• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

Association of Muslim Professionals finally wake up and take their PAP partner.

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
even the bicycle thief shall get my vote!

personally i wld even vote for the proverbial bicycle thief under present circumstances...so by default i too wld cast my vote for gms:rolleyes::biggrin:
GMS is at it again,one really wonders whether he knows what is a "war"?Typically he likes to talk like a MENTOR-meaning one who has made it.

Has GMS made it already,I think he has not even started!

Anyway,he & his party would get my vote.Sad that as a Spore citizen,I have to cast my vote for such an idiot,but it is my choice of course,circumstances prevail.
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: Ibans, Orang Laut n Orang Asli

The native people (before Dutch, British, Indian and Chinese arrivals) in Borneo and Indonesia are not even Malays at all. The deep south Thai-Muslims are closer to Malays than them. They're all of disparate tribes, Javanese, Sumatrans, Bugis etc. and the Malay tribe in peninsular Malaya was just one of these tribes. The distinct separation came of course when the British and Dutch partititioned this area into British Malaya (now Malaysia) and Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia).
 

Jah_rastafar_I

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: Ibans, Orang Laut n Orang Asli

The native people (before British and and Chinese arrivals) in Borneo and Indonesia are not even Malays at all. The deep south Thai-Muslims are closer to Malays than them. They're all of disparate tribes, Javanese, Sumatrans, Bugis etc. and the Malay tribe in peninsular Malaya was just one of these tribes. The distinct separation came of course when the British and Dutch partititioned this area into British Malaya (now Malaysia) and Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia).


Don't even try and delve into that. According to some self proclaimed intellectual here these ppl can be considered malays cos you know their outer physical appearance looks like a malay. :rolleyes: Thus all cos they look like malays a malay has equal say on claiming the land that these ppl reside in.


Yet somehow this logic he has given doesn't apply to the east asian countries. For eg a chinese cannot claim japan as his own despite the fact that he looks so much like a jap. The same applies to mongolia and even tibet. I really want to know the answer why there's such a double standard but the asshole didn't even reply.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Rational Compromise rather than Irrational War

u r being disingenuous here bro...

this was hardly the case in malaya, malaysia(pre65 n post 65) n in singapore as well...

fact of the matter is that race, language n religion r v complex thorny intractable issues...this has been clearly demonstrated throughout histroy n shall probably continue to be the case in the foreseeable future unless there is another 'outside' common enemy like say an alien force...

we r what we r...tribal like creatures...what is required under such circumstances(i.e. non homogenuous state) is compromise based on what is fair, just, equitable n reasonable...not just by letter but in spirit as well...however being human i.e. flawed imperfect creatures...well it is v difficult to reach a perfect state of compromise...but that does not mean we sld not try n evolve n progress towards the acme of enlightenment...definitely better n more rational to move in this positive direction than to go to 'war' wif each other...

I have also stated this before. If not for the fact that you Chinese are now treating our land as though you own it and as though it is a Mandarin speaking province of China, we would have continued to welcome you as our brothers and sisters and as co-owners of our land instead of asking you to pack up and leave and return to where you belong, i.e. China.
 

Boliao

Alfrescian
Loyal
... The problem with the Chinese is that they associate us with Malaysia and conveniently overlook the simple fact that we need not and are not claiming ownership on the basis of being Malaysians but on the basis of being the righful owners of this island...

I am always puzzled as to why Malays keep thinking that they are the rightful owners of this island? For a start, did their Tunku not sell this island to the British?

This mentality has done nothing but turned them into bitter, self pitiful souls who keeps blaming others for what they did not/ could not achieve.

I have many wonderful Malay friends and they are successful because they work hard. They work hard because they understand that nobody owes them a living and they have to make it on their own merit.

As an employer, I can tell you that nothing impress me more than Malays who are intelligent and hardworking.They are rare and they cherish every single opportunity given to them.

Sure, there is racism. Live is never fair; even to a Chinese.

 

Jah_rastafar_I

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
I am always puzzled as to why Malays keep thinking that they are the rightful owners of this island? For a start, did their Tunku not sell this island to the British?

This mentality has done nothing but turned them into bitter, self pitiful souls who keeps blaming others for what they did not/ could not achieve.

I have many wonderful Malay friends and they are successful because they work hard. They work hard because they understand that nobody owes them a living and they have to make it on their own merit.

As an employer, I can tell you that nothing impress me more than Malays who are intelligent and hardworking.They are rare and they cherish every single opportunity given to them.

Sure, there is racism. Live is never fair; even to a Chinese.




Yes you're another one that sees the situation as it is. This moniker MMVPAP is a joke. Even blaming his own race's mentality on how the chinese see them but yet in the very same paragraph shoots his own foot by saying his race likes to take it easy in life.


Nobody owes anyone a living and that's especially true for a chinese.

If there was a chinese moniker similar to mmvpap that went around blaming everyone else for his failures would he even have 1 forummer in here standing up for him? :rolleyes:

In fact i blame ppl like screwball and co for spoiling ppl like mmvpap and not giving him the correct attitude in life. This is similar to how the malays in malaysia behave. Why are the malays in malaysia less driven and thus when they take over companies these companies end up losing money instead compared to companies run by chinese ppl for eg? Cos the law of malaysia protects them and babysits them so much that they don't even know how to fend for themselves. They are actually less competent compared to the other races but of course if anyone dares to state this fact he's called a racist.
 
Last edited:

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
let us hv a dialogue

sorry but i dont agree wif u on this one...i assert that singapore is somewhat akin to say the US...i.e. only the pure red indians hv a legitimate indigenuous claim to the US...likewise only the pure Orang Laut hv a legitimate indigenuous claim to singapore...n i maintain this position regardless of Art 152of the constitution(which btw i note i was the first to mention in this thread, n i say this merely to show that i come wif 'clean hands')...fact of the matter is this...Art 152 was written purely n solely for pragmatic political reasons only...it was an illusory token purely becoz of regional realities...if there was a legitimate basis than proper institutional n structural affirmative action wld hv been implemented not just the piecemeal crumbs that were handed out...

The long and short of it is quite simple. The Malays have a claim on this island as native and both you and I are not. This is an argument no politician of non-malay stock will go into unless he is playing to the non-malay gallery and therefore is clearly playing the race card.

yes...save for the last bit...if we r talking real hard truths out in the open based in good faith n clear conscience...than i say let us do away wif this illusory token Art 152 n move towards a true singaporean psyche n identity...no more bs...

The ideal approach is to talk about nationhood and to develop a Singapore psyche. That means to ensure that all 4 main races are given equal rights and attention. The Malays have a constitutional position that is above all others in recognition of their native status, something we should all accept gracefully.

100% yes...cherian dealt wif this quite well in his 'air-con book' a decade ago, but naturally wifout the "hard truths"...it wld appear that only harry has this 'regal privilege' as it now stands...

The PAP has played the race card with SAP schools. We know that for fact. You and I cannot give a valid reason why SAP schools exist but to hold on to the language. The language interestingly is not the mother tongue of the Chinese majority but something that put the old man in equal terms with his political opponents. If mother tongue is so important, then there should have been SAP Malay, Indian and Eurasian schools. That is not the case. Look at River Valley School. It now is in old St Andrews with running track and all plus some lecture style setting. This is political.

yes...but let me add singaporean born n raised parents...

You are product of SAP school and will never know the feeling of integration and attending school with those of other races on a daily basis. I think you will also realise that well educated parents will always send their kids to RI and missionary schools rather than SAP schools. Do you know why? A well rounded education means opening one's eyes and seeing the world. SAP in all shape and form is a political tool. It is also unfair to other non Chinese Singaporeans. Old Man closed Sang Nila Utama Malay school but chose build SAP school.

does this not imply perhaps that the apparent sinicization of singapore society in the last 30 odd yrs may hv something to do wif this situation to a certain extent at least?...for eg. cld it be that a large majority of middle class singapore indians emigrated in the 80s...thus generally leaving behind only working class n elite class singapore indians?...i personally saw this wif my own eyes when i returned to singapore in the mid 90s after living abroad for well over a decade...for eg. all the pump attendants n carpark attendants were largely singapore indians...this was not the case prior to the early 80s...same wif security guards n other v menial v low paid jobs...in fact i sensed when i first returned that the singapore indians had generally gone backwards n that in fact the singapore malays had generally improved albeit by not that much but still relatively better...i looked ard n sensed that the singapore indian middle class had hollowed out in the decade that i was away...

no doubt now we hv the 'new' pool of 'indian singaporeans' but it is clear that they r different just like the 'new' pool of 'chinese singaporeans'...so how do we address n solve this 'new' complex problem created by harry n the paps?...again i quote ngiam in this regard..."to practise social engineering is fraught wif risk...but to practise political engineering is positively dangerous..."

The only leeway that I want to see is affirmative action where the races are seen across work and other social spectrum. In our first 30 years of our existence, I saw a sprinkling of Indians and Eurasians holding senior positions in Govt right up to Perm Sec and they were all capable. You also see it in the professions such as medicine, law and accountancy. Now all you see is a sea of Chinese. So what happened. Suddenly the Indians and Eurasians became lazy, stupid or progressive turned dumb. The situation became so bad that in 2007, they went out of the Admin service to find a non-chinese Perm Sec.

yes, yes, yes...

Some of us have now realised that we now in a similar boat when the decision was made to allow non-citizens admission to Admin Service in 1991. With the presence of Ah Tiongs and Ah Nehs our backs are now against the wall. See the complaints from Singapore Chinese about PRC scholars, bond skipping, behaviour in the workplace. Note when the NTU lecturer ended up in hospital, it was PRC students that was constantly visiting him to suck up to him.

Get the picture. You have to make up your mind. You either aspire a Singapore for Singaporeans or protect Mandarin which is not your mother tongue but your gateway to protecting the Chinese culture in a foreign land. You can't have both.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
sorry roy

sorry roy but no no no...it sld not be acceptable in singapore for sound fair logical n reasonable reasons that i hv stated abv...

By the way, you have every right to feel left out if you are working in a Malay/Indian majority workplace and most of them speak Malay or any of the Indian dialects. Especially in Singapore. But, you have to accept such stuff when you are working in a foreign country where its their language. I suppose you also have to accept it here if you work for a Chinese or Malay owned private company..
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Trash this political 'animal'

let us just do away wif this political 'animal' altogether...no more SAP bs...btw i am not saying get rid of those schools...u want to learn higher chinese go ahead if u hv the aptitude n desire...same goes for malay n tamil etc...

pity u did not get the opportunity to study at my alma mater...sorry bro cld not resist the dig...me unfortunately still quite the 'snob' at times...me bad:rolleyes::p:biggrin:

auspicium melioris aevi

As one who graduated from a SAP school, I understand the handicap I have here.

The SAP school concept was a compromised solution to the closing of Nantah. To solve the problem of Chinese medium schools when Nantah was closed down. Yes, it may be political in nature initially.

I do agree that all races should be given similar treatment, to have SAP for them as well. In fact I think if SAP schools become a school for students to learn higher level of languages for all, including Malay and Tamil, that would be great.Goh Meng Seng
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Market Economy = Chinese Values????

since when was market economy derived fm "chinese values"?...

I have already addressed your "carrying their own weight in society" in the past by telling you not to be judgmental and judge us by your extremely materialistic Chinese values.

It is the equivalent of us telling you Chinese to be more spiritual and think of the afterlife and telling you not to be too obsessed with positions, money and worldly goods and materialistic possessions which we believe to be ephemeral.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
this is not a zero sum game

under present circumstances u may well be right...

It will be a strategic blunder of momentous proportion and we will be signing our own death warrants if we vote against the PAP. What would we be voting for is simply more chauvinistic Chinese groups to deal with.
.

then i hope u think rationally long n hard...without emotion...perhaps then u n yr ilk shall realise that this is not a zero sum game...same goes for our relationships wif our regional neighbours in particular u know who n u know who too!!

Please remember, we are no fools. .
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: Trash this political 'animal'

There's no such thing as "higher" Malay, with apologies but have to be frank and blunt. Higher Chinese syllabus requires studies tracing back 2 to 4 millennia of civilisation and literature. Frank and blunt to the truth again, during those periods Malays hadn't even emerged from the jungles yet. I mean no disrespect to my Malay friends and compatriots, but if this the line of argument they want to take, then let's all take it with an open mind, and let's be open about it. The Arabs first taught the Malays how to write about 4 centuries ago, that's Jawi. Then the Portugese and British taught the Roman alphabet to Malays, that was about 2 to 3 centuries ago, that's the Malay Rumi we see today. Where got "higher" Malay to teach? Of course, the answer is in Islam and Arabic, that can be traced back beyond a millennium.
 

Malays Must Vote PAP!

Alfrescian
Loyal
But what has it got to do with Malays? No Chinese is accusing Malays of speaking Malay to each other or forcing them to speak Mandarin.

I have already said this. Your "chang huayi, huaren huayi" stand are your Chinese tudungs and burqas.

And if your stand is that this "chang huayi, huaren huayi" has nothing to do with Malays, what have our tudungs or the way we practice our faith got to do with you Chinese?
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
I have already said this. Your "chang huayi, huaren huayi" stand are your Chinese tudungs and burqas.

And if your stand is that this "chang huayi, huaren huayi" has nothing to do with Malays, what have our tudungs or the way we practice our faith got to do with you Chinese?

Language to language. Malays speak Malay to Malay, Chinese speak Chinese to Chinese. What has it got to do with costumes? All of us speak basically English to each other with some mutually understood Singlish Malay or Singlish Chinese. Why not?
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Realpolitik

in theory u may well be right...

but when u look at grd realities...regional n geopolitical realities...realpolitik...it does not appear to look all that black n white afterall...in this regard read harry's hardtruths n his earlier works on foreign policy...generally i tend to agree wif his foreign policy analysis...also read raja's thinking on foreign policy n how this has shaped s'pore's foreign policy...lots of interesting new or quite new books on this critical subject i.e. the survival of singapore's sovereignty...

i tell u when it comes to foreign policy...singapore has been blessed wif true great minds in the likes of harry n raja...n the first n 2nd generation policy wonks in the AS...


My point has always been that all your talk about Malay awakening in Singapore is nonsense.

1) What is important is rule of law
2) Singapore is majority controlled by Chinese and there is no possibility of dubious claims by Malays on land in Singapore
3) Pedra Branca - a perfect example of Malaysia trying to prove historic claim on that island vs Singapore's legal claim and you see the result.
4) The only possibility of any form of Tanah Melayu is for you to go buy a small piece of freehold land.
5) Singapore is a sov nation and not beholden to China or any country.
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: Is the ummah united?

I'm surprised he mentioned that cause 1,000 million to 6 million and they lost.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
What abt the demos...

u r spot on viz the demos issue...but it is an obvious deduction...a no brainer if u look at the stats...

in this regard i tend to agree wif harry to some extent to try n keep the demos on even keel status quo...although how do this in a way that keeps a singaporean identity(that has yet to evolve?!) in tact is a whole other piece of salami altogether!!...

look let's talk hard truths again...if the local demos were to go say close to 55-39 chinese/malay...wif the gap fast closing...do u actually think there wld not be some kinda of trouble n rumbling?...just look across the causeway...what has changed since the last big race riots in the late 60s followed by 30 odd yrs plus of bumi policies...then look further afield to all states which r not homogenuous n wif no dominant majority ethnic grp...is there trouble or is there peace harmony n growth?...u tell me...this is why the late huntington wrote abt the unknown effect to the US in the next 50 odd yrs if its demos continues as it now stands...hispanic majority looming in the horizon...what shall this bring n how will the declining white 'majority' deal wif this situation...will the States continue to be vibrant creative innovative n generally at peace, harmonious n stable?...will it still continue to attract the best talent in the world?...


It's about the population demographics and not about the number of citizen + PR or EP or WP, for that matter. LKY is not worred about losing elections. He is worried about a popular revolt. As long as the "practical" Chinese form the overwhelming majority; he is safe. That is why there has been a long standing policy in place, given the declining fertility rate of the Chinese since 1980; that the Chinese majority must be maintained at all cost even by importing Confucian stock from abroad. That is reason why the coffeestall owner in Little India has to employ a PRC to flip pratas as the quota for indians has been filed.

Listen to what LKY himself had to say about the importance of maintaining the 75% Chinese proportion:

"We have a practical people whose culture tells them that contention for the sake of contention leads to disaster. I have said this on many a previous occasion; that had the mix in Singapore been different, had it been 75% Indians, 15% Malays and the rest Chinese, it would not have worked. Because they believe in the politics of contention, of opposition. But because the culture was such that the populace sought a practical way out of their difficulties, therefore it has worked." Lee Kuan Yew in Parliament, 1985.





-
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
this is not a zero sum game

like i said before...i hear yr pain...i empathise wif u...but i still encourage n invite u to search for a more rational compromise where u still progress in whatever way u wish but wifout cracking too many eggs at the same time...

this is not a zero sum game...

peace be wif u:smile:
Many, many years ago, I was asked to stay back after school to re-write my very first essay. This was because the racist Chinese teacher thought that I had asked someone (presumably a clever Chinese) to write as she could not believe that a Malay whose destiny, she believed, lay in being a peon or driver to a Chinese could actually write and think critically. A few racists insults came flying my way from her mouth.

We have done everything that we can to the point of feeling utter humiliation in having to grovel before the Chinese to seek acceptance and in order to prove our worth, loyalty, etc. What do we get back? We get a kick in our mouths. Need to speak Mandarin at the workplace? Okay we will try to assimilate and learn to speak Mandarin. And of course, our people still don't get the job because they are then asked whether they can write in Chinese, etc.

The Chinese have been inflicting, over a few decades, a severe psychological damage on the collective psyche of my people. They have done so by constantly belittling and humiliating us as useless, lazy, good for nothings, etc when in truth, we simply do not share and are not interested in the rapacious, materialistic values and acquisitive culture of the Chinese.

We have decided that enough is enough. There is a point where we stop rolling over and start hitting back. We have adopted a tit-for tat response.

Start your SAP schools and we will start our madrasahs. Speak you Mandarin and we will speak our Malay. Rekindle your ties with the Malaysian Chinese and we will rekindle our ties with the Malaysian Malays. Seek support and kinship with your one billion global Chinese kin and we will seek support and kinship with our one billion global Muslim ummah. Treat our land as though you are owners and can turn it into a Mandarin speaking province of China and we will respond by reasserting our claims over our land and telling you to pack up and leave. The tit-for tat list will go on.

I have already explained why it is not in our strategic interest to vote for another Chinese party. Unless you can show me a Chinese party who will defend our strategic interest, we will be happy to consider it. You and I know that there are none and that we will be worse off if we have to deal with more Chinese parties under various clans or political groupings. You and I know that the duplicitous Chinese "activists" and political opportunists have jumped onto our bandwagon trying to show their "care" and "concern" for our community with the hope of winning our votes and nothing else. That is also the reason why you had to coach that SAP-NSP guy about what to say about the Malays when he revealed his true colours.
 
Top