Crumbling of Singapore?

[psy83]

@Brocoli, Im watching you like a hawk. I.B send in to sabotage and play mind-games.

 

[scroobal]

Re: I Find TracyTan866 Strange

TT has been in SBF for a very long time. She does not talk about sex, her BF and rubbish. So she has only 49 points despite being a vet. She has also noted for her long threads because of the discussion. Years ago she related how her younger brother was suffering during his NS and she had to speak to his superiors twice. At that time she also noticed that SAF personnel can be seen at eateries, food joints and malls eating air in uniform during office hours.

Do you have the same feeling as I have that TracyTan866 may be a guy ? Why she's so interested about NS ?

This feeling has been with me for quite some time.

 

[worried]

I am so happy to see this discussion happening in Singapore. The fact that TracyTan886 feels able to make her points without fear (and she makes them so well!) is an amazing thing. There are other signs of healthy discussion. This is a quote from "Defence and Security: Evolving Threat Perceptions" - Derek da Cunha, Institute of SouthEast Asian Studies, published in Singapore in 2002, ISBN 981-230-130-5. From page 147:

"The history of Singapore tends to demonstrate the extent of fragile civilian morale. Unlike the peoples of China, Burma, and the Philippines who fought heroically against the Japanese invaders during the Second World War and even continued to harass Japanese occupying forces, the collective memory of Singaporeans of the Second World War is not one of gallantry or heroism, but of hardship, deprivation, humiliation and total domination by the enemy.

It is not entirely certain whether more than half a century later and more than three decades of nation building has stiffened the backbone of Singaporeans. Some observers might in fact contend that Singaporeans have had the spirit wrenched out of them through years of depoliticization and paternalistic rule by a single political party.

A classic example of the fragile state of civilian morale can be gauged by the fact that some Singaporeans will rush to the nearest supermarket or provision store to snap up rice, sugar and other necessities in a panic-buying spree when there on some flap on the external front.

Singaporean civilian morale is indeed very fragile. From a generally high state of civilian morale on a day-to-to day basis, it would not take much for Singaporean civilian morale to nose dive".

The author was working for, and being paid by, a Singaporean organisation when this book was published: the Institute of South East Asian Studies. So either the censors weren't doing their job or these statements were considered acceptable, in which case this is an extremely positive sign. Long live Singapore!

 

[Leongsam]

TracyTan866, boss is jsust saying SIngapore is not crumbling ... did he said pap runs SG well ?

please go and take a course in argumemtative writing and critical thinking

Yes I DID say that the PAP runs Singapore well. In fact, it runs the place excellently. No other country I know has transformed the skyline for the better in the space of one decade! It's unbelievable.

I'm repeating myself but I have to emphasise once more that until you have had to put up with the inefficiencies, the waste, the delays and the political stalemates that pervade other 1st world nations and stall all progress, you will not appreciate what the PAP has done to make your life better in such a short period of time.

The YOG problems, the MRT breakdowns, the stresses caused by immigration, the bad investments of GIC and Temasek, prisoner escapes etc are all minor hiccups in the grand scheme of things. No individual or organisation is infallible. The only way to avoid failure is to do nothing. If you want to avoid MRT breakdowns, don't have an MRT in the first place. Let's go back to days of rickshaws and bullock carts.

The negativity of many here defies belief and it invariably comes from the armchair critics! I experience it personally whenever the server that runs this site gives problems. "Fucked up server", "Sam never pay hosting fee" etc etc. It gets even more bizarre when the conspiracy theorists step in and make accusations that the server problems are a sinister way of censoring free speech.

I could easily have avoided all the server problems simply by not ever having started this site. Is that the way Singaporeans want the PAP to run the country... by avoiding all major projects to improve the lot of Singaporeans so there's nothing much to go wrong in the first place???? I sympathise with and support the PAP for all the things they have done for the country to make things better. Hang in there PAP. I'm sure you'll prove your doubters wrong in due course.

LHL are doing their very best for the future of the country and they operate under numerous constraints imposed by the island's unfortunate size and location. Those who think that things can be done better should get off their fat asses and volunteer their assistance instead of just banging away at a keyboard taking pot shots from their couches. Typing messages full of unsubstantiated hogwash is the easiest thing in the world to do. Taking charge of problem and coming up with solutions is a different story altogether.

 

[psy83]

Been reading quite abit on the MRT saga for the last few days, An article in straits times online today mentioned about commuters being frustrated and confused about the shut down of the rail system or the frustration about not knowing where to go for the bridging service or being frustrated for the delay of the bus. So i was thinking, Are we relying on an Institution/service so much that once a service goes down/Disappears we immediately handicap ourselves? We are not living in Australia or a huge country, Why cant we just sort things out immediately instead of hanging idle and waiting for things to get back to normal. What happens if one day something major kicks off and we just stand about and idle and complain instead of being creative and sorting things out by our-self to make things work. I honestly believe it has something to do with the Social/psychological relationship between Singaporeans and The Government and her Institutions and how the Singaporean mind/behavior has been molded by the Government.

Not quite sure if you guys understand what i mean.

 

[psy83]

I think this topic should be taken down from Sticky, Cos it wont be that visible and most people who surf forums would usually over-look the sticky section as they are used to them being Ads, Forum rules, general information and old topics that has gone dry.

 

[Fook Seng]

That's very narrow logic. You can't point to a 60.1% mandate and say Singaporeans collectively approve on specific issues like boards of directorships for MPs. There was a wide variety of issues and people vote emotionally and subjectively as well. You can only conclude that people as a whole still prefer a PAP govt, regardless of personal dislike. As for individual issues like ministerial salaries and GST, the 60.1% does not indicate anything.

The ruling party has always claimed that the majority (i.e. 60.1%) given by the electorate is a mandate to do anything to govern. Since they have also taken away the super-minority provision of one third minority with the GRC, they have also taken away the right to reject whatever actions taken to disadvantage the minority. Furthermore, they have engineered the installment of a friendly35% minority President that removes the last veto right of the minority. If that is not absolute mandate what is? Ironically, none of these is written in fine print in any of the ballot papers or in any print at all.

 

[brocoli]

@Brocoli, Im watching you like a hawk. I.B send in to sabotage and play mind-games.

if you have a valid point to make then make it ... if you have problem with my arguement then rebut...

if you wan to contribute to the forum, then contribute...

stop playing your 3 years old game where people who you dun like is an IB....

you are damn childish and pathetic.... you wan some sweets or attention ?? please grow up


if you think only you are so smart to see thru mind-games, then please go to toilet and wank about how great you lose.... :oIo::oIo::oIo::oIo::oIo::oIo:

 

[zhihau]

In geopolitics, the worst thing is to be rich and weak.

Its no longer fashionable to be associated with regimentation.

isn't it senseless to be spending so much on conventional defenses when the new face of the challenges in the future had morphed into the common man in the streets, is it?

 

[zhihau]

I honestly believe it has something to do with the Social/psychological relationship between Singaporeans and The Government and her Institutions and how the Singaporean mind/behavior has been molded by the Government.

there's something about the "crutch" mentality that folks had been talking about

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

I'm repeating myself but I have to emphasise once more that until you have had to put up with the inefficiencies, the waste, the delays and the political stalemates that pervade other 1st world nations and stall all progress, you will not appreciate what the PAP has done to make your life better in such a short period of time.

The YOG problems, the MRT breakdowns, the stresses caused by immigration, the bad investments of GIC and Temasek, prisoner escapes etc are all minor hiccups in the grand scheme of things. No individual or organisation is infallible. The only way to avoid failure is to do nothing. If you want to avoid MRT breakdowns, don't have an MRT in the first place. Let's go back to days of rickshaws and bullock carts.

There is always scope to improve the situation. That is why we have opposition MPs, party members, volunteers, and your regular internet heroes all giving their points of view and trying to do something whatever capacity they can.

Your post is unfair. YOG problems, MRT breakdowns, bad GIC investments, prisoner escapes are not what feature tops on Singaporeans' minds on polling day. The real hiccups to the system are cost of living and asset prices, and increased unemployability of Singaporeans due to foreign influx. You are being very selective in your examples as well. Ever seen a woman in her 70s working the tables at the food centre, or cleaners working day in and out without complaint. There is no social safety net.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

isn't it senseless to be spending so much on conventional defenses when the new face of the challenges in the future had morphed into the common man in the streets, is it?

Not disputing the need to spend on defence here. But surely there's another way to do things. We could shorten full time NS to one year as a progressive step since obviously abolishing conscription cannot be an immediate solution.

The budget is 40 billion, defence is 1/4 of that. Now, the other 3/4 can be put to better use like building social infrastructure. Problem is the PAP has trained us to see things in one dimension. There are countries our size who spend less on defence, more on social infrastructure, and yet their security is not threatened. Is there a need to have half of our defence budget on new equipment for example?

Why is it that govt is not deploying capital as productively as countries finland and norway?

 

[Fook Seng]

Not disputing the need to spend on defence here. But surely there's another way to do things. We could shorten full time NS to one year as a progressive step since obviously abolishing conscription cannot be an immediate solution.

Why is it that govt is not deploying capital as productively as countries finland and norway?

NS is certainly a Sacred Cow that needs to be slaughtered? Exactly what to take its place depends on what is required. Certainly a lot of money has been spent there and much can be saved. For many years, no one had dared to touch this.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

NS is certainly a Sacred Cow that needs to be slaughtered? Exactly what to take its place depends on what is required. Certainly a lot of money has been spent there and much can be saved. For many years, no one had dared to touch this.

Do you remember some PAP MP talking about segregating the reserves into 3 buckets, and LKY saying if we do so we will kick the bucket?

 

[zhihau]

We could shorten full time NS to one year as a progressive step since obviously abolishing conscription cannot be an immediate solution.

bro,
good to note that we're pretty much on the same page. however, 1 year is not enough to churn out any decent military officer. a soldier must shoot straight, the NCO must lead and shoot straight, the officer must plan, lead and shoot straight. me think you know what i meant.

 

[scroobal]

The nature of our location requires us to spend. Tomorrow a nut case in Malaysia or Indonesia decides to score vote points and launches an attack. We have no choice but have an expensive deterrent. If Singapore with all things being equal was between Australia and New Zealand. I bet you we won't even have a General let alone an an infantry brigade. Many of PAP key business partners in trade and industry including so many towkays have appealed to old man and cabinet to avoid NS for their sons over the years. This is not negotiable.

One of the things that Goh Keng Swee realised was that the defence spending was going to be high so he started Sheng Li Holdings to recover some of the cost. It led to food production, arms manufacturing etc. It now called Temasek and many of those industries are within the Singapore Technology Group. They generate huge revenue and employ a lot of Singaporeans.

What you can see is the NS has been reduced and I suspect that it will be reduced further. We are now going to get the US to deploy littoral (coastal) navy deployments and reduce the dependency on NS. In return we will provide safe bases for them. Interestingly a return to British providing protection to strait settlement and we return to do what we do best - trading and make money.

isn't it senseless to be spending so much on conventional defenses when the new face of the challenges in the future had morphed into the common man in the streets, is it?

 

[sleaguepunter]

Zhihau,

I also advocate the abolition of conscription and I have a feeling we can find quite a number of right-thinking singaporean males who would agree with us.

Problem is that agenda is never going to gain traction as the electorate will not buy it. The first question asked is whether a professional force can really protect SG. In geopolitics, the worst thing is to be rich and weak. They will fear SG will be very rich, but very weak without conscription.

The other concern is that those who have gone thru will never allow abolition. In fact, many parents want NS to be kept, even to the point of wanting their kids to serve NS well. I can't fathom it but thats a fact. I really don't know how to explain. Maybe stockholm syndrome.

Whatever the reasons, opposition in SG will never gain traction on the NS issue. And that means for thinking people like yourself you're stuck with it.

many chineses still dont trust the mats, maybe that why they want conscription to continue. there are still many racists out there, even here many behave in the same way. conscription should be shrink to 1 year and NS be more transparent and govt must be resposible to any injuries or deaths. And no more NDP nonsense for goodness sake. those who ORDed should be place to the Reserves and volunteer militias or national guards units be form. volunteer will enjoy the same benefits as the regulars of the same rank. To attract volunteers, a national defense tax will be impose on all (FTrashs, PR included) who dont dont join. It better to have 50K motivated part time soldiers than 350K demoralised mob. The day of quantity is also a quality had gone and the reduction in numbers can also save on MoD budget.

And please scrape the rank system where the who SAF was at least a corporal. Aussie units must be thinking how come everybody is at least a corporal when they excerise with SAF units.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

What you can see is the NS has been reduced and I suspect that it will be reduced further. We are now going to get the US to deploy littoral (coastal) navy deployments and reduce the dependency on NS. In return we will provide safe bases for them. Interestingly a return to British providing protection to strait settlement and we return to do what we do best - trading and make money.

Closer ties with the USA are certainly going to be the norm. SG benefits from US foreign policy with regards to the pacific. Unlike australia we cannot participate in combat operations. We have to reciprocate in terms of providing bases and other infrastructure, and also being a stooge of US international relations. Australia and SG are key points of contact for the US and allow the US to be more effective in projecting power in the pacific.

 

[sleaguepunter]

bro,
good to note that we're pretty much on the same page. however, 1 year is not enough to churn out any decent military officer. a soldier must shoot straight, the NCO must lead and shoot straight, the officer must plan, lead and shoot straight. me think you know what i meant.

i agree that officer corp cannot churn out good officer in 1 year. most of us had seen it during our service on the standard of the officers be it NSF or regulars. As much as i respect my reservist PC, he still very inexperience and lack of knowledge on certain issue and make worst by not interested in the art of soldiering. As much as he is a patriotic officer, he can never be as good as a officer who enjoying being a soldier. as riflemen myself during NSF, never once were i deployed in the reverse slope of a hill defending against an enemy assault. always deployed in an area where arty can bombard at will, that itself already show how inexperience SAF company level officers are.

As for normal riflemen, one year is more than enough to train. we are not training to be delta force hor. even armour can be train in that time scale as long SAF willing to spend $$ on proper simulators and not those expensive local build simulators which are crap. Only the AMX13 simulators got a bit of standard but then AMX13 already being mothballed. i dunno how other vocations trained but armour training schedule can be cramp to 6 months of intensive training. btw, armour training manual should be rid of the infantry role, why should a specialised trained unit to be waste on a infantry mission when SAF already have so many infantry battlions?

 

[scroobal]

Since we are on this topic, Argentina and Falklands War comes to light. As the military junta increasing began to run the economy into the ground and they had committed atrocious human rights abuses, they had to divert the attention of their people. They chose a patriotic cause and chose the Falklands and British became their bogeyman. No one had a hint that a incident let alone a full scale war was going to take place.

Its the same with Malaysia and Indonesia. We have to be careful and we also have to ensure that they remain stable. Mahathir was notorious for playing bogeyman politics and the only thing stopping him and other idiots is the huge first strike capability. We allow the Indonesian and Malaysian politicians and Army to come to Singapore, stay at Hyatt, encourage the management to run Brannigans and an allow international smorgasboard of pussies to look after their needs for the very same reason. We are the biggest OKT in the region so that our kids can go school and Ah Pek can go have his Kopi Kow at his neighbourhood coffeeshop.

Thats life.