Did Low Thia Khiang backstab his mentor JBJ? (Revisited)

[Ramseth]

I don't think that TOC has ever offended him and the for love of me, I can't find a reason for his absence. Even Ramseth, Perspective etc can't even give reason for his absence. Did he get a tip off that he might be targeted for assassination.

You're sounding worse than Wong Kan Seng sorry also must explain. Received invitation, sent representative, also must explain? Not free, or give youngster a chance, or whatever reason also must explain? I don't think LTK and SL owe anybody any explanation, especially not to those not involved in the organising and inviting. Well, you can keep questioning and demanding for "explanation" of course, it's your freedom of "expression."

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

You're sounding worse than Wong Kan Seng sorry also must explain. Received invitation, sent representative, also must explain? Not free, or give youngster a chance, or whatever reason also must explain? I don't think LTK and SL owe anybody any explanation, especially not to those not involved in the organising and inviting. Well, you can keep questioning and demanding for "explanation" of course, it's your freedom of "expression."

Mr Ego, happy new year to you.

You've completely missed the point. There are certain basic expectations that must be set for a member of parliament who has been repeatedly elected by his ward. It is disingenuous to claim that he owes nobody any explanation. That is a PAP argument. They too can -- and in the past, have also -- claimed they owe nobody any explanation. Is that adequate? Of course not.

From 2006 till now, neither Chiam's nor Low's party has made any progress except for a few recruits here and there. Even some people have been so disgruntled at Low that they have come to SBF to air their grievances at having been sidelined by him despite their best efforts. There must be certain explanations why they have stagnated, not made sufficient impact through policy statements, policy criticism, etc. After all its not like they have zero resources. The MP salary is quite high, is it not?

 

[normalsingaporean]

\He took over the party in 2001 that was only able to field 7 candidates (5 disqualified). In 2006, he was able to field 20.

That is the main point that people like Scroobal totally miss. The upcoming election is only the 3rd election that LTK is leading the party into and look at 2001 vs the next one. One will be able to judge objectively if you compare 2001 vs 2011.

History will judge LTK using CST as a benchmark. CST managed to secure 3 seats as SDP SG. How many seats will WP secure in the next few elections with LTK as SG, that is the benchmark. Scroobal, you are really nitpicking and putting the cart before the horse.

In my opinion, LTK will never be the outspoken and charismatic opposition Messir that many of the people look for. However, he can be one hell of an organiser for the party that he serves (WP in this case). The fact that Sylvia Lim is given so much promience in WP is statement to LTK's leadership.

 

[Perspective]

You've completely missed the point. There are certain basic expectations that must be set for a member of parliament who has been repeatedly elected by his ward. It is disingenuous to claim that he owes nobody any explanation. That is a PAP argument. They too can -- and in the past, have also -- claimed they owe nobody any explanation. Is that adequate? Of course not.

Sorry, but the TOC forum is not a "basic expectation". It's a fringe one. LTK's primary accountability is to Hougang residents and WP members.

We also have to get away from the naive mindset that the more the amount you are paid means the more you have to squeeze yourself. It never works that way around the world. If so, the Coca Cola CEO needs to work 48 hours a day when he has 24 hours. I'm sure Scroo was more highly paid than me before he retired. In other words, he benefitted more from the Singapore system than me, but do I blame him for giving back less than me?

From 2006 till now, neither Chiam's nor Low's party has made any progress except for a few recruits here and there. Even some people have been so disgruntled at Low that they have come to SBF to air their grievances at having been sidelined by him despite their best efforts. There must be certain explanations why they have stagnated, not made sufficient impact through policy statements, policy criticism, etc.

I do agree with you. The Parliamentary parties appear to have an issue with recruitment and expansion. But I do not think the TOC forum is linked to that. Maybe it would be if WP decided to send no one like the PAP. On the stagnation, I have views of my own.

The MP salary is quite high, is it not?

If the problem is with the MP allowance and people feel it is undeservingly high, then ask for the MP allowance to be cut, rather than MP to spend it all. The allowance is part of the MP's income. Nobody will ever work for free and nobody will ever reject money as long as it's not illegal, not just the greedy but the altruistic because you can use it for good when time comes.

It's the same case with ministers pay, except that in this case the ministers decide their own pay, whereas the MPs (including PAP ones) don't.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

Happy new year to you, Perspective.

I did not mean to use TOC forum as a benchmark, although I realize from prior discussion the TOC forum was used as a starting pt for discussion. Slight confusion.

All in all, I am offering this issue for debate: Hougang residents have repeatedly elected an oppo MP and rejected PAP carrots, to the tune of many, many millions$$$. I don't think they did it for their own selfish ends. Low owes Singaporeans as a whole some measure of performance. The question I am trying to ask if whether Low deserves a passing grade. Up to 2006, I would give him an A-. But 2006 till now, I'm not sure whether to pass him. Unless you or Ramseth (Mr Ego) can tell me something very good he has done during the interim period.

The same question is also asked of Chiam. If someone asks me for Chiam's accomplishments these past few years, I would answer he succeeded into bringing his wife into the party. Then I would be able to answer no further.

Sorry, but the TOC forum is not a "basic expectation". It's a fringe one. LTK's primary accountability is to Hougang residents and WP members.

We also have to get away from the naive mindset that the more the amount you are paid means the more you have to squeeze yourself.

If the problem is with the MP allowance and people feel it is undeservingly high, then ask for the MP allowance to be cut, rather than MP to spend it all.

 

[Sideswipe]

All in all, I am offering this issue for debate: Hougang residents have repeatedly elected an oppo MP and rejected PAP carrots, to the tune of many, many millions$$$. I don't think they did it for their own selfish ends. Low owes Singaporeans as a whole some measure of performance. The question I am trying to ask if whether Low deserves a passing grade. Up to 2006, I would give him an A-. But 2006 till now, I'm not sure whether to pass him.

IMO, LTK a constituency MP only owes Hougang residents some measure of performance in parliament. LTK, the Secretary-General of WP is also answerable to WP members and supporters for the overall performance of the party ( including elections results ) and to a lesser extent all Singaporeans.

 

[Perspective]

Happy new year to you, Perspective.

I did not mean to use TOC forum as a benchmark, although I realize from prior discussion the TOC forum was used as a starting pt for discussion. Slight confusion.

All in all, I am offering this issue for debate: Hougang residents have repeatedly elected an oppo MP and rejected PAP carrots, to the tune of many, many millions$$$. I don't think they did it for their own selfish ends. Low owes Singaporeans as a whole some measure of performance. The question I am trying to ask if whether Low deserves a passing grade. Up to 2006, I would give him an A-. But 2006 till now, I'm not sure whether to pass him. Unless you or Ramseth (Mr Ego) can tell me something very good he has done during the interim period.

The same question is also asked of Chiam. If someone asks me for Chiam's accomplishments these past few years, I would answer he succeeded into bringing his wife into the party. Then I would be able to answer no further.

Happy New Year TFBH.

If it doesn't relate to the TOC forum, that's fine. I would say LTK is a lot less seen and heard from 2006 to now than 2001 to 2006. For WP, it is a little less seen and heard overall. I don't want to specifically grade any part of the above and while I agree with a deprovement, the sending of Gerald Giam was part of the improvement.

I have failed Chiam after the SDA problems, and the only thing I give him better than LTK is the non-media shyness and getting the news (the good ones I mean).

 

[GoldenDragon]

hahaha...meet her where...at the ktv or casino??

Bro kukubird, that has to be "Top Secret" information. Definitely not casino or KTV though Sylvia sings well, having been a church choir girl before. I love her song, ''ái pia xia ay ya''. Too bad she sang with LTK. If only she could sing with the late JBJ!

 

[kingrant]

Haha! an asshole nevertheless.

I will show you that the OA is the last asshole in this forum that you will want to mess with.






Pathetic

 

[Debonerman]

Back stab or no back stab, who wants to argue with success, dollar wise?

 

[Perspective]

I then did a stock take and realised that he has been riding on WP goodwill for a long time and he needs to do more. I remember the excellent turnout at the WP rally that frightened the hell out of PAP that SPH refused to publish the photos.

I think you are basing performance a lot on Parliamentary noise (that's not even performance because I can speak once and do it excellently).

Why did I mention LTK as part of the WP branding. If we were to backtrack to 1991, LTK won a seat and if we attribute it to JBJ, then fast forward a bit to 1997 - if LTK had not been a good MP from 1991 to 1997 but wrangled with JBJ like Ling did to Chiam, would JBJ do well enough in Cheng San 1997 to get him an NCMP? JBJ could help LTK win Hougang in 1991 but can do no further beyond that on how he would perform. Minus LTK, WP and JBJ in 1997 with no seat would be extremely "fringe" and sidelined as SDP had 3.

At the end of the day, WP, JBJ, DM, LSC, LTK, SL and the WP logo are all "many parts one body" (something you'll often hear in churches).

 

[kukubird58]

At the end of the day, WP, JBJ, DM, LSC, LTK, SL and the WP logo are all "many parts one body" .

hahaha...anybody got the thingey about which part of the body is most important?
i think the arse hole called the shot finally.....

 

[iFARKurMADER]

to be frank, I really think LTK did a good job as a NMP because

1) if you was not a good MP, why would the people in hougang vote him in again and again?

2) he expanded WP, and brought in people like sylvia lim, i dunno if the last election's AMK newbie team was his idea, but the 66.6% LHL get really made my days for 1 week

3) he know he is not good in talking in english, so he chose to talk very carefully during parliament to avoid negative press by ST.

for me, as an elected MP for hougang, his main purpose is to make the hougang people happy with hougang. i dun really think just 2-4 MPs in parliament and willing to speak is really what an opposition should only do. the media is controlled by PAP, it's so easy for them to take him out of context and sabotage him.

i remember when mas selamat escaped, LTK questioned LHL why WKS did not quit, and LHL gave a close to threaten response to LTK, and LTK just kept quiet. many people felt it's like he has no guts.

but i felt he was smart because

1) even if he argue with LHL for hours, the outcome is the same, and its 4 mouths against the whole parliament.

2) he knows he is not good in english, its so easy for LHL to take him out of context and sue his ass off.

just my take, if you guys want him to have more "guts" in parliament, bring in more opposition into the parliament please. just recall the last time you quarelled with others, no matter who is right or wrong, dont you get the upper hand when there are more people on your side?

 

[GoldenDragon]

i remember when mas selamat escaped, LTK questioned LHL why WKS did not quit, and LHL gave a close to threaten response to LTK, and LTK just kept quiet. many people felt it's like he has no guts.

That was the moment lots of people felt letdown by LTK. He could have just replied instead of keeping quiet and made to look foolish. LTK could have explained in Mandarin why WKS should or should not resign. That's all we expect from an Opposition MP. Not look like a small boy who had just been taken to task by a school discipline master.

 

[Ramseth]

That was the moment lots of people felt letdown by LTK. He could have just replied instead of keeping quiet and made to look foolish. LTK could have explained in Mandarin why WKS should or should not resign. That's all we expect from an Opposition MP. Not look like a small boy who had just been taken to task by a school discipline master.

On hindsight, I told him that he should have replied to LHL, "you're the PM, what do you think?" But yes, it was opportunity lost. We can't expect him to be perfectly witty everytime, nobody can. At least he knew that calling for WKS resignation was neither politically nor constitutionally correct. You don't sack a minister just because of a jailbreak even if under death sentence unless it's a direct ministerial policy or order that caused the lapse.

 

[GoldenDragon]

On hindsight, I told him that he should have replied to LHL, "you're the PM, what do you think?" But yes, it was opportunity lost. We can't expect him to be perfectly witty everytime, nobody can. At least he knew that calling for WKS resignation was neither politically nor constitutionally correct. You don't sack a minister just because of a jailbreak even if under death sentence unless it's a direct ministerial policy or order that caused the lapse.

LTK could have scored lots of points during that encounter with LHL in parliament. He didn't. It was a win-win for him and I still wonder why he chose to remain silent.

 

[patrickv]

LTK could have scored lots of points during that encounter with LHL in parliament. He didn't. It was a win-win for him and I still wonder why he chose to remain silent.

ltk should have asked lhl : if i say yes, will u sack him. and see how lhl answer to that.

however all these replies we can come with now is when we all have the time to think. ltk needs to react on the spot and unfortunately he did not react much at all. all said, i will support whichever oppo that comes to my ward, even if that team/person is gms.

 

[scroobal]

Looks like you have problem with comprehension. Anyone in this forum will tell that I have revealed more damaging things about PAP and it MPs than any other forummer over the years. Real factual stuff. I can't even recall you suggesting single thing sinister about PAP.

Better stick to sucking up to GMS and Bob Sim as you know one has to buy a house and the other will need to unload one. Leave the serious stuff to us.

I am still amazed that you adopted GCT and PAP policy of not commenting about politics unless you throw your hat in the ring. Do you know the meaning of democracy.

The sore difference between you and Catherine is that she is highly critical of the PAP and you are highly critical of the opposition. .

 

[scroobal]

I asked this of Ramseth and Perspective and they both could not answer. Can you recall anything significant LTK did during his 19 years as an MP? Maybe you can provide any information under any of the follow categories

- Policy, legislation, notable speeches in parliament or anything for that matter etc.

No has also been able to answer why he was absent from the TOC event that all other leaders chose to attend even though it is "fringe" or "marginal" event.

If you want CST as a benchmark, here is few things that I recall that CST accomplished in this early years.

- forced the govt to make Education compulsory for all Singapore kids
- made the govt uncomfortable over the pricing and cost of HDB prices
- captured 3 seats
- screwed the Jayakumar in parliament when he failed to object to a racial slur cast by a fellow PAP MP. CST objected and it became a community issue that GCT as the PM had to address it separately etc'

Someone suggested that he is a shrewd polician but after 19 years, I am still waiting for small spark to show. Correct me unless I miss something.

That is the main point that people like Scroobal totally miss. The upcoming election is only the 3rd election that LTK is leading the party into and look at 2001 vs the next one. One will be able to judge objectively if you compare 2001 vs 2011.

History will judge LTK using CST as a benchmark. CST managed to secure 3 seats as SDP SG. How many seats will WP secure in the next few elections with LTK as SG, that is the benchmark. Scroobal, you are really nitpicking and putting the cart before the horse.

In my opinion, LTK will never be the outspoken and charismatic opposition Messir that many of the people look for. However, he can be one hell of an organiser for the party that he serves (WP in this case). The fact that Sylvia Lim is given so much promience in WP is statement to LTK's leadership.

 

[scroobal]

I am asking the questions but no one is answering.

May you can tell folks here the following

1) Why was he absent or is this classified.
2) What did he do while he was MP for 19 years.

Telling people that LTK does not owe anyone a reason surely must be a joke as he stood for public office.

We complained about the PAP and their high salaries and you tell me that LTK does not owe anyone a reason.

You're sounding worse than Wong Kan Seng sorry also must explain. Received invitation, sent representative, also must explain? Not free, or give youngster a chance, or whatever reason also must explain? I don't think LTK and SL owe anybody any explanation, especially not to those not involved in the organising and inviting. Well, you can keep questioning and demanding for "explanation" of course, it's your freedom of "expression."