Goh Meng Seng's Tampines Journey - Watch this Space

[IR123]

That's when there was only (3 minus 2) 1 NCMP seat available. Now that there'll be 9 to 12 seats available, even high 20s have low but possible chances of landing NCMP seats.

If what you said is correct, then it will lead to 2 situations:

(1) the opposition candidate, especially if he is standing on homeground (meaning the same constituency as before) will know the likely percentage he can get in the coming election and thereby gauge his chances of getting the NCMP seats

Votes for the opposition are unlikely to be swayed towards the PAP. Thus he will know if his base is enough to secure him a parlimentary presence.

His competitors will be other opposition candidates in other GRCs.​

(2) if the same point is brought to the electorate - that the opposition supporters will continue to vote opposition - then the incentive for trying out new oppositions by voting them in is no longer there. After all, 9 oppositions will be present in parliament.


However if a person thinks that logical arguments will reflect future reality (logical arguments can only indicate possible futures), then they should learn from the PAP. Despite having so much factors in their favour, they are not leaving anything to chance.

The most important is the electorate. There seem to be many activities favouring the electorate that is going on. Thus in that respect, sampierre has a strong point. Without the favour of the electorate, nothing gets done. The focus must be on the electorate. I thought of writing a detailed comparison between the oppositions and the PAP in courting the electorate but decided not to waste my time.

I hope the oppositions get their act together (GMS excluded). They looked like they are engaging in another futile endeavour.

 

[elephanto]

sampierre, i notice you are very hot & hysterical when anyone remotely suggested acceptance of NCMP, immediately you would label them as PAPPY or worse.

Given even our remarkable opp politicians like JBJ & Lee Siew Choh have been NCMPs before, you are simply being unreasonable to people who disagree with you on this.

I cannot help but feel your outright rejection of NCMP is akin to Barisan walking out & boycotting Parliament all those years ago leading to the history of one-party House until 1981.

However to be balanced, I feel the NCMP idea has its relevance to the Opposition Cause but it is also changing with time.

Now that PAP intends to have at least 9 opposing voices, does the existence of NCMP discourage citizens from voting opposition remains to be carefully studied.

For me for now, Opposition should make use of every opportunity available to demonstrate their credibility to the electorate - and being NCMP is one way until it can be conclusively proven that it is against Opposition's interest to be one.

Flame me all you want if you want to be a fascist.

 

[sampierre]

if what you said is correct, then it will lead to 2 situations:

(1) the opposition candidate, especially if he is standing on homeground (meaning the same constituency as before) will know the likely percentage he can get in the coming election and thereby gauge his chances of getting the ncmp seats

votes for the opposition are unlikely to be swayed towards the pap. Thus he will know if his base is enough to secure him a parlimentary presence.

His competitors will be other opposition candidates in other grcs.​

(2) if the same point is brought to the electorate - that the opposition supporters will continue to vote opposition - then the incentive for trying out new oppositions by voting them in is no longer there. After all, 9 oppositions will be present in parliament.


However if a person thinks that logical arguments will reflect future reality (logical arguments can only indicate possible futures), then they should learn from the pap. Despite having so much factors in their favour, they are not leaving anything to chance.

The most important is the electorate. There seem to be many activities favouring the electorate that is going on. Thus in that respect, sampierre has a strong point. Without the favour of the electorate, nothing gets done. The focus must be on the electorate. I thought of writing a detailed comparison between the oppositions and the pap in courting the electorate but decided not to waste my time.

i hope the oppositions get their act together (gms excluded). they looked like they are engaging in another futile endeavour.

Why should GMS be excluded from getting his act together?
If I were to look at the activities carried out byNSP members on NSP website, there's probably only one visit to Tampines GRC last year.
Seriously, I want Goh Meng Seng to tell us here whether NSP has done enough groundwork for the past 2 years in Tampines -- or whatever GRC?/SMC---- to justify winning at least a SMC, let alone a grc, in the upcoming elections.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Why should GMS be excluded from getting his act together?
If I were to look at the activities carried out byNSP members on NSP website, there's probably only one visit to Tampines GRC last year.
Seriously, I want Goh Meng Seng to tell us here whether NSP has done enough groundwork for the past 2 years in Tampines -- or whatever GRC?/SMC---- to justify winning at least a SMC, let alone a grc, in the upcoming elections.

I do not need to tell you and PAP how many times I have walked the ground in Tampines. Tampines residents will notice our presence or non-presence.

But I could tell you straight that there are definitely more than 1 visit to Tampines GRC last year.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[sampierre]

[QUOTE=elephanto;411478]
Given even our remarkable opp politicians like JBJ & Lee Siew Choh have been NCMPs before, you are simply being unreasonable to people who disagree with you on this.

Flame me all you want if you want to be a fascist.[/QUOTE]

Friend,

Please read my earlier posts regarding people like JBJ & Dr Lee Siew Choh accepting NCMP seats. When the NCMP scheme was implemented in 1988, I was quite neutral about Opposition accepting the seats, partly because the NCMP allowance is quite useful for the Opposition finances. If I remember correctly, from 1988 till 2001, the NCMP allowance/ salary was only about $1,000 less-- because of clerical assistant's allowance-- than a fully elected MP's monthly salary. In 1997, an elected MP was drawing $11,000 /mth whereas an NCMP got close to $10,000/mth. Both JBJ and Dr Lee enjoyed such benefits which in turn also benefitted WP finances.
BUT EVER SINCE STEVE CHIA BECAME NCMP IN YR2002, THE NCMP ALLOWANCE WAS GREATLY REDUCED TO ONLY $1,600 /MTH, WHILE CURRENTLY AN ELECTED MP DRAWS $17,000/ MTH. DON'T BELIEVE, JUST ASK SYLVIA LIM HOW MUCH SHE'S GETTING NOW.

I MAY SERIOUSLY RE-CONSIDER MY POSTION ON THE NCMP ISSUE IF THE PAP DECIDES TO PAY THE NEXT BATCH OF NCMP'S THE SAME SALARY AS WHAT AN ELECTED MP GETS MINUS THE $1,000 CLERICAL ALLOWANCE.

As things stand now, it's just NOT worth it to accept NCMP seats from a financial as well as a political viewpoint. After 22 years since 1988, the Opposition is still struggling like crazy to build a credible presence in parliament. UNFORTUNATELY, the Oppostion has also become more complacent simply becos they are happy to secure NCMP seats.

 

[sampierre]

I do not need to tell you and PAP how many times I have walked the ground in Tampines. Tampines residents will notice our presence or non-presence.
But I could tell you straight that there are definitely more than 1 visit to Tampines GRC last year.

Goh Meng Seng

GMS,
What I am referring to is GROUNDWORK, NOT just distributing party papers at Tampines MRT station and coffeeshops at Street 11 for a couple of hours.
I'm talking about organising activities for the residents on a regular basis. Thast's how you bond with these voters!!! Obviously, you did NOT seem to learn from Low Thia Khiang (when you were with WP) on this aspect of grassroots politics.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

GMS,
What I am referring to is GROUNDWORK, NOT just distributing party papers at Tampines MRT station and coffeeshops at Street 11 for a couple of hours.
I'm talking about organising activities for the residents on a regular basis. Thast's how you bond with these voters!!! Obviously, you did NOT seem to learn from Low Thia Khiang (when you were with WP) on this aspect of grassroots politics.

Dear Sampierre,

There are many forms and definitions of "Groundwork". Organizing activities for residents? It is not as simple as you think. Mr. Low Thia Khiang did not win Hougang in 1991 by organizing activities for those residents. You must have get it wrong.

Yes, he did organize activities for Hougang AFTER he won, not before. From the logistics perspective, it is almost impossible to reach out to residents and get them to participate in whatever organized activities within a short period of time if you do not control the Town Council whereby the message and advertisement of the said activities could be disseminated through noticeboards owned by the Town Council.

PAP could do that through many ways, RC noticeboards, Town Council noticeboards or their branches.

Sometimes, we must be realistic in our approaches. And the key is not about organizing activities. We couldn't possibly beat PA's RCs and CCCs in resources to organize activities, could we? Don't try to compete with our opponents on our weakness, but on our strength. That's the basic principle of political engagement.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[kingrant]

Makes a lot of sense. Fully support that.

For me for now, Opposition should make use of every opportunity available to demonstrate their credibility to the electorate - and being NCMP is one way until it can be conclusively proven that it is against Opposition's interest to be one.

 

[3_M]

For me for now, Opposition should make use of every opportunity available to demonstrate their credibility to the electorate - and being NCMP is one way until it can be conclusively proven that it is against Opposition's interest to be one.

Flame me all you want if you want to be a fascist.

Let Sylvia Lim be the litmus test of it usefulness. If her stint as a NCMP for the past 4 years did help to improve her level of support in the next GE.

 

[aurvandil]

Let Sylvia Lim be the litmus test of it usefulness. If her stint as a NCMP for the past 4 years did help to improve her level of support in the next GE.

It is unlikely that Slyvia Lim will fight the GRC on her own. They have a king card and the ground is sweet.

 

[3_M]

It is unlikely that Slyvia Lim will fight the GRC on her own. They have a king card and the ground is sweet.

I also heard rumour regarding this but WP is not saying anything at the moment.

 

[sampierre]

Dear Sampierre,

There are many forms and definitions of "Groundwork". Organizing activities for residents? It is not as simple as you think. Mr. Low Thia Khiang did not win Hougang in 1991 by organizing activities for those residents. You must have get it wrong.
reply : Hougang was only formed in 1988 and the then PAP MP Tang Guan Seng was reportedly unable to bond well with the Teochew-speaking residents. So in 1991 GE, there was a strong element of luck going for Mr Low. DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE A STRONG ELEMENT OF LUCK GOING FOR YOU IN TAMPINES THIS TIME ?????????
Yes, he did organize activities for Hougang AFTER he won, not before. From the logistics perspective, it is almost impossible to reach out to residents and get them to participate in whatever organized activities within a short period of time if you do not control the Town Council whereby the message and advertisement of the said activities could be disseminated through noticeboards owned by the Town Council.

PAP could do that through many ways, RC noticeboards, Town Council noticeboards or their branches.

Goh Meng Seng

My friend GMS,

IF YOU THINK IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO ORGANISE ACTIVITIES FOR THE RESIDENTS, THEN IT'S GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT !! IT'S ALL IN THE MIND, OK?? PLEASE READ MY PREVIOUS POST IN WHICH I'VE OFFERED SOME SUGGESTIONS OF GETTING AROUND THIS PROBLEM THAT YOU DESCRIBED ABOVE. BY THE WAY, SINCE YOU HAVE A SHOP IN TAMPINES, YOU COULD ALSO USE IT AS A FOCAL POINT TO ORGANISE ACTIVITIES. ALSO, YOU CAN USE OF YOUR NSP WEBSITE TO ADVERTISE YOUR ACTIVITIES .
MY POINT IS, YOU REALLY REALLY NEED TO PUT IN ALOT OF GROUNDWORK IF YOU ASPIRE TO BE AN ELECTED MP.
IF YOU JUST WANT TO BE NCMP, THEN I'VE NOTHING TO SAY.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

My friend GMS,

IF YOU THINK IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO ORGANISE ACTIVITIES FOR THE RESIDENTS, THEN IT'S GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT !! IT'S ALL IN THE MIND, OK?? PLEASE READ MY PREVIOUS POST IN WHICH I'VE OFFERED SOME SUGGESTIONS OF GETTING AROUND THIS PROBLEM THAT YOU DESCRIBED ABOVE. BY THE WAY, SINCE YOU HAVE A SHOP IN TAMPINES, YOU COULD ALSO USE IT AS A FOCAL POINT TO ORGANISE ACTIVITIES. ALSO, YOU CAN USE OF YOUR NSP WEBSITE TO ADVERTISE YOUR ACTIVITIES .
MY POINT IS, YOU REALLY REALLY NEED TO PUT IN ALOT OF GROUNDWORK IF YOU ASPIRE TO BE AN ELECTED MP.
IF YOU JUST WANT TO BE NCMP, THEN I'VE NOTHING TO SAY.

Starting anything is easy, but to sustain it is another matter.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[aurvandil]

Sometimes, we must be realistic in our approaches. And the key is not about organizing activities. We couldn't possibly beat PA's RCs and CCCs in resources to organize activities, could we? Don't try to compete with our opponents on our weakness, but on our strength. That's the basic principle of political engagement.

Goh Meng Seng

Has anyone actually atteneded one of these PA/RC/CCC events?

If you have, you will notice it is always the same group of people who go for multiple events. Many of them are quite old and you seldom see young faces in the crowd. You also don't see many foreigners despite the media hype and intense efforts to get them to participate.

The time and energies of most Singaporeans are spent making ends meet. After putting in 10 to 12 hours a day, who has time to attend a PA/RC/CCC event? Even on weekends, there is precious little time to spend with family and loved ones. With all the exciting alternatives (ION, VIVO City, IR, movies etc), would you want to waste it on a PA/RC/CCC event?

 

[Sideswipe]

Has anyone actually atteneded one of these PA/RC/CCC events?

If you have, you will notice it is always the same group of people who go for multiple events. Many of them are quite old and you seldom see young faces in the crowd. You also don't see many foreigners despite the media hype and intense efforts to get them to participate.

The time and energies of most Singaporeans are spent making ends meet. After putting in 10 to 12 hours a day, who has time to attend a PA/RC/CCC event? Even on weekends, there is precious little time to spend with family and loved ones. With all the exciting alternatives (ION, VIVO City, IR, movies etc), would you want to waste it on a PA/RC/CCC event?

agree.

I am never convinced when bros here said how strong and influential PAP grassroots network are.

Nobody are interested in going for a PA/RC/CCC event and likewise few want to attend an opposition community activities on a Sunday morning too.

 

[sampierre]

[QUOTE=Sideswipe;411811]agree.

I am never convinced when bros here said how strong and influential PAP grassroots network are.

Nobody are interested in going for a PA/RC/CCC event and likewise few want to attend an opposition community activities on a Sunday morning too.[/QUOTE]

Dear Sideswipe & Aurvandil,

Either both of you are just plain stupid, ignorant, or PAP supporters in disguise! You miss the gist of my message on the importance of organising grassroots activities . I'm NOT interested in whether PAP functions are well-attended by residents or not (they are , in fact, especially children's parties & bursary award events attended by parents & grandparents. PAP MPs have high visibility in such events).

ANY SERIOUS OPPOSTION CANDIDATE WHO WANTS TO CONTEST IN ANY CONSTITUENCY OR GRC MUST CULTIVATE RESIDENTS' SUPPORT FIRST AND FOREMOST. YOU CANNOT WIN ELECTIONS JUST BY CHALLENGING A MINISTER TO A DEBATE OR JUST BY ISSUING PRESS STATEMENTS DURING ELECTION TIME, OR MAKING ELECTION RALLY SPEECHES. GOING TO THE MRT STATION AND THE COFFEE SHOPS TO DISTRIBUTE PARTY PAMPHLETS MAYBE USEFUL UP TO A POINT, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO BONDING WITH RESIDENTS, YOU NEED TO HAVE PLANNED EVENTS TO ALLOW YOU TO SPEND QUALITY TIME WITH RESIDENTS/VOTERS. YOUR VISIBILITY ON THE GROUND IS HIGHLY ENHANCED THRU SUCH ACTIVITIES. WHETHER 50 RESIDENTS OR 500 RESIDENTS ATTEND YOUR FUNCTION IS IRRELEVANT. A DETERMINED CANDIDATE WOULD JUST HAVE CONTINUE PUTTING IN MORE EFFORT TO GET TO KNOW THE RESIDENTS BETTER.
THIS IS UNFORTUNATELY NOT HAPPENING IN TAMPINES GRC.
HOWEVER, IT'S STILL NOT TOO LATE FOR GMS/NSP TO SALVAGE THE SITUATION.

 

[elephanto]

ANY SERIOUS OPPOSTION CANDIDATE WHO WANTS TO CONTEST IN ANY CONSTITUENCY OR GRC MUST CULTIVATE RESIDENTS' SUPPORT FIRST AND FOREMOST. YOU CANNOT WIN ELECTIONS JUST BY CHALLENGING A MINISTER TO A DEBATE OR JUST BY ISSUING PRESS STATEMENTS DURING ELECTION TIME, OR MAKING ELECTION RALLY SPEECHES. GOING TO THE MRT STATION AND THE COFFEE SHOPS TO DISTRIBUTE PARTY PAMPHLETS MAYBE USEFUL UP TO A POINT, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO BONDING WITH RESIDENTS, YOU NEED TO HAVE PLANNED EVENTS TO ALLOW YOU TO SPEND QUALITY TIME WITH RESIDENTS/VOTERS. YOUR VISIBILITY ON THE GROUND IS HIGHLY ENHANCED THRU SUCH ACTIVITIES
THIS IS UNFORTUNATELY NOT HAPPENING IN TAMPINES GRC.
HOWEVER, IT'S STILL NOT TOO LATE FOR GMS/NSP TO SALVAGE THE SITUATION.

Bro Sampierre, nobody can seriously argue with your point about cultivating residents' support.

But surely organizing those events you have in mind costs resources. Is it a realistic demand & can the Opp parties afford such expense, manpower or money wise knowing election deposit demands are not small ?

They may be unique in charisma or circumstance then, but JBJ, Chiam & LTK certainly did not do what you suggested (not saying suggestion has no merits) but still got elected because their inspiring speeches and more importantly, their strategic exploitation of the prevalent mood then.

Let's support our few credible opposition.
By all means, give your sincere & heartfelt opinions.
But they are the people having to really MAKE things happen.

Do not let our frustration create counter-productive vibes for all.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[sampierre]

Bro Sampierre, nobody can seriously argue with your point about cultivating residents' support.

But surely organizing those events you have in mind costs resources. Is it a realistic demand & can the Opp parties afford such expense, manpower or money wise knowing election deposit demands are not small ?

They may be unique in charisma or circumstance then, but JBJ, Chiam & LTK certainly did not do what you suggested (not saying suggestion has no merits) but still got elected because their inspiring speeches and more importantly, their strategic exploitation of the prevalent mood then.

Dear Friend,

Let me say upfront that I WANT my good friend GMS and his NSP team to win in Tampines GRC (or any SMC/GRC for that matter). But I feel that as an Opposition supporter, I have to "WAKE UP" his silly idea of just hoping to secure NCMP seats to sneak into Parliament "by hook or by crook" as he put it (sure, as a friend, I'll still vote for him no matter what silly idea he has in mind, BUT other voters may see him as a clown and may not want to vote NSP).
On the issue of finances, please refer to my previous posts in which I've mentioned some activities that won't cost a bomb just to organise. Sure, you MUST spend money and time to cultivate residents' support, there's no 2 ways about it. If you're NOT prepared to spend say, $1,000 to organise a buffet gathering for residents, then you might as well call off the whole campaign!! Anyway, I don't think NSP is a poor party. Its founder is Mr Tan Chee Kien who's the CEO of a local MNC. I'm sure he can do something about finances. We cannot keep on saying that opposition parties have no money, no this & no that, and forever we'll only have token opposition in Parliament . I have been observing Singapore politics for many years now, and each time when GE is around the corner, people in Sammyboy's forum would say silly things like "the ground is sweet for the Opposition". And each time, the results are predictably in favour of PAP. This time is no different, my friend !

On the 2nd point, sorry, I do NOT rate GMS or any other Opposiition candidate as someone in the same class as JBJ, Chiam, LTK, Tang Liang Hong, Francis Seow, and Dr Lee Siew Choh. By the way, Chiam, who does not possess the gift of the gab, put in alot of effort in Potong Pasir before getting elected in 1984. JBJ & Francis Seow were well-known lawyers even before entering politics, what more, Francis Seow could sway voters at election rallies with his very eloquent speeches. People like them may not need to work at the grassroots level . BUT the same cannot be said of the current batch of candidates. I DON"T think GMS has that kind of charisma or gift of the gab that Francis Seow has. In fact, I rate Dr Chee Soon Juan as the best of the current batch of candidates (if he is eligible to contest) as far as speaking skills are concerned. For the sake of argument, I would prefer Dr Chee to be NCMP rather than GMS. Dr Chee would be more than a match for the PAP Ministars as far as parliamentary debates are concerned, not GMS or Sylvia Lim or even Steve Chia.
I rest my case.

 

[elephanto]

Sampierre,

Thks for emphasizing ultimately, your vote is with Opposition.

But when you said 'this time it will be no different', why are we talking here & why are all the Opp people wasting their time ?

Like you, I feel 'this time it will be no different', because:-
(1) by & large, citizens still want a PAP Govt but with credible Opp MPs to check but not balance (unless there is like more than 1/3 presence, else how to balance?)
(2) historically, at best there were only 4 Opp MPs returned, so prove conclusively, Opp progress can only be evolutionary

Having said that, nothing is preordained, no pain no gain, no try who knows, right? So, we continue to comment here, Opp activists continue as best as they know how.

I agree with you current batch no one comes close in charisma to JBJ, Seow & even Chee. But Seow, despite his flair, always struck me as an untrustworthy braggart.

From Chee's books & speeches, he is easily the most impressive & eloquent figure, unfortunately tainted by past negative PR. But slowly & surely, he is redeemed in the public eye - though when he can be eligible to run again, no one knows.

GMS, I think you bother to reply & explain too much.
Sometimes,a dignified wave & taking a step back does wonders.(remember Goh's dignified wave off to Chee when lthe atter shouted & taunted him ?)

Keep your own counsel sometimes.
I know you can always reconnect to your spiritual roots.

Ultimately, Sampierre, may be over-passionate, but his heart is in the right place :p ........

 

[3_M]

PAP strategy is nothing but make used of personal rapports between the MP and residents to blunt people's hatred for gov's policies. Hence people may still vote for PAP not because they support the party, but due to individual preference for that particular MP.

Thus this is a bottom-up approach i.e working your way up from grassroots level. Oppositions basically adopt the top-down approach, focus more on national issues than kampong issues. To do so you need to have an effective vehicle to carry the message to the masses and we can't depend on Toa Payoh brothel to do so. Choices are limited other than to personally go down to spread the message. But effects are pretty slow and limited. What more is voter's mind can easily be swayed by constant media propaganda bombardments undoing all the hardwork. I even have one friend who originally intended to vote for SDP in Bukit Panjang but change his mind the last minute because his MP promise a swimming pool in the estate.

Whichever party that dictate the issue of the election campaign stand a higher chance of winning. Whether you can convince the voters to look at the bigger pictures or is it municipal issues that dictates voter's decisions.

I am expecting MBT to divert people's attention by focusing on the work he had done for the residents of Tampines in the past and future instead of addressing the issue of his HDB policies.