from having the policy, do you say that it is unfair and sue the insurance company for a refund of all premiums paid to date?



Like I said ad nauseum before. One does not have to copy everything lock, stock and barrel. We can also learn from their negative experiences and build into the system mechanisms for weeding out the true lazy bums.


I don't think the work ethic is that great in the first place. What kind of culture is it when people can boost that they spent their army days as pass C and make friends envious.

In Israel, even people with genuine medical problems try their very best to get into combat roles. For later in life, if others found out that you were a clerk or storeman in your army days, you will be discriminated against. The stigma is that strong and that is as it should be.



Working smart is just as important if not more than working hard. Critical thinking and creativity is what make man king of the apes. It was a creative lazy bum who invented the wheel barrow. That creative genius is also most likely to hate censorship, dictatorship, dirty tricks to fix the opposition, lack of accountability, etc. In other words, creative people with good work ethic hate the PAP.

Unlike the old days when creative geniuses who invented the wheel barrow, crossbow, etc has to live under Qin Shihuang whether they liked it or not because the penalty for trying to emigrate is death by a thousand cuts, now the creative can cross international borders freely and conveniently.

On another note, I agree with you that a welfare state is not a panacea for all of SG's problems, but some features of a welfare state may need to be implemented to rectify problems created by bad policies of the Scums in White accumulated over five decades.

What is paramount to the concept of democracy is: it is for the People to decide what kind of features of a welfare state they want and whether or not they are willing to pay for it and if so how with references to sources of revenue which exist in reality and not just in the imagination. Certainly not for some 90 year old man about to eat joss stick and hardly attends Parliamentary sittings any more but nonetheless controlling all the levers of PUBLIC money to decide.
 
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