China’s rise to superpower in peace is a first for mankind

[duluxe]

View attachment 188815

China is plundering africa natural resources and debt traps african corrupted governments. Nothing is free, Sri Lanka is good example how CCP's hidden loans works.

 

[duluxe]

From port cities, minerals, to military base, CCP's Evil strategy in Africa Explained By A Chinese:​

https://www.sammyboy.com/threads/fr...tegy-in-africa-explained-by-a-chinese.348497/

 

[superpower]

China is plundering africa natural resources and debt traps african corrupted governments. Nothing is free, Sri Lanka is good example how CCP's hidden loans works.

Don't be misled by the Western media with their hidden agenda.

The CCP will be the first to acknowledge that all their initiatives are to (1) benefit China's search for resources to grow the economy and (2) at the same time develop infrastructure in Africa. Win-win.

Debt trap? There's debt to be sure - Santa Claus doesn't exist - someone has to come out with the money and loans... but trap? If you can't pay back the loan, I'll continue to run your ports and railways in the meantime - you still benefit from the infrastructure and taxes and trade engendered by it while I reap a % of the profits.

Or would you rather have the IMF/WB debt trap, backed by the US? Where you're given high interest loans, forced to open your markets to Western products and agricultural produce and MNCs, remove all subsidies for your farmers and nascent industry, give up IP rights on your crops (Monsanto wanted to patent basmati rice), and have all these MNCs remit their profits back home or to some tax haven? The ones who benefit ultimately are the corrupt rulers (and their families) and the Western corporations; the masses remain poor and disempowered. Any wonder why central African states are experiencing coup after coup?

Decades after the Global South states have achieved independence, what have these IMF/WB loan schemes and aid achieved? More global debt, more failed states, more coups, more authoritarians regimes and military juntas taking over democracies. Subsaharan Africa still subsisting on per capita income of USD2k. And the West gets richer by the day.

The exploitation and ravaging of the 3rd World by Western (ex-)colonial powers haven't abated; they've just morphed into a different form.

 

[superpower]

@superpower your CCP master's new 10 dash line, the lanjiao enlarged so long you call there raise in peace? It's bullying small countries.

Bro, the CCP not my master la. I'm a mercenary and the CCP pays me only 10¢ per post. I may switch allegiance if Uncle Sam pays me more.

 

[Likemeat]

e.g. duluxe (Indian Hindu) ranting on about Islam and China, mudhatter and syed putra (Malay, DKK) standing up for Malay rights.

Nope. Syed putra is anti-umno/Pas/Pn (Malays) and anti Islam.

 

[myfoot123]

I'm a pragmatist: at the end of the day, what matters is good governance, whether it's democracy, communism, or even a traditional feudal monarchy.

I've seen so many failed states which had adopted Western-style democracies (quite a few in SE Asia alone). And commie states like Vietnam and Cuba which thrived despite sanctions.

China under communism has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, raised living standards, established gender equality, invested in infrastructure. Probably the greatest social uplift within 2 generations in history. At the cost of some freedoms, of course. The CCP is fighting massive corruption within the party ranks; we'll see how it pans out.

India, a liberal democracy with about the same population size and modern founding period, has done a much poorer job in raising living standards and fighting factionalism and caste divisions. But there's more freedom there. And despite the institutionalized rule of law, corruption is probably much worse than in China.

Both are huge socio-political experiments. In 2023, would you prefer to live in India or China (putting aside ancestral and linguistic affiliations)?

You will agitate many CECA members in this forum.

 

[duluxe]

Don't be misled by the Western media with their hidden agenda.

The CCP will be the first to acknowledge that all their initiatives are to (1) benefit China's search for resources to grow the economy and (2) at the same time develop infrastructure in Africa. Win-win.

Debt trap? There's debt to be sure - Santa Claus doesn't exist - someone has to come out with the money and loans... but trap? If you can't pay back the loan, I'll continue to run your ports and railways in the meantime - you still benefit from the infrastructure and taxes and trade engendered by it while I reap a % of the profits.

Or would you rather have the IMF/WB debt trap, backed by the US? Where you're given high interest loans, forced to open your markets to Western products and agricultural produce and MNCs, remove all subsidies for your farmers and nascent industry, give up IP rights on your crops (Monsanto wanted to patent basmati rice), and have all these MNCs remit their profits back home or to some tax haven? The ones who benefit ultimately are the corrupt rulers (and their families) and the Western corporations; the masses remain poor and disempowered. Any wonder why central African states are experiencing coup after coup?

Decades after the Global South states have achieved independence, what have these IMF/WB loan schemes and aid achieved? More global debt, more failed states, more coups, more authoritarians regimes and military juntas taking over democracies. Subsaharan Africa still subsisting on per capita income of USD2k. And the West gets richer by the day.

The exploitation and ravaging of the 3rd World by Western (ex-)colonial powers haven't abated; they've just morphed into a different form.

You are writing to make CCP sounds like holy angels, they are not. CCP don't even care about the environment, they plundered the resources, over mining and cause pollution. Nothing is for free, when the african countries cannot pay the loans, the ChiComs gain control, that is their motives from the start, like you say they are not Santa Claus.There will be prices to pay for plundering the nature by future generations. You look at the facades, but cannot see what's that is behind. Communists are grand master in propaganda.

 

[duluxe]

Tell that to tibetans, mongolians uighyrs and manchoos.

You old friend reincarnated and back here as somebody else.

 

[duluxe]

China under communism has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, raised living standards, established gender equality, invested in infrastructure. Probably the greatest social uplift within 2 generations in history. At the cost of some freedoms, of course. The CCP is fighting massive corruption within the party ranks; we'll see how it pans out.

It was the CCP who plunged the whole country into severe proverty, backwardness and starvation during the Great Leap Forwards and Culture Revolution. Someone pushed you into the water, then saved you. Should you feel grateful to him?

 

[superpower]

It was the CCP who plunged the whole country into severe proverty, backwardness and starvation during the Great Leap Forwards and Culture Revolution. Someone pushed you into the water, then saved you. Should you feel grateful to him?

Going by your logic, no nation/institution can command any allegiance based on historical atrocities.

The very same Republicans who institutionalized slavery (and many grievous human rights abuses) were also the ones who abolished it. The people who grabbed land in Australia and decimated the natives and stole their babies are also their rulers today. 1,000 years of witch hunts, crusades, Inquisitions, persecution of scientists should justify the bombing the Vatican to smithereens today.

And in our time a clown named Trump in the world's 'greatest' democracy wanted to stage a coup against the newly elected presidency - should Americans banish the Republican Party once and for all?

Takeaways:
1. Every country, democratic or authoritarian, will have its dark periods when an inept leader plunges the country into crisis.
2. Every country, democratic or authoritarian, will also have its opportunities to renew, reform, and rise from the ashes. Granted, in an electoral democracy, it's easier to change leaders, though not necessarily for the better (the many failed states in our region are instructive here).
3. To overthrow the CCP for its past mistakes is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The consequences are unimaginable, for both China and the world. Because what's the alternative? (You get rid of the PAP, WP and some opposition parties can form a coalition government at least).

Let me tell you: no one is more aware of the egregious excesses of Mao's reign than the CCP. He was a great wartime leader, but a fucked up peacetime head of state. Ask any man on the street, even an uneducated peasant, and they'll tell you the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution cost China 20 years of technological progress. If there's one thing you can be sure of, it's that the CCP learns (and continues to learn) from the past.

In an electoral democracy, you fuck up your term, the oppo takes over, but you have another 4 or 5 years to win it back. Life goes on.
In a one-party state like China, you lose the plot, it will be the end: unrest, riots, civil war, anarchy. 1911 all over again.

That's why the CCP are control freaks. They can't afford to take a wrong step, stability matters above all, they have to put food on the table, grow the economy, provide jobs, keep the people happy. Like the PAP. That's why they over-react all the time (like during COVID). And that's why they'll never wish for war over Taiwan.

Running a non-elected one-party state engenders a totally different psyche and mentality altogether. One wrong step and the nation collapses. Because there's no alternative.

 

[superpower]

1. Good governance is what engenders stability and prosperity for a nation.
2. No political system guarantees good governance, democracy or communism or feudal monarchy or theocracy.
3. Among all the imperfect systems, democracy gives the best odds of changing the government without violence. That is its strength.

 

[duluxe]

Going by your logic, no nation/institution can command any allegiance based on historical atrocities.

The very same Republicans who institutionalized slavery (and many grievous human rights abuses) were also the ones who abolished it. The people who grabbed land in Australia and decimated the natives and stole their babies are also their rulers today. 1,000 years of witch hunts, crusades, Inquisitions, persecution of scientists should justify the bombing the Vatican to smithereens today.

You are comparing between 2 different eras, the imperialism, colonialism era and modern era. I am comparing in the same era. All mainlanders agree that the new china started from 1949.

 

[duluxe]

@superpower (keep dreaming)

The methologies of the ChiComs during Mao's era are not different from today. Do you know China is having the 2nd Great Leap Forwards NOW?

The first one involved steel production. The 2nd Great Leap Forwards involves GDP acceleration through massive infra buildings. The over construction of ghost towns and under utilised high roads, the cost in destruction and pollution of environment (sand from river is required to make concrete) and big wastage of resources.

CCP communist ways of centralised planning have failed. Even Lee KA Shing smelled china's properties market is collapsing, and he has already safely retreated, haha.

 

[eatshitndie]

ccp superpower at emulating angmoh towns and cities but all empty inside and out.

 

[duluxe]

ccp superpower at emulating angmoh towns and cities but all empty inside and out.

CCP is cutting corners, building fast to big leap to reach developed nation status, why don't UN just grant China their desired status? At least it will help to save mother nature and reduce resource wastage.

 

[winnipegjets]

According to the US, they are beating China and China will eventually kowtow to the US. I believe.

 

[superpower]

You are comparing between 2 different eras, the imperialism, colonialism era and modern era. I am comparing in the same era. All mainlanders agree that the new china started from 1949.

Modern China starts from 1949, under the CCP. Agree.

The US? All Americans agree that the birth of modern American democracy came with the Declaration of Independence in 1776, almost 250 years ago. The system has remained practically unchanged since, save so for some constitutional amendments. Read up your history of America and see the inglorious and heinous deeds of the nation (alongside the other European powers) leading up to its pre-eminent status in the 20th century.

Maybe it will be better to hold your horses and look at China again in 2159: the CCP might not even be there anymore, or it might have morphed, or the nation might even (God forbid!) have turned into a liberal democracy. Or even a hegemonistic imperial power like the present-day US. Or simply reverted back to a feudal monarchy. God knows.

Only one thing is sure: a civilization which has survived 5,000 years will continue to do so. Up and down. Up and down. Only cockroaches and the Chinese will survive a nuclear holocaust.

 

[superpower]

According to the US, they are beating China and China will eventually kowtow to the US. I believe.

Actually it's a matter of time before China's nominal GDP overtakes the US'. (Actually surpassed some time back on PPP basis.) It's only a matter of when. The current economic downturn may push it back further, but it's inevitable. Deep down inside, the US administration knows that too.

Why do you think the US is running scared and trying its best to suppress China through a combination of sanctions (Huawei), geopolitical encirclement (Quad, ANZAC, Five Eyes) and fomenting internal unrest (HK) and terrorism (XInjiang) and separatism (Tibet, Taiwan)? It's not rocket science.

 

[nightsafari]

I'm a pragmatist: at the end of the day, what matters is good governance, whether it's democracy, communism, or even a traditional feudal monarchy.

I've seen so many failed states which had adopted Western-style democracies (quite a few in SE Asia alone). And commie states like Vietnam and Cuba which thrived despite sanctions.

you really need to see Cuba. For you to make that statement means you've never been there.

China under communism has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, raised living standards, established gender equality, invested in infrastructure. Probably the greatest social uplift within 2 generations in history. At the cost of some freedoms, of course. The CCP is fighting massive corruption within the party ranks; we'll see how it pans out.

That's just not true. I've seen this insanely incorrect statement made too many times. What every dumbass on the internet attributes to be communism lifting the people out of property is a mistaken conclusion. What actually happened is that communism under Mao artificially kept the Chinese people in poverty post WW2. As the saying goes : can't see the wood from the trees.

Under Deng, state interference in the economy was sidelined and capitalist style market reforms took place. That gave rise to foreign trade and direct investment, and what actually happened is that the Chinese people brought themselves out of poverty after the Dear Leaders stopped the communist suppression. So really the credit goes to the Chinese people and not some Marxist Mandarins who lorded it over their own people.

You need to differentiate between communism politically and communism economically. China and Vietnam in the modern era are communist politically and in name only. In fact, you can easily see the same result in Vietnam's development when they adopted a free market.

Cuba and Venezuela is communist in both. Good luck to you if you want to live there.

India, a liberal democracy with about the same population size and modern founding period, has done a much poorer job in raising living standards and fighting factionalism and caste divisions. But there's more freedom there. And despite the institutionalized rule of law, corruption is probably much worse than in China.

Do you actually have any real world experience or just writing based on printed data? Since when does India have institutionalized rule of law? It has an institutionalized disregard for the rule of law. A veritable cesspool of corruption where the laws are not worth the paper they're printed on and only apply to those who can't pay.

Both are huge socio-political experiments. In 2023, would you prefer to live in India or China (putting aside ancestral and linguistic affiliations)?

Neither. A cesspool nor lord of the flies in a 21st century megalopolis do not fit my idea of preferred habitats.

 

[nightsafari]

Let me tell you: no one is more aware of the egregious excesses of Mao's reign than the CCP. He was a great wartime leader, but a fucked up peacetime head of state. Ask any man on the street, even an uneducated peasant, and they'll tell you the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution cost China 20 years of technological progress. If there's one thing you can be sure of, it's that the CCP learns (and continues to learn) from the past.

That's a laughable statement. The current leader is Mao 2.0. He is exactly replicating all of Mao's mistakes. He's definitely not learning from the past other than copying it outright.

In an electoral democracy, you fuck up your term, the oppo takes over, but you have another 4 or 5 years to win it back. Life goes on.
In a one-party state like China, you lose the plot, it will be the end: unrest, riots, civil war, anarchy. 1911 all over again.

That's why the CCP are control freaks. They can't afford to take a wrong step, stability matters above all, they have to put food on the table, grow the economy, provide jobs, keep the people happy. Like the PAP. That's why they over-react all the time (like during COVID). And that's why they'll never wish for war over Taiwan.

Running a non-elected one-party state engenders a totally different psyche and mentality altogether. One wrong step and the nation collapses. Because there's no alternative.

That's equally laughable. Earlier you mentioned that Chinese will keep on surviving like cockroaches, but now they're too fragile if one government collapses. You can't have it both ways.

For goodness sakes, the Chinese have gone through so many governments even foreign ones and they're still here. There has never been a greater threat to Chinese-ness than a communist government yet you believe it to be good for the people. No government in the entire history of China has brought about a quicker ruin to China's culture, traditions and sense of community. Not even the Mongols or the Manchus.

Those intangibles that have kept the people strong and together for those millennia yet you will support a government that readily wipes out what makes China Chinese? China people have remarked in private but not readily in public on how surprised they were to see overseas Chinese carrying on the traditions of their ancestors. Your argument is totally without merit.