New Romance of 3 Kingdom serial drama is out

[Alamaking]

I think Zhuge's 隆中对 did better than Cao Cao's 挟天子以令诸侯, in terms of added value, you know like how our gahmen like to rank the schools here.

Liu Bei was a E8 student b4 隆中对, then suddenly nearly became a top dog A1 student after gong into Shu land.

Just a thought hor, don't drag me into the debate.

LOL, your Zhuge is ugly, hehehe

 

[wikiphile]

I think Zhuge's 隆中对 did better than Cao Cao's 挟天子以令诸侯, in terms of added value, you know like how our gahmen like to rank the schools here.

Liu Bei was a E8 student b4 隆中对, then suddenly nearly became a top dog A1 student after gong into Shu land.

Just a thought hor, don't drag me into the debate.

Everyone had their own strategies and own formulas for trying to unite the realm in those turbulent times, no right or wrong only whether it worked or not. In this aspect Cao Cao did better not politically but by controlling the most fertile, strategic and richest part - The Central Plains.

Compared to 中原， 巴蜀 is more akin to Ulu Sembawang while 中原 is like Bishan/AMK

 

[Maximilian Chua-Heng]

Not forgetting Jing Zhou aka Tanjong Pagar GRC was in the hands of Liu Bei before Guan Yu kena pawned by Lu Meng.

Things could have been different if TP GRC was not lost.

Everyone had their own strategies and own formulas for trying to unite the realm in those turbulent times, no right or wrong only whether it worked or not. In this aspect Cao Cao did better not politically but by controlling the most fertile, strategic and richest part - The Central Plains.

Compared to 中原， 巴蜀 is more akin to Ulu Sembawang while 中原 is like Bishan/AMK

 

[elephanto]

Like Maxi, I have no wish to be dragged into a fastidious debate.

But I am bemused at the way this ongoing spat between subok & alamaking has returned for round 2. This time poor sleaguepunter also on the receiving end of subok's barbs.

Subok, u r entitled to your views.

But I view your following behaviour reprehensible:-

(1) inability to get over the fact that Cao Cao used his own armies' carcasses to cross battlefields. Too inhuman for your queasy stomach? please, it's war. The way the Red Army used their human waves to clear minefields during Korean War & Sino-Vietnam border war of 1978. Ugly? yes, but PRC soldiers aren't as unwilling as you might imagine.

This act of Cao Cao I noticed is recurrent in your contempt of Cao Cao - I believe , that is your pet thorn, no?

(2) I am also a supporter/admirer of Kong Ming over Cao Cao, but unlike you, I see greys amidst black & white. But to you, Cao is balck black. Hence your unsporting use of Darth Vader analogies. Bad use of labels.

(3) The worst & most unsporting crime is to brand pragmatists as PAPPIE supporter, something convenient & underhand labelling practised by the likes of chaopappypoodle, chauvenist & papsmearer. This is by & large an anti-establishment forum. So pls respect fellow forummers sensitivities here - very uncalled for to relate to 66% & what not.

Finally, I am not here to trade insults with you or make new enemies.

I am making a rare & thankless job of daring to speak my mind & giving a fair 3rd party comment. Just as Bro Sneering Tree has done previously in providing an independent opinion of me when others were heaping abuse & insinuating nonsense about my posts.

We may disagree but hope you take it in the right spirit.

To alamaking & sleaguepunter, let's move on & enjoy our forum experience - even for subok & all.

 

[Wang Ye]

(1) inability to get over the fact that Cao Cao used his own armies' carcasses to cross battlefields.

Funny considering that was only on the TV series and that becomes a FACT?

Okay, as a leading Cao Cao expert (having read his bio in the classical form, common form, english translation etc) a few things to clear up with regards to the HISTORICAL PERSON.

1) With regards to his so called famous mantra. It was greatly expanded in the novel but based on a remark that he made. In it's original form in the Book of Wei: He sighed "Rather I wrong them, then be wronged by them."

2) With regards to the so called 72 graves. It is based on folk believe with factual backing. In Cao Cao's last will, he asked only to be buried with a few baskets of everyday items with the specific instruction that NO GOLD, JEWELS AND TREASURE are to be buried with him. It was recorded that he was buried at Gaoling (all the same just have to wait for the tomb to be validated). Cao Cao was a very frugal person and never believed in lavish funerals.

 

[Subok]

Like Maxi, I have no wish to be dragged into a fastidious debate.

But I am bemused at the way this ongoing spat between subok & alamaking has returned for round 2. This time poor sleaguepunter also on the receiving end of subok's barbs.

Subok, u r entitled to your views.

But I view your following behaviour reprehensible:-

(1) inability to get over the fact that Cao Cao used his own armies' carcasses to cross battlefields. Too inhuman for your queasy stomach? please, it's war. The way the Red Army used their human waves to clear minefields during Korean War & Sino-Vietnam border war of 1978. Ugly? yes, but PRC soldiers aren't as unwilling as you might imagine.

This act of Cao Cao I noticed is recurrent in your contempt of Cao Cao - I believe , that is your pet thorn, no?

(2) I am also a supporter/admirer of Kong Ming over Cao Cao, but unlike you, I see greys amidst black & white. But to you, Cao is balck black. Hence your unsporting use of Darth Vader analogies. Bad use of labels.

(3) The worst & most unsporting crime is to brand pragmatists as PAPPIE supporter, something convenient & underhand labelling practised by the likes of chaopappypoodle, chauvenist & papsmearer. This is by & large an anti-establishment forum. So pls respect fellow forummers sensitivities here - very uncalled for to relate to 66% & what not.

Finally, I am not here to trade insults with you or make new enemies.

I am making a rare & thankless job of daring to speak my mind & giving a fair 3rd party comment. Just as Bro Sneering Tree has done previously in providing an independent opinion of me when others were heaping abuse & insinuating nonsense about my posts.

We may disagree but hope you take it in the right spirit.

To alamaking & sleaguepunter, let's move on & enjoy our forum experience - even for subok & all.

If you had followed closely, I had already LONG stated, there will be a divide nevertheless and we agree to disagree. My perception of Cao Cao is of my own and IMHO he is NO HERO and the new show rightly or wrongly redeem Cao Cao of being a 奸雄 instead honor him as a 枭雄。

With due respect, I believe unless you are of caliber of Kong Ming, I sincerely believe that you read my postings and did not grasp it.

There will always be people on the other side of the fence and I am not offended that by that. BUT I took offense when they MUST exalt Cao Cao of a status of a HERO in MY dictionary.

Cao Cao was such a person - will use any means to an end, while on the other side of the spectrum Liu Bei will use any ends to end a means.

The equilibrium here is lapses in humanity from Cao Cao is tolerated while however noteworthy "benevolence" of Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang is viewed with stupidity. huh? duh! So for Cao Cao to err he is only being human? and for Liu Bei to show any weakness is inferiority?

If we can allow for Cao Cao deviance ways to be tolerated as "casualty or necessity of war" then why in the same empathy we allow for Liu Bei's "idealistic" advancement of human goodness?

Contributions of Zhuge Liang is seen even till today while Cao Cao's body is still hiding from the great public. Without in-depth understanding of why and when and what in Chinese history, an Emperor, or a Leader, in this case Cao Cao instructions to even hide his own dead body after death, in itself is an answer to the great divide. At least, for this matter, I salute Cao Cao, for he knows his own ends.

The entire episode is so sad as empty and seriously empty vessels making noise with NOTHINg scholastic to contribute other than Cao Cao is my Hero. Proof? Where?

In Chinese history, honored leaders were often consecrated in latter days as saint/demi gods, like Guan Yu, Zhuge Liang, Liu bei, etc but I really cannot say the same for Cao Cao. Why?

Rather than sticking to personal favorite for the sake of exaltation, shows tangible proof TODAY. The living glory of the deceased.

The conclusion can only be ONE - it is either Liu Bei and gang had bride the ENTIRE generation of their time to falsely chronicles their heroic acts or through oral traditions, OR Cao Cao was indeed been vilified in history.

There is nothing wrong with Satanic worship in the worshipers perspective. Likewise there can be NO wrong for idolizing CAo CAo or even Hilter. But it is WRONG when you persist to INSIST your HERO "statutory rights" over others.

And if you are mature enough, detractors in my point of view, conveniently skirted around issues they cannot handle and keep hammering on the goodness of Cao Cao. One who do not even know how a dynasty decides to locate their palaces that ensures the longevity of the reign, and how these decisions are still relevant today, is not fit to take a view, cause insofar whatever comes out of that person is just croaking from the well. And that in this case is ALamaking position. I would like to believe the former is someone of intelligence just as he/she had carried in other threads but sadly other than an overwhelming sympathizing overture, chest beating shouting for his perceived HERO. And he/she greatly personified this sentence - better to keep quiet than to have all doubts answered -and he/she answered.

 

[Subok]

Funny considering that was only on the TV series and that becomes a FACT?

Okay, as a leading Cao Cao expert (having read his bio in the classical form, common form, english translation etc) a few things to clear up with regards to the HISTORICAL PERSON.

1) With regards to his so called famous mantra. It was greatly expanded in the novel but based on a remark that he made. In it's original form in the Book of Wei: He sighed "Rather I wrong them, then be wronged by them."

2) With regards to the so called 72 graves. It is based on folk believe with factual backing. In Cao Cao's last will, he asked only to be buried with a few baskets of everyday items with the specific instruction that NO GOLD, JEWELS AND TREASURE are to be buried with him. It was recorded that he was buried at Gaoling (all the same just have to wait for the tomb to be validated). Cao Cao was a very frugal person and never believed in lavish funerals.

Yes the records was "Rather I wrong them, then be wronged by them". If you notice the intentional cinematography to act out that line. At first it was of much regrets that Cao Cao wronged others and He had killed them by mistake. Then as if a stoke of deviance in him suddenly wakes up and to paraphrase this scene in today's language it would be: -

"I rather wrong them, then to be wronged by them" (Note: here can be interpreted as - I rather be the one who commit the mistake than for them to commit it against me) then in there same moment the same sentence were spoken again with the indentation added by me to explain what he actually mean the second time - "F**K IT!!! SO WHAT!!" I rather WRONG them, then to be WRONGED by them!"- in this instance, the entire meaning changes. Cao Cao chooses to defies law of nature instead ride above it. If anything to go by, this sentence is of paramount importance to the development of Cao Cao later career. Perhaps, this was the point of Cao Cao's own baptism of fire, where he choose to move away from perceived righteousness. And it was in this wretched occasion where Cao Cao was at the lowest point of his life, a criminal on the run, a fail assassination, Cao Cao bloodied hands, washed with his kins blood, realizes that it does not pay to be good. Therefore rather wrong others than for others to wrong him.


2. Second point, IT was not a folklore that Cao Cao ordered for many graves to be erected in his name for fear of his tomb being desecrated. Please SIR, do check your facts on this matter, the Chinese Archeologists had over time, dug and discovered many graves dedicated to Cao Cao, IT IS NOT A FOLKLORE or URBAN myth. Until recently, a new grave was discovered, with military seal believed belonging Cao Cao. It created quite a stir but soon enough though its authenticity has not been decided but because of too many false alarms, Chinese Archeologists are slow in delivering the final verdict.

 

[Alamaking]

So i cannot called Cao Cao a hero, you can called Cao Cao a sore loser? hur hur hur. No wonder you cry seeing Liu Bei grave, same kind 1, low EQ LOL :p:p:p

 

[Subok]

And if I may be allowed to sum it all in a nutshell.

Whether be it Cao Cao or Liu Bei or even Zhuge Liang for that matter, most of them if not all, have their ambitions run in tandem with each other albeit grey, white or black. But each is a reflection of the other. Without Cao Cao deviance ways, there will be no ways to measure Liu Bei's benevolence. or "A chaque action, une réaction égale et opposée"

If there was no Cao Cao, there will be no Liu Bei to talk about. IF there is no evil, there is no need for goodness.

Cao Cao DID not enjoy populace support. If he DID, then history would had vindicated him and there will be no need for himself to decide for himself to hide himself from the beloved populace who would "worship" or "pay their last respect" to himself after his death.

Cao Cao IS a sore loser. He could not stand as a benevolent Emperor as much as he wished to be, and sadly, he was limited by his own standing and charisma to only 挟天子以令诸侯. He knew the ground was not sweet for him to be an emperor which he paved the way then for his descendants. To keep his weight in the imperial court, he bestowed himself with special concessionary rights not to bow to the emperor. Knees bowed, with a scabbard closely kept by his side, again a privilege only he enjoyed. In today's psychology studies of Cao Cao, he would be rendered as someone insecure and perhaps someone with "bad childhood".

Was it not then that it was precisely his inadequatecy he sought to hide from the public by exalting himself above the emperor, and leadership - with scabbard closely kept next to him reserve for those who disagree.

In an ancient chinese saying, you put a pack of wolves behind the leadership lamb, they will be rendered as harmless wolves, tamed by the lamb. If you put a flock of lamb under the leadership of a vicious wolf, the latter would become as informiable and fearless as a wolf.

In a kernel of the Nutshell, 物以类聚人以群分

 

[Subok]

So i cannot called Cao Cao a hero, you can called Cao Cao a sore loser? hur hur hur. No wonder you cry seeing Liu Bei grave, same kind 1, LOL :p:p:p

why I even bother? ...

na... here's a rubber duckie - now go on humor yourself...

 

[Alamaking]

why i even bother? ...

Na... Here's a rubber duckie - now go on humor yourself...

hahaha :p:p:p you poor thing

 

[Subok]

hahaha :p:p:p you poor thing

my condolence to the Sorghastrom Endometrium that brought forth you. I would wish to be able to address you as the Esteemed rebut-tor, however, .... while I feed you meat, while you poor Canis lupus familiaris would prefer incessant cry for attentions over worthless bone.

 

[Subok]

So i cannot called Cao Cao a hero, you can called Cao Cao a sore loser? hur hur hur. No wonder you cry seeing Liu Bei grave, same kind 1, low EQ LOL :p:p:p

Apologies... Liu Bei fare the badly in IQ over Cao Cao, but EQ, Cao Cao is no where near.

Again you poor Canis lupus familiaris, do not even know what you are talking about.

If only the process of your exit from a Sorghastrom Endometrium could be reversed so as not to bring further embarrassment to the honored Sorghastrom Endometrium.

 

[Alamaking]

my condolence to the Sorghastrom Endometrium that brought forth you. I would wish to be able to address you as the Esteemed rebut-tor, however, .... while I feed you meat, while you poor Canis lupus familiaris would prefer incessant cry for attentions over worthless bone.

Awwww~~~ use cheem words wont cover your claims of 5 tigers 1 , please go on and rant, poor thing

 

[Subok]

Awwww~~~ use cheem words wont cover your claims of 5 tigers 1 , please go on and rant, poor thing

Is that all you can do?

 

[Alamaking]

Haiyoh, want to say cheebye, say cheebye lah, use cheem words to describe cheebye for what? its still a cheebye what, LOL

Not saying you a cheebye hor, dun be sensitive :p:p:p

 

[Subok]

Awwww~~~ use cheem words wont cover your claims of 5 tigers 1 , please go on and rant, poor thing

but everything else aside this is really a GREAT show you recommend!

typical dare devil speaking chili pepper china gals.. .!!

thanks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPnwuhS-AH0

 

[Subok]

Haiyoh, want to say cheebye, say cheebye lah, use cheem words to describe cheebye for what? its still a cheebye what, LOL

Not saying you a cheebye hor, dun be sensitive :p:p:p

did I? :p did I? did I? did I....

 

[Alamaking]

but everything else aside this is really a GREAT show you recommend!

typical dare devil speaking chili pepper china gals.. .!!

thanks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPnwuhS-AH0

Oh, you are most welcome LOL

 

[Wang Ye]

And it was in this wretched occasion where Cao Cao was at the lowest point of his life, a criminal on the run, a fail assassination, Cao Cao bloodied hands, washed with his kins blood, realizes that it does not pay to be good. Therefore rather wrong others than for others to wrong him.


2. Second point, IT was not a folklore that Cao Cao ordered for many graves to be erected in his name for fear of his tomb being desecrated. Please SIR, do check your facts on this matter, the Chinese Archeologists had over time, dug and discovered many graves dedicated to Cao Cao, IT IS NOT A FOLKLORE or URBAN myth. Until recently, a new grave was discovered, with military seal believed belonging Cao Cao. It created quite a stir but soon enough though its authenticity has not been decided but because of too many false alarms, Chinese Archeologists are slow in delivering the final verdict.

1) They were old friends of the family and not blood kin.

2) Having spent years reading up on material (be it written articles, books, documentaries) with regards to this era I do believe that my facts on this matter is sufficient. Your so-called lot of graves were not "dedicated" to Cao Cao but rather believed to his. Incidentally they were all found to be post-3 Kingdom era graves.