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Crumbling of Singapore?

Re: I Find TracyTan866 Strange

Wow, where have you been? If ever anyone knows about TT, it's got to be you. Why no picture and sound for so long?Yes, very strong on casinos as well.

eatshitanddie seems to know Tracy well:( I was busy and had some distractions.
I came in here occasionally to browse. No time to spend too much time here

To me, Tracy's prominent trait is that she is strongly against gambling and casinos. I am surprised some people thinks she is anti-NS...
 
This is an excellent thread. What started of as Sam's usual attempt to take the mickey out of someone has led to a full blown discussion between Sam and Tracy. Kudos to Tracy (Sumiko) to starting this discussion and keeping it real. Kudos to Sam for his thoughts. Kudos also to others who contributed to make this engaging. I have been watching this closely and it quite an intense and robust discussion. At this stage, I can see many valid points from all quarters. Would I highly recommend that this becomes a sticky at least for a while.

how come you know tracy is sumiko ah ? :mad:
 
sleaguepunter said:
i not only want them to streamline the conscription system, i would also like to scrape the ICTs system and have a volunteer militias, something like the US national guard.

My suggestion to have intensified ICT for the first 3 to 5 in camps is to allow full time NS to be cut short to 1 year or less so that the guys can enter the job market earlier which is probably the key complaint today. And if the NS is short enough not to impact the economy seriously, even female citizens could be roped in to handle the more admin or staff duties. The full time NS period can be devoted to individual field craft, use of weapons and equipment and the teaching of military doctrine, whereas the ICTs can be where full scale combat exercises are rehearsed. Today there is a lot of going through the motion, repetitive rather than progressive exercises. All the above would be needed if we believe that the country is worth defending or that it would give confidence to investors. Otherwise, it is a lot of money to be spent on something you might not need at all.
 
Is She An Anti-PAP ?

eatshitanddie seems to know Tracy well:( I was busy and had some distractions.
I came in here occasionally to browse. No time to spend too much time here

To me, Tracy's prominent trait is that she is strongly against gambling and casinos. I am surprised some people thinks she is anti-NS...


Is she an anti-PAP ? Obviously, she can't tell us, right. Why is she so upset about NSmen being found in malls during lunch time. I do just that because I hated NS anyway. But, I cannot stand those who were so-called loved NS also 'twung' and 'gheng'. Hypocrites !
 
Re: Is She An Anti-PAP ?




Is she an anti-PAP ? Obviously, she can't tell us, right. Why is she so upset about NSmen being found in malls during lunch time. I do just that because I hated NS anyway. But, I cannot stand those who were so-called loved NS also 'twung' and 'gheng'. Hypocrites !

(1) TracyTan is staunchly pro Singaporeans. From what I noticed, she appears to be anti any policy that is disadvantageous to Singaporeans.

(2) Because of (1), she may appear anti-NS because she has said that NS disadvantaged SG guys in favour of foreigners
 
This is an excellent thread. What started of as Sam's usual attempt to take the mickey out of someone has led to a full blown discussion between Sam and Tracy. Kudos to Tracy (Sumiko) to starting this discussion and keeping it real. Kudos to Sam for his thoughts. Kudos also to others who contributed to make this engaging. I have been watching this closely and it quite an intense and robust discussion. At this stage, I can see many valid points from all quarters. Would I highly recommend that this becomes a sticky at least for a while.

I am glad too that some of us are thinking abt the issues confronting SG and not be blinded by what few bad experiences we have experienced in other countries. There is really no basis to compare SG with other countries as they have their pecularities and we are not comparing apple to apple. What we shd do is to look at the strengths and weaknesses of SG..the opportunities and threats faced by SG and from that perspective, we gauge whether the govt has done well...

Whether SG does better than Malaysia, Indonesia, NZ or USA is not very relevant. Each country faces different challenges. Likewise, whether SMRT runs the SG MRT than London's Tube or HK's MTR is not as important as whether SMRT has run the MRT well.

Also, I dislike foreigners who do not know SG well or who have nvr been to SG commenting on SG..such ppl have no credibility in their comments. Has Robert Murdoch visited SG? How credible are his comments on SG? and why shd SG's MSN see it fit for them to highlight Murdoch's comments? Is it because he praised the PAP? The PAP has said that SG's politics shd be left to singaporeans...why didnt the MSN heed the pap's command?
 
She does well in her own way.... with responses which are designed to infuriate rather than than rebut. :D

Who did I infuriate with my posts?? you? Because I countered your comments and you had no answers? Because I asked you probing questions as what a debater wld do but you see that as I was out to infuriate you? Ask around and see who, besides you, were infuriated by me?

In a debate, when the opposition understands what the proposition is saying, he calls it rebut. But when the opposition is lost and cant counter the proposition, he calls it infuriating?
 
Sam, I have to agree with her. You have taken your new country for granted. There will always be warts. In the sum of things, it is ahead and will continue to be ahead. I also recall Nelson Rockefeller commenting decades ago that if only the Singapore govt was running NY, it would not go broke.

There is no doubt that Singapore manages and run things on a world class basis but they have looked after their citizens, never trusted their citizens, never believed in their citizens and never will create a thinking, nurturing and creative generation or generations. You will not see an iPhone, a cannondale, cirque de soleil, a Benetton or the next generation of painkillers.

Many of us could have remained in this country, enjoying the ruthless efficiency, hi level of basic needs and claim that we have 6 or 7 figures, 2 houses, 3 cars but we are kidding ourselves.

What is a pot smoking MP in the bigger scheme of things.

I once screwed a guy for telling me that taxes are high. He is now one happy chappie with a wonderful family in a beautiful part of Oxford and the family is grateful to me for yelling at their dad.

Sam keeps saying that SG is well run based on his experiences in NZ and aus...that's subjective reason which I dont subscribe..

My contention that PAP doesnt govern SG well is based on life in SG..

1. growing income inequality
2. neglect of the poor, aged and sick
3. low wage/high cost of living disequilibrium
4. chase of materialism
5. growing social divide
6. high stress levels of young singaporeans
7. the poor purchasing parity
8. high cost of housing
9. road congestion
10. poor quality of life
etc...
 
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There are many aspects of this debate. One is whether OZ and NZ is governed well. Another is whether the people live well. The same questions can be asked of Singapore and the question on governance can further be broken down into two parts - one of management, the other of policies and vision.

Sam believes that the lifestyle is good in NZ and OZ for some people, including himself, who like the easy life, expansive environs and the relaxed culture but in terms of management and, to some extent in policy, Singapore could be better. He further believes that the two are not directly related. This, I agree with him. The easy life and relaxed culture is very much a result of the culture of the people there, predominantly western culture, and further promoted by the spacious environment there. Land is cheap and you can build outwards but don't expect asset appreciation to do better than a city-state.

I also agree with him on the management aspect. They cannot do better than the dogged dedication of the Singaporean managers but this is where I begin to disagree with him that it is not the sole preserve of the PAP govt that this excellence in management is achieved. Whether it is in the cabinet where the projects are first formed to the passing of law by the lawmakers, if required, to the implementation by civil servants, contractors, sub-contractors and individual work, that excellence and dedication is maintained throughout.

Even in the private sector, the industry and dedication, the time-watching are all there and Singapore progresses economically. While it is in the culture of the west to appreciate the good life, and this is also a leaning adopted by many who were schooled in the west, the Asian culture is that of looking for improvement of economic status. This is the result partly of the cultural development triggered centuries ago by ancient teaching and partly by the competitive environment created by dense living.

If you ask me, whether a typical Asian will feel comfortable living by himself in suburbs of Australia, many will not be. He will feel he has nothing to do. A retiree might appreciate a more relaxed life but even that he will likely prefer the company of friends than the vast expanses of the Australian countryside for long stretch of time.

So it is in the culture of Asia to struggle on, whether it is PAP or some alternative party. On the policy aspect, the ruling party did made some major blunders that have long term repercussion not easy to reverse - the stop at two was one, asset enhancement through benchmarking HDB land to market was another which have caused, for the former a declining population not easy to correct organically and for the latter a general appreciation in the overall cost of living that has made Singapore uncompetitive, a situation not easy to reverse in a short time.

The privatization of essential services and utilities while good in concept, operation-wise, have not been regulated well enough to ensure that service quality and pricing is not compromised. I believe the govt is still learning the ropes in this privatization policy. But with so many things happen within a short time, they are still very much on the learning curve. I believe Tracy's grouse is with this.

Personally I feel the most critical failing of the Singapore Govt is in the political process. Although it makes for easy governance, it does not promote proper debate which a more proportional representative parliament can offer. How good can policies be if these are the brain children of only a few?

The fact that you see major policy reversals in the past means mistakes had been made. I also feel that as majority votes move towards 50% or even when there is no majority, a more proportional representative parliament will give us a more stable political environment with fewer surprises.

looking at life in SG as a whole, do you think Singapore is well managed by the present pap leaders?

Do you think that the pap leaders are leading SG on the right path? will Singaporeans be better off in future than we are now?
 
looking at life in SG as a whole, do you think Singapore is well managed by the present pap leaders?

Yes it is.

Do you think that the pap leaders are leading SG on the right path? will Singaporeans be better off in future than we are now?

Yes they will provided they give the PAP the support they need to make the necessary hard decisions for the common good.
 
I can see Tracy's pov and he's got good points. Tracy chose the word "crumbling" which hits the nail on the head.

.

I used the word "crumbling" because that's my honest opinion of how the pap is leading SG.

The pap has mismanaged SG by selling away key industries like all the power stations etc and giving POSB to DBS, key infrstructure like MRT to SMRT...DBS and SMRT are making huge profits based on infrastructure built with Singaporeans' monies..these SMRT and DBS profits are distributed to shareholders but nothing goes to Singaporeans...shouldnt the pap lease or loan POSB and MRT infrastructure to DBS and SMRT and charge them market rates. The shdnt be subsidised by Singaporeans. If the SMRT and DBS cant make a profit better than UOB or OCBC after paying whatever they use for their businesses, than the Mgmt Boards have not done well...that's the true KPIs.

The pap is so generous when they subsidise SMRT, DBS but is so stingy when helping the poor and sick in SG. Is this the kind of govt we want?
 
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That's very narrow logic. You can't point to a 60.1% mandate and say Singaporeans collectively approve on specific issues like boards of directorships for MPs. There was a wide variety of issues and people vote emotionally and subjectively as well. You can only conclude that people as a whole still prefer a PAP govt, regardless of personal dislike. As for individual issues like ministerial salaries and GST, the 60.1% does not indicate anything.

as I have said to LeongSam the 60% vote in 2011 was achieved through dubious means and many underhand tactics. is there any honour in sucha result?
 
Zhihau,

I also advocate the abolition of conscription and I have a feeling we can find quite a number of right-thinking singaporean males who would agree with us.

Problem is that agenda is never going to gain traction as the electorate will not buy it. The first question asked is whether a professional force can really protect SG. In geopolitics, the worst thing is to be rich and weak. They will fear SG will be very rich, but very weak without conscription.

The other concern is that those who have gone thru will never allow abolition. In fact, many parents want NS to be kept, even to the point of wanting their kids to serve NS well. I can't fathom it but thats a fact. I really don't know how to explain. Maybe stockholm syndrome.

Whatever the reasons, opposition in SG will never gain traction on the NS issue. And that means for thinking people like yourself you're stuck with it.

Abolition of NS wld be best, but unlikely.

The next best thing is that SG guys shd be least disadvantaged. if a guy is called up forr NS, he shd be paid market for what he is doing in NS..if he is posted to be a driver, pay him SBS's driver's pay. if he is posted as an infantry officer, pay him a regular infantry Officer's pay..the pap can get an SG guy into NS, but the right thing is to pay him market rate...the SAF has paid its regular force well. why not extend it to the guys who are called up for NS?
 
Some may hate to hear this... Absolutely true, need to provide best for immediate family & self first. May be emigrating is the answer. Not sure if this a minority view nowadays, but I suspect it's may be true that to be really fulfilled, one may need to contribute to improve society as well... where the heart is, where home is... Have emigrees easily done or felt this way of their adopted homeland? Actually, some here may have achieved the sweet spot of best of both worlds eg providing the forum. Not easy, but what other ways?

yes, do waht's best for your family..SG is a sinking ship
 
I don't mean to detract from the seriousness of the discussion for this thread. But here's something more light-hearted about the fate of PAP I heard from my friends. When lighting first struck the Merlion, a number of people interpreted as a very ominous sign of bad things to come for PAP. As the Merlion is symbolic of S'pore, they interpreted it as the heavens serving a warning to the PAP that they have reached the limits of their wickedness in not fulfilling the basic role of a government to look after its people but focus on gratifying their greed for wealth instead. Soon after that, all the mishaps start to occur one after another (as the PAP did not heed the lighting warning and was unrepentant) for example, MAS Selamat escape, the great floods, GIC and Temasek doomed investments, the poor showing in both the GE (with a PAP candidate having to withdraw the very last minute and PE (with Tony Tan being the first PAP PE candidate to be badly battered by the voters as in the exposure of his son's NS status) and now the MRT incidents. If we believe all these, the heavens will punish the PAP even more so in the coming months and years that will eventually lead to TracyTan's title for this thread "Crumbling of Singapore"

Bad omen to the pap?
 
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