Did Low Thia Khiang backstab his mentor JBJ? (Revisited)

[Perspective]

Q1) Can you recall a single thing that LTK did or say that you can call significant. JBJ has and even Chiam when his party captured 3 seats.

Q2) Do you believe that LTK did better than Steve and Sylvia.
I have no doubt that LTK is a nice guy but Steve Chia and Sylvia did better than LTK in parliament.

I think it is not what I think/believe or what LTK says (or does not). It is a fact that he is elected, many people know him because he is elected (among other reasons) and think he is a good opposition MP.

For these, he is undeniably part of the WP branding along with Marshall, JBJ, Sylvia, Lee Siew Choh, others and last but not least, the Hammer logo. They are all different and liked by different segments of people but are all total to WP branding.

 

[scroobal]

We are having this discussion because he is elected. Notice that I am not talking about any other member of WP CEC such Perry Tong. Sylvia, Steve, JBJ, Chian etc are all elected.

The point that I am making is that he has not made an impact. The WP goodwill is fast being eroded and the people are not voting for him per se but the Party. It continues to be the strongest party not because of LTK but because of its history and that of people like Marshall and JBJ.

History will not be kind to him. I am writing this so that folks like Ramseth and you have to say things that will provide some impetus for change. You guys can help make a difference.

Let me give an example. People even remember that Chiam had a pet subject - cost of a HDB flat. He hammered away on this in his early years. I can,t even recall what LTK favourite hobby horse is or has there been one. And that is quite bad. Even worse, I can't even remember talking about anything significant.

I think it is not what I think/believe or what LTK says (or does not). It is a fact that he is elected, many people know him because he is elected (among other reasons) and think he is a good opposition MP.

For these, he is undeniably part of the WP branding along with Marshall, JBJ, Sylvia, Lee Siew Choh, others and last but not least, the Hammer logo. They are all different and liked by different segments of people but are all total to WP branding.

 

[jw5]

We are having this discussion because he is elected. Notice that I am not talking about any other member of WP CEC such Perry Tong. Sylvia, Steve, JBJ, Chian etc are all elected.

The point that I am making is that he has not made an impact. The WP goodwill is fast being eroded and the people are not voting for him per se but the Party. It continues to be the strongest party not because of LTK but because of its history and that of people like Marshall and JBJ.

History will not be kind to him. I am writing this so that folks like Ramseth and you have to say things that will provide some impetus for change. You guys can help make a difference.

Let me give an example. People even remember that Chiam had a pet subject - cost of a HDB flat. He hammered away on this in his early years. I can,t even recall what LTK favourite hobby horse is or has there been one. And that is quite bad. Even worse, I can't even remember talking about anything significant.

You are being very harsh on Low.
He is elected because he was courageous, idealistic and patriotic enough to step forward. Besides his organization skills as you pointed out, he could also relate and empathize with the comman man, and there were many times that he spoke on behalf of the ordinary Singaporean in parliament and in the press on day-to-day issues.

You're right about some of his weaknesses. His lack of eloquence, lack of forcefulness, perhaps even lack of any particular pet topic. But most ordinary Singaporeans don't focus on just 1 problem or 1 significant matter, as they struggle through life.
He didn't make much impact through the years because others didn't or couldn't step forward to back him up. Of course, his personal qualities also come into play here, but if he was fantastic and perfect, he and not LHL would be the PM now and every Singaporean would be blooming in prosperity and happiness.

He hasn't made any JFK type speeches, but to compare his impact on the pap to the 3 former pap mps is an affront.

TCB - Very nice and good man from all accounts, but surely you know that he and GCT are best buds? Ever voted against the party before? Spoke on behalf of residents and tried his best to help them, sounds a bit like Low to me. Oh yes, he was against NMPs, or was it NCMPs. Some might argue that it was coming from an elected representative who felt insulted.

TSK - Only started making strong speeches after he was replaced as speaker. Maybe he was also concerned about ordinary people, but did it really make any difference?
As for WKY, really?

 

[jw5]

Actually there is no comparison between the two when it comes to voters and Singaporeans. CSJ has never received the support of voters while JBJ was the opposite. Lets not kid ourselves and blame everything on the PAP.

Agree with you on this post as much as I disagree on the other posts.

 

[Ramseth]

Let's be fair. Ask the same question of other opposition.

Recall something significant that they've said or done in Parliament.

Even for JBJ, I'd respectfully opine nothing. I'd stand corrected if you point something out.

Getting the PC appeals abolished? Oh please, that's Samsonite act.

Most of his supporters want PC appeals to remain, don't they?

In fact even further, he was also responsible for getting QC representation practically abolished.

CST did have a pet topic in his early years.

In fact, he contributed a fair share to the lead-in to TCW suicide.

The suicide seemed to have cooled him off from that.

The measure isn't whether there's a pet topic.

The measure is what's the pet topic if there's one.

CSJ has a pet topic for decades.

Steve Chia has about 200 pet topics when he was NCMP.

 

[cleareyes]

I can't understand why would people still want to stir shit after JBJ passed away 2 years ago. What had transpired that i wun know but what i do know is dead man hold no grudges SO pls stop stirring shit.

some people just cant get over it.

 

[scroobal]

I thought I better be before it is too late. I think it is getting worse as he has been avoiding the public. I have no doubt that he is a nice, sincere and certainly courageous but he needs to do more.

The thing that struck me was his absence from the joint opposition forum recently. I then did a stock take and realised that he has been riding on WP goodwill for a long time and he needs to do more. I remember the excellent turnout at the WP rally that frightened the hell out of PAP that SPH refused to publish the photos.

This is not the time to take a low profile. Since his profile in parliament is below par, he has to do a lot on the outside. We all complain that SPH and the Singapore media does not provide adequate converage yet he did not attend but sent someone else. I waited for a few days as I thought he might be sick or overseas but I found out that he did not want to attend.

If Chiam and Chee can be on the same room for the sake of Singapore, I find LTK's no-show a disappointment.

Tan Soo Khoon asked to step down as speaker as he preferred to be in the debate and it became obvious why.

You are being very harsh on Low.
He is elected because he was courageous, idealistic and patriotic enough to step forward. Besides his organization skills as you pointed out, he could also relate and empathize with the comman man, and there were many times that he spoke on behalf of the ordinary Singaporean in parliament and in the press on day-to-day issues.

He hasn't made any JFK type speeches, but to compare his impact on the pap to the 3 former pap mps is an affront.

TCB - Very nice and good man from all accounts, but surely you know that he and GCT are best buds? Ever voted against the party before? Spoke on behalf of residents and tried his best to help them, sounds a bit like Low to me. Oh yes, he was against NMPs, or was it NCMPs. Some might argue that it was coming from an elected representative who felt insulted.

TSK - Only started making strong speeches after he was replaced as speaker. Maybe he was also concerned about ordinary people, but did it really make any difference?
As for WKY, really?

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Scroobal,

I do agree with you on some points but I think it is a bit unfair to say that LTK is just riding on past glories of others. He has successfully engineered the re-branding exercise of WP in GE2006 and I am part of that process. Of course that is team work but he is the main mastermind behind it.

I do not know why he is giving people the impression of taking the low profile, maybe that is intended to allow others in the party to take a high profile role. eg. Sylvia Lim, Yaw SL and now Gerald Giam. But of course, I too feel a bit disappointed that neither he nor Sylvia didn't attend the TOC forum for whatever reasons there are.

LTK does have his pet topic, that is education, particularly the Chinese Language education.

Goh Meng Seng

I thought I better be before it is too late. I think it is getting worse as he has been avoiding the public. I have no doubt that he is a nice, sincere and certainly courageous but he needs to do more.

The thing that struck me was his absence from the joint opposition forum recently. I then did a stock take and realised that he has been riding on WP goodwill for a long time and he needs to do more. I remember the excellent turnout at the WP rally that frightened the hell out of PAP that SPH refused to publish the photos.

This is not the time to take a low profile. Since his profile in parliament is below par, he has to do a lot on the outside. We all complain that SPH and the Singapore media does not provide adequate converage yet he did not attend but sent someone else. I waited for a few days as I thought he might be sick or overseas but I found out that he did not want to attend.

If Chiam and Chee can be on the same room for the sake of Singapore, I find LTK's no-show a disappointment.

Tan Soo Khoon asked to step down as speaker as he preferred to be in the debate and it became obvious why.

 

[Dreamer1]

Dear Scroobal,

I do agree with you on some points but I think it is a bit unfair to say that LTK is just riding on past glories of others. He has successfully engineered the re-branding exercise of WP in GE2006 and I am part of that process. Of course that is team work but he is the main mastermind behind it.

I do not know why he is giving people the impression of taking the low profile, maybe that is intended to allow others in the party to take a high profile role. eg. Sylvia Lim, Yaw SL and now Gerald Giam. But of course, I too feel a bit disappointed that neither he nor Sylvia didn't attend the TOC forum for whatever reasons there are.

LTK does have his pet topic, that is education, particularly the Chinese Language education.

Goh Meng Seng

GMS,Pl suggest to TOC to organise another forum in Chinese and we shall see whether LTK presents himself.

It is that simple!

 

[jw5]

I thought I better be before it is too late. I think it is getting worse as he has been avoiding the public. I have no doubt that he is a nice, sincere and certainly courageous but he needs to do more.

We don't really know his reasons for not attending, only he knows.
But look at it this way.
If that was an industry conference and one CEO sent one of his newly promoted vice presidents, people may say that he was developing young talent or giving greater responsibility to his subordinates.

Perhaps he knew that the press would be there, he's already well-known to the public and he wanted a young chap who had never contested elections before, but who would probably contest the next, to get a higher public profile.
He could still be trying to win votes for himself and his party members.

Instead of, or in addition to, asking the question "Why didn't he go?", why not ask the question "Why did he sent Giam?"

 

[kukubird58]

hahaha...let me give you my bird's eye view.
there is no right, no wrong....

Scenerio:
u driving on a narrow road - an overtaking big truck in the opposite direction on the wrong lane driving straight at you- what do you do...

JBJ - principled man, stand by his principle and insist on his right (of way), he also accelerate and charge at the on coming truck...

LTK/CST - assess the situation - better siam (slow down) and let the truck pass-by - better live to fight another day...


pse draw your own conclusions here....

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Scroobal

If I would summarize the WP under LTK in one word it would be in that Disco Hit " I will Survive. " The lyrics are as follows and apply equally to the WP's history with JBJ and the PAP

First I was afraid
I was petrified
Kept thinking I could never live
without you by my side
But I spent so many nights
thinking how you did me wrong
I grew strong

But the question is now vis sa vis the PAP how strong has it grown ? So what are the strengths of the WP and its weakness which are all inter linked

1. Brand name recognition

2. Intense ground work. these guys have been tak boleh tahaning for years and years and years on the same ground.

3. Intense dislike of media, old new, off stream , main stream, up stream down stream. In so much as it uses new media , the platform serves as means of repeating what was said ad verbatim in other sources.

4. An understanding of the chinese educated working ground or the heart land bread and butter vote.

5. A belief that because of three it can shake enough hands, and sell enough hammers and knock on enough doors to cross 50.1% or Hougang 1991 x 5


Weaknesses

1. Because of one it eschews confrontation seeing as confrontation has been given negative connotations by "Excuse me where is my MOney Mr Goh " politicians and associated TBT parties. Alas its previous bosses confronted the PAP to but nearly ended the party in bankruptcy so like the proverbial Pavlov's dog it has learnt that Confrontation in ANY form no matter mild rude or whatever does not PAY. To the extend that it confronts, it screams from its Hammer publications and on issues which the party bosses hold closest to their heart but on all other issues and in parliament its polite whimpers arenot much different from that of the PAP pseudo opposition.

2. Dislike of the media and an unwillingness to engage cohesively means a lack of a cohesive media strategy. For that matter the SDP has some coherent form of political PR and presentation though the bear even for me is a bridge to far. All media engagements and policies are decided on an ad hoc basis , there is no centralized thinking behind the process. By comparison the attempts by the SDP to reinvent and rebrand itself speaks of at least centralized thinking execution and direction

3. Well 4 translates to lost Malay Ground. How they are going to make that up I really do not know. It also translates to a loss of ground amongst some of the English educated elites amongst all the races WHO though do not have the numbers , will serve as your troops and leaders and generals.


4. And because of five, well everything else does not matter. It only needs to " survive " and political manna will fall from heaven, for the WP to lead us into the promised land of opposition politics




Locke

 

[patrickv]

Dear Scroobal,

I do agree with you on some points but I think it is a bit unfair to say that LTK is just riding on past glories of others. He has successfully engineered the re-branding exercise of WP in GE2006 and I am part of that process. Of course that is team work but he is the main mastermind behind it.


Goh Meng Seng

what u mean by 'a bit unfair'? u mean a bit fair too is it.

u wanna give credit to ltk, give fully. dun give half fuck credit.

 

[scroobal]

I did note the organisational skills in my comment but that is the only thing. His silence is now deafening as the years go by. Years ago they used to comment about girls in the late 20s in the village who are waiting for the right man and end up being spinsters. I don't know when his right moment is but we are all waiting.

Lets face it, these are observations that not really pleasant
1) He is indeed the quietest opposition leader in living memory
2) All non PAP MPs have outperformed him in parliament
3) He has not made a single memorable comment, expressed an opinion worth noting etc
4) He does avoid publicity and we cannot blame the MSM for everything

The Chinese language is a political tool in the main nor different to Islam for political fundamentalist. It is a political tool for electioneering purposes similar to CTL reviving of socialist/Barisan?chinese parochialism for votes. He is an MP not for the Chinese language constitutents. Looks odd and embarrassing that after all these years he is associated with Chinese Language as his pet topic when he is supposed to champion all races and their needs.

On the topic of Chinese language, what is he fighting for? More Super schools, more Chinese programmes on TV, more Mandarin speaking campaign etc. Bring back Nantah? I can't even recall any comment in Parliament that he made on Chinese Language.

You do have a point about Sylvia. Interesting and quite offensive that both parlimentarians from WP did not see it fit to attend the forum.

WP needs to have a hard look at itself first. It cannot behave in this manner. With 2 in parliament, they have to assume a leadership position whether they like it or not.

Dear Scroobal,

I do agree with you on some points but I think it is a bit unfair to say that LTK is just riding on past glories of others. He has successfully engineered the re-branding exercise of WP in GE2006 and I am part of that process. Of course that is team work but he is the main mastermind behind it.

I
Goh Meng Seng

 

[scroobal]

Pigs will fly before he even attends a forum.

GMS,Pl suggest to TOC to organise another forum in Chinese and we shall see whether LTK presents himself.

It is that simple!

 

[scroobal]

As I said, I waited for a few days and I then checked around. He was not sick neither was he overseas and heard that he did not want to attend. We are not talking about the annual conference on kneading fishball for a living. This should be something that falls squarely on his plate and he is drawing public funds for it. I can;t recall him turning down to his MPs salary.

I don't think that TOC has ever offended him and the for love of me, I can't find a reason for his absence. Even Ramseth, Perspective etc can't even give reason for his absence. Did he get a tip off that he might be targeted for assassination.

In the past, it was MSM not giving airtime which was valid. After this, its a wonder if the MSM excuse is ever raised.

We don't really know his reasons for not attending, only he knows.
But look at it this way.

Instead of, or in addition to, asking the question "Why didn't he go?", why not ask the question "Why did he sent Giam?"

 

[Dreamer1]

I always felt that CSJ has the potential to be another LKY,except that he screwed out in the start when he tot that he was the only smart man who saw the problems then,in fact there are many smart,deep thinkers who saw the probelms and who did SWOT analysis and decide on other routes.

This is not to say that LKY was so much smarter than CSJ,I think LKY was very lucky to hv some really clever partners who carried him thro' the initail growing up phase which CSJ did not get.

The good point is that CSJ did not break,I saw that he has a new lease of life.

CSJ has not political future for the time being,but it is globalised world,thing changes too fast,he still have a chance.

 

[Char_Azn]

Lets face it, these are observations that not really pleasant
1) He is indeed the quietest opposition leader in living memory
2) All non PAP MPs have outperformed him in parliament
3) He has not made a single memorable comment, expressed an opinion worth noting etc
4) He does avoid publicity and we cannot blame the MSM for everything

I do not see the fact that Low is quiet in Parliament as a major issue. I'm incline to think that the reason why he is not as vocal is due to the fact that whatever he said is more likely to be scrutinized by PAP and the local media hence more caution needs to be applied. Case in point, every time Chiam or Low makes a statement, in Parliament, it almost always ends up as front page news, same goes for the response from PAP.

That being the case it is more likely that both will only make statements after careful consideration of possible consequences. I don't think I need to elaborate on what happened to past elected opposition members who speak without restrain

 

[scroobal]

I am afraid but you are right on track with your observation. What motivates him really puzzles me. Why enter parliament in the first place if you wish to remind quiet.

I can understand the intense dislike of the media and who can blame the opposition with the poor record of the media in terms of being fair and neutral. But the TOC event surprised me. A golden opportunity missed and a leadership role expected but not delivered.

If he thinks that confrontation is not a good tactic with the PAP, then there is no need to be confrontational. Look at Chiam, despite his frail condition he still sells a strong message. Look at Sylvia - she gives as good as she gets. She took on Hen and beat him hands down.

I always had an issue with selling hammer and shaking hands. I suspect it is becoming a goal. Entering parliament and making one's presence felt in parliament is the goal and purpose of joining the political bandwagon.

Can you imagine after yonks in parliament his pet subject is chinese language. Not the poor, the high HDB prices, not the displacement of Singaporeans in the workplace etc. If he knows simple stats, he would know that Chinese Ed form the lowest income group among the Chinese and they need help.

Dear Scroobal

If I would summarize the WP under LTK in one word it would be in that Disco Hit " I will Survive. " The lyrics are as follows and apply equally to the WP's history with JBJ and the PAP

First I was afraid
I was petrified
Kept thinking I could never live
without you by my side
But I spent so many nights
thinking how you did me wrong
I grew strong

But the question is now vis sa vis the PAP how strong has it grown ? So what are the strengths of the WP and its weakness which are all inter linked

1. Brand name recognition

2. Intense ground work. these guys have been tak boleh tahaning for years and years and years on the same ground.

3. Intense dislike of media, old new, off stream , main stream, up stream down stream. In so much as it uses new media , the platform serves as means of repeating what was said ad verbatim in other sources.

4. An understanding of the chinese educated working ground or the heart land bread and butter vote.

5. A belief that because of three it can shake enough hands, and sell enough hammers and knock on enough doors to cross 50.1% or Hougang 1991 x 5


Weaknesses

1. Because of one it eschews confrontation seeing as confrontation has been given negative connotations by "Excuse me where is my MOney Mr Goh " politicians and associated TBT parties. Alas its previous bosses confronted the PAP to but nearly ended the party in bankruptcy so like the proverbial Pavlov's dog it has learnt that Confrontation in ANY form no matter mild rude or whatever does not PAY. To the extend that it confronts it screams from its Hammer publications and on issues which the party bosses hold closest to their heart but on all other issues and in parliament polite whimpers not much different from that of the PAP suffices.

2. Dislike of the media and an unwillingness to engage cohesively means a lack of a cohesive media strategy. For that matter the SDP has some coherent form of political PR and presentation though the bear even for me is a bridge to far. All media engagements and policies are decided on an ad hoc basis , there is no centralized thinking behind the process. By comparison the attempts by the SDP to reinvent and rebrand itself speaks of at least centralized thinking execution and direction

3. Well 4 translates to lost Malay Ground. How they are going to make that up I really do not know. It also translates to a loss of ground amongst some of the English educated elites amongst all the races WHO though do not have the numbers , will serve as your troops and leaders and generals.


4. And because of five, well everything else does not matter. It only needs to " survive " and political manna will fall from heaven, for the WP to lead us into the promised land of opposition politics




Locke

 

[scroobal]

CSJ is best described as an enigma. I have spoken to his classmates and none had any inkling that he would be prominent in any field. He did not qualify for the local Uni and it does seem that it has become a chip on his shoulder. So one can rule of the smart part straight away. There should not even be a debate about it. You are right that he thought he was smarter.

Though his speech skills are impressive and exceptional, he falls apart when it comes to tactics and strategy. So one can rule out the deep thinking process as well.

Take the latest flavour of the month - the Michael Fernandez issue. Michael Fernandez is a non-issue in the scheme of things for most Singaporeans. 90% have no clue who this guy is and the remaining 10% know that he is insignificant in this day and age. He however is now a patsy for the SDP to draw the NGOs in for funding. These themes for fodder for any self respecting NGOs - political persecution, detention without trial, force fed, etc .

You and I know that the neighbourhood Ah Soh in HDB heartland Central to the well paid Lawyer in Drew & Napier have no link to the Michael Fernandez case so why bother. The following topics are however are hot political potatoes and will immediately draw the atttention of the Ah Soh and the Lawyer
- high salaries
- high prices
- displacement of relatives and friends in the workplace
- elderly Singaporeans working as dish washers and cleaners
- etc

I know that SDP has touched on these before but their current themes are not these. Mix messaging confuses the masses.

I always felt that CSJ has the potential to be another LKY,except that he screwed out in the start when he tot that he was the only smart man who saw the problems then,in fact there are many smart,deep thinkers who saw the probelms and who did SWOT analysis and decide on other routes.

This is not to say that LKY was so much smarter than CSJ,I think LKY was very lucky to hv some really clever partners who carried him thro' the initail growing up phase which CSJ did not get.

The good point is that CSJ did not break,I saw that he has a new lease of life.

CSJ has not political future for the time being,but it is globalised world,thing changes too fast,he still have a chance.