Did Low Thia Khiang backstab his mentor JBJ? (Revisited)

[Dreamer1]

Dear Scroobal

If I would summarize the WP under LTK in one word it would be in that Disco Hit " I will Survive. " The lyrics are as follows and apply equally to the WP's history with JBJ and the PAP

First I was afraid
I was petrified
Kept thinking I could never live
without you by my side
But I spent so many nights
thinking how you did me wrong
I grew strong

But the question is now vis sa vis the PAP how strong has it grown ? So what are the strengths of the WP and its weakness which are all inter linked

1. Brand name recognition

2. Intense ground work. these guys have been tak boleh tahaning for years and years and years on the same ground.

3. Intense dislike of media, old new, off stream , main stream, up stream down stream. In so much as it uses new media , the platform serves as means of repeating what was said ad verbatim in other sources.

4. An understanding of the chinese educated working ground or the heart land bread and butter vote.

5. A belief that because of three it can shake enough hands, and sell enough hammers and knock on enough doors to cross 50.1% or Hougang 1991 x 5


Weaknesses

1. Because of one it eschews confrontation seeing as confrontation has been given negative connotations by "Excuse me where is my MOney Mr Goh " politicians and associated TBT parties. Alas its previous bosses confronted the PAP to but nearly ended the party in bankruptcy so like the proverbial Pavlov's dog it has learnt that Confrontation in ANY form no matter mild rude or whatever does not PAY. To the extend that it confronts, it screams from its Hammer publications and on issues which the party bosses hold closest to their heart but on all other issues and in parliament its polite whimpers arenot much different from that of the PAP pseudo opposition.

2. Dislike of the media and an unwillingness to engage cohesively means a lack of a cohesive media strategy. For that matter the SDP has some coherent form of political PR and presentation though the bear even for me is a bridge to far. All media engagements and policies are decided on an ad hoc basis , there is no centralized thinking behind the process. By comparison the attempts by the SDP to reinvent and rebrand itself speaks of at least centralized thinking execution and direction

3. Well 4 translates to lost Malay Ground. How they are going to make that up I really do not know. It also translates to a loss of ground amongst some of the English educated elites amongst all the races WHO though do not have the numbers , will serve as your troops and leaders and generals.


4. And because of five, well everything else does not matter. It only needs to " survive " and political manna will fall from heaven, for the WP to lead us into the promised land of opposition politics




Locke

Good analysis.

Especially on the media part,it is a big falure by WP which was especially pointed out by CSJ.

The good point about LTK is that he is not power crazy,so who knows what next

Remember the labour party before Tony Blair?

 

[Dreamer1]

I do not see the fact that Low is quiet in Parliament as a major issue. I'm incline to think that the reason why he is not as vocal is due to the fact that whatever he said is more likely to be scrutinized by PAP and the local media hence more caution needs to be applied. Case in point, every time Chiam or Low makes a statement, in Parliament, it almost always ends up as front page news, same goes for the response from PAP.

That being the case it is more likely that both will only make statements after careful consideration of possible consequences. I don't think I need to elaborate on what happened to past elected opposition members who speak without restrain

I think u are right,this one,LKT is cautious.

But he did peorform well,he was the only MP so far praised by LKY as being very deatiled.He spent time going thro' all the details.

And we know how careful LKY is with parliamentary sittings.

 

[Dreamer1]

CSJ is best described as an enigma. I have spoken to his classmates and none had any inkling that he would be prominent in any field. He did not qualify for the local Uni and it does seem that it has become a chip on his shoulder. So one can rule of the smart part straight away. There should not even be a debate about it. You are right that he thought he was smarter.

Though his speech skills are impressive and exceptional, he falls apart when it comes to tactics and strategy. So one can rule out the deep thinking process as well.

Take the latest flavour of the month - the Michael Fernandez issue. Michael Fernandez is a non-issue in the scheme of things for most Singaporeans. 90% have no clue who this guy is and the remaining 10% know that he is insignificant in this day and age. He however is now a patsy for the SDP to draw the NGOs in for funding. These themes for fodder for any self respecting NGOs - political persecution, detention without trial, force fed, etc .

You and I know that the neighbourhood Ah Soh in HDB heartland Central to the well paid Lawyer in Drew & Napier have no link to the Michael Fernandez case so why bother. The following topics are however are hot political potatoes and will immediately draw the atttention of the Ah Soh and the Lawyer
- high salaries
- high prices
- displacement of relatives and friends in the workplace
- elderly Singaporeans working as dish washers and cleaners
- etc

I know that SDP has touched on these before but their current themes are not these. Mix messaging confuses the masses.

Yes,u made some good points.

As for my reading,right from the start,CSJ did not function as a politician,in this he is no match for LKY,he latched on to human rights,etc,which did not bring him votes.

He was idealistic believeing that people would be touched if they know the truth,the fact is that people would only be touched if they get better off.

I suspect that CSJ was almost on the verge on giving up,still remember QXP attached all those who wanted to win elections and called them traitors.Boycott,etc-this is not even mentioned these days.

Yes CSJ has shown poor judgement,I do hope he improves further.For me,it is simple,the present situation is too one-sided,and any increase of weight on the alternative side would be welcomed.It is about balance of power.

For Singapore,the sitaution has been STRONG GOVERNMENT,STRONG MNCS,STRONG SOES,WEAK PEOPLE SECTOR

For USA.STRONG PRESIDENT,STRONG PRIVATE SECTOR(TOO STRONG,ESPECIALLY WALL STREET)STRONG PEOPLE SECTOR.

it is all a matter of balance.

I would switch to support PAP if opposition parties become too strong.But that day doe not seem to be coming anytime soon!

The longer that day arrives,the worst it is for us Spore citizens.

 

[jw5]

As I said, I waited for a few days and I then checked around. He was not sick neither was he overseas and heard that he did not want to attend. We are not talking about the annual conference on kneading fishball for a living. This should be something that falls squarely on his plate and he is drawing public funds for it. I can;t recall him turning down to his MPs salary.

I don't think that TOC has ever offended him and the for love of me, I can't find a reason for his absence. Even Ramseth, Perspective etc can't even give reason for his absence. Did he get a tip off that he might be targeted for assassination.

In the past, it was MSM not giving airtime which was valid. After this, its a wonder if the MSM excuse is ever raised.

He may have looked at the forum in the context of how it would help to win elections or win over voters.
In that context, he may have concluded that there was little upside for him to attend, and plenty of upside for Gerald to attend and raise his profile.

If he went and said something wrong, that would have been the focus of the press report and detract from the content and purpose of the forum. If he didn't go, his votes would still be secured. But if Gerald went, the people who don't follow politics that closely would say "Hmmm, that's a new young interesting candidate", and this may raise the profile of opposition, WP and Gerald.

Don't underestimate this shrewd and smart fellow, despite his slow and deliberate style, which could also be one reason why he chose not to go. At least, let's give him his due and not expect him to carry the load of the opposition and ordinary Singaporeans on his shoulders. It's time for some others to step up and forward as well.

 

[jixiaolan]

It seems that scroobal always has something to criticise against every single opposition politicians, none receive his thumb-up and he never fail to hold himself in higher esteem. Why can't he offer himself and stand for the next election? The question should not be whether - CST is good enuff, KJ is good enuff or GMS is good enuff. It should be whether you are good enuff since you reject the PAP.

 

[silverfox@]

Why are people still harping on the issue of LTK not turning up for the forum held by TOC? TOC holds a forum, everyone MUST attend compulsorily ?

Of course, most people would say, his presence would be greatly encouraged. But I think the issue being mentioned in that forum seems to be overshadowed by his non-attendance

 

[silverfox@]

It seems that scroobal always has something to criticise against every single opposition politicians, none receive his thumb-up and he never fail to hold himself in higher esteem. Why can't he offer himself and stand for the next election? The question should not be whether - CST is good enuff, KJ is good enuff or GMS is good enuff. It should be whether you are good enuff since you reject the PAP.

Well, we always say PAP no good, policy no good, but why aren't we standing for election to create better policies? :p

 

[kukubird58]

In that context, he may have concluded that there was little upside for him to attend, and plenty of upside for Gerald to attend and raise his profile.
But if Gerald went, the people who don't follow politics that closely would say "Hmmm, that's a new young interesting candidate", and this may raise the profile of opposition, WP and Gerald.

Don't underestimate this shrewd and smart fellow, despite his slow and deliberate style, which could also be one reason why he chose not to go.

hahaha...i agree with 2 points:
1. using the TOC forum to raise the profile of Gerald in this case.
2. LTK is shrewder n smarter than most pple realised.
In politics, if you are not shrewd enough, you will be replaced as leader very quickly. this has been shown time and again.

 

[scroobal]

I think most of us have taken him to be just that - shrewd, smart and deliberate style. But after 19 years in Parliament, you got wonder what exactly is he planning for. Locke probably has summed it up well.

If this was intercourse, we are still waiting for the climax. You got admit 19 years is a long wait. I am now guessing that history will not be kind to him in terms of accomplishment in parliament. Just as Ramseth, Perspective and even GMS have tried, you too would struggle to indentify an form of impact he made in parliament or influenced any set of laws or legislation let alone shaken the PAP. I do remember LHL was upset with Steve Chia and Sylvia. Steve with salary formula computation and Sylvia on many issues.

I do credit him for his organisational skills which I have mentioned before. It is never easy to keep a political party steady and he has proven himself well in terms of picking the right candidates and getting the slate right. Another attribute that should not be taken for granted. Chiam failed miserably in this and so did JBJ. I think Ken is doing a really good job in this area.

Don't underestimate this shrewd and smart fellow, despite his slow and deliberate style, which could also be one reason why he chose not to go.

 

[scroobal]

Looks like you swallowed GCT and PAP mantra about joining a political party if you want to comment about politics. The infamous GCT doctrine of boundary markers when Catherine Lim took him, old man and the PAP to task in her 2 part essay.

Learn to think for yourself. Every person has the right to comment about politics, its particpants and be ready to offer an opinion without taking part in an elections. That is why good education is so important. Lest you become an ignoramus.

You seem to blur on so many basic things. It is no wonder that PAP can run roughshod over things that are basic and come out nonsensical statements about not commenting about politics unless you sign on with a political party when they have people like you ready to swallow rubbish.

Why can't he offer himself and stand for the next election?

 

[kingrant]

To be fair, I believe he speaks up and also occasionally interjected in Parliament on various issues, HDB, prices, etc. and the Hansard reflects that. Only the MSM does not give him air-time to do justice to what he has said, but you can find them back in the hansards. As for fora like TOC, this guy seems to eschew such platforms, as JW5 said, maybe they have to do with more tendency to destroy his image (if he made gaffes) than to add value to his political agenda.

He may not have the eloquence of Francis seow or LKY (but neither have a lot of PAP heavyweights) in the English language; but on the stage, he was formidable in Teochew as a rabble rouser, and cutting wit sarcasm. And he knew the crowds at Hougang loved that. We may have to look to his MP work and Meet the People sessions to see where the rubber meets the road.

Still, I agree to some extent he seems to lack a thrust and mantra that we all can identify as his holy grail, and he does not seem to be singing to the Emglish speaking gallery that well, or being heard properly. So he shld be mindful of this if he wants to enhance his standing with the english-educated.

I think most of us have taken him to be just that - shrewd, smart and deliberate style. But after 19 years in Parliament, you got wonder what exactly is he planning for. Locke probably has summed it up well.

If this was intercourse, we are still waiting for the climax. You got admit 19 years is a long wait. I am now guessing that history will not be kind to him in terms of accomplishment in parliament. Just as Ramseth, Perspective and even GMS have tried, you too would struggle to indentify an form of impact he made in parliament or influenced any set of laws or legislation let alone shaken the PAP. I do remember LHL was upset with Steve Chia and Sylvia. Steve with salary formula computation and Sylvia on many issues.

I do credit him for his organisational skills which I have mentioned before. It is never easy to keep a political party steady and he has proven himself well in terms of picking the right candidates and getting the slate right. Another attribute that should not be taken for granted. Chiam failed miserably in this and so did JBJ. I think Ken is doing a really good job in this area.

 

[Emperor Palpatine]

I was assed by the OA for being an imbecile :p

I will show you that the OA is the last asshole in this forum that you will want to mess with.






Pathetic

 

[GoldenDragon]

Instead of, or in addition to, asking the question "Why didn't he go?", why not ask the question "Why did he sent Giam?"

I will ask Sylvia Lim when I next meet up with her.

 

[jixiaolan]

Looks like you swallowed GCT and PAP mantra about joining a political party if you want to comment about politics. The infamous GCT doctrine of boundary markers when Catherine Lim took him, old man and the PAP to task in her 2 part essay.

Learn to think for yourself. Every person has the right to comment about politics, its particpants and be ready to offer an opinion without taking part in an elections. That is why good education is so important. Lest you become an ignoramus.

You seem to blur on so many basic things. It is no wonder that PAP can run roughshod over things that are basic and come out nonsensical statements about not commenting about politics unless you sign on with a political party when they have people like you ready to swallow rubbish.

The sore difference between you and Catherine is that she is highly critical of the PAP and you are highly critical of the opposition. What you have done is not only dishing out plain criticism, you are trying to dictate their political stance to the point that they did not "perform" to yr liking, they are committing political suicide. Who are you to teach LTK and GMS what to do and what not to do?

I do not look that bright and may not have receive much education, but at least i know how to be respectful to others. I can understand a 60yrs old retiree like you may not have much to do at home, but you have certainly gone way over board.

There is no nid for you to superimpose on others. It is not as if you do not have any other choice, you still can step forward to make a difference or vote for the PAP. That is what democracy is all abt.

 

[kukubird58]

I will ask Sylvia Lim when I next meet up with her.

hahaha...meet her where...at the ktv or casino??

 

[wizard]

It doesn matter if he do it or not .. important thing is their commom objective is PAP...

 

[Ramseth]

I think most of us have taken him to be just that - shrewd, smart and deliberate style. But after 19 years in Parliament, you got wonder what exactly is he planning for. Locke probably has summed it up well.

What can an opposition MP do in 19 years in Parliament when the total on opposition side ranged between 2 to 4?

If you're talking about expanding his party as a leader, that's not 19 years ago. He took over the party in 2001 that was only able to field 7 candidates (5 disqualified). In 2006, he was able to field 20.

 

[kukubird58]

hahaha...if somebody has the time and takes the efforts to compile detailed records; speeches, questions tabled, attendance, etc.. in Hansards, then there may in for some surprises...
it has been briefly mentioned in the papers before that actually CST, LTK and even SL fared not too bad.....
but of course they do not get the air time and press coverage....
also Papee always took them as talking cock like kukubird.....

 

[Ramseth]

They're always people who say, media is 147th or 154th, can't trust. Then say, opposition MPs also useless, said nothing in Parliament for many years. When you ask them how they know, they say read from media.

 

[Perspective]

I don't think that TOC has ever offended him and the for love of me, I can't find a reason for his absence. Even Ramseth, Perspective etc can't even give reason for his absence.

Factual error. I didn't and don't bother to give an explanation for his absence, nor was I asked.

It isn't the first time LTK has assigned others from WP to go. After he became SG he attended at least 3 forums. After that, 2003 on, Sylvia had represented WP, so has Gomez. It later moved to Yaw and Gerald.

It is meaningless to give a reason for his absence this time because one would have to give a reason for the 50 over times he had sent others in the last 11 years of Sec-generalship.

I have been invited to weddings that I do not even know the people involved. My response is not to turn up. I don't have to explain why. If people who are married are blood friends, I make an effort. If it's far from that, even something unimportant like watching Harry Potter on that evening on TV takes priority over someone else's big day. I don't have to explain why. However there are people who make an effort to attend whatever wedding even if they and the couple stare blankly at one another.