Are you guys sure YingLuck is pretty?

[Jah_rastafar_I]

then why u dont google for the teochew words when i ask u previously?

are u racial abuse as a kid?

goodday and dont bother to reply.

which teochew words did you ask me?

Nope not racialLY abused (bad english )

How about you were you bullied by chinese last time so you kiss others ass?

Bias lying pos anyhow type shit when i mentioned that taiwanese dramas were long winded and i was correct but you said i didn't know everything chinese? When i caught you on it you said you didn't read properly. What a joke!

You want to kiss his ass go ahead nobody's stopping you.

 

[Forvendet]

give cixi her dues, she could want guangxu to solidfy manchu rule and make him a legitimate ruler that why she want guangxu to front the reforms.

cixi was not a stick in the m&d, she know china need to modernize in order to remain in power. There were reforms in the govt to modernize the nation. Li Hongzhang reform the army, those in his command was reorganised as Xin Jun, new army, equip with modern fire arms and artillery. Many nobles sons were sent oversea to study and learn from the west. there were many more examples so cixi maybe cruel but she not as stupid as what the folklore decipt her as.

The reform by kang youwei is political reform which threaten manchu rule. which ruling house want reform that will undermined their own power?

British and many European monarchies went through that to save their own ruling houses in perpetuality. It's called constitutional monarchy instead of absolute monarchy. It's not undermining power. It's distribution of powers and roles. The Emperor was wise enough to understand that and wanted to implement that with a smooth transition. The Europeans supported the Emperor. He was wise enough but not strong enough to overcome that Empress Dowager despot who in the end turned desperado and lost the whole empire back to Han Chinese, lock, stock and barrel including ancestral Manchurian territority and racial identity.

 

[Alamaking]

Why YingLuck looks uglier now? wtf.....

 

[sleaguepunter]

British and many European monarchies went through that to save their own ruling houses in perpetuality. It's called constitutional monarchy instead of absolute monarchy. It's not undermining power. It's distribution of powers and roles. The Emperor was wise enough to understand that and wanted to implement that with a smooth transition. The Europeans supported the Emperor. He was wise enough but not strong enough to overcome that Empress Dowager despot who in the end turned desperado and lost the whole empire back to Han Chinese, lock, stock and barrel including ancestral Manchurian territority and racial identity.

i dunno about other european monarchies but using the english, king john was forced into signing the manga carta due the barons rebellion and ended with king charles I kenna chop head because charles want absolute power. so now all angmo monarchs give up power without a fight and they too lose their live over it.
So there no way for cixi to accept for emperor to be a figurehead. those were the time to win big, must play big. she sway lor to lose everything. i am not saying she a wise ruler but she not exactly an airhead as protray by the folklores.

 

[Forvendet]

i dunno about other european monarchies but using the english, king john was forced into signing the manga carta due the barons rebellion and ended with king charles I kenna chop head because charles want absolute power. so now all angmo monarchs give up power without a fight and they too lose their live over it.
So there no way for cixi to accept for emperor to be a figurehead. those were the time to win big, must play big. she sway lor to lose everything. i am not saying she a wise ruler but she not exactly an airhead as protray by the folklores.

Of course I didn't mean all have or even should be expected to have given up absolute power just like that. It took all kinds of pressure, persuasion and even means of force when necessary. Absolute power is of course too addictive to be given up just like that. As opposed to absolutely powerless and relegated from royalty to commoner, one had to make choice and decision. On hindsight, yes admittedly on hindsight of history, the powers that were in the Machu dynasty made the wrong choice and decision. You're right that she was no dumbhead. But not everyone clever wins all the time. She just made the wrong choice at the wrong time. The Japanese supposedly made the choice correct choice to save their imperial lineage during the Meiji Restoration. But real power ended up in the wrong hands of the military and resulted in tyrannical governing domestically and world war abroad until the war came ashore to Japan and all went down in disgrace.

 

[sleaguepunter]

Of course I didn't mean all have or even should be expected to have given up absolute power just like that. It took all kinds of pressure, persuasion and even means of force when necessary. Absolute power is of course too addictive to be given up just like that. As opposed to absolutely powerless and relegated from royalty to commoner, one had to make choice and decision. On hindsight, yes admittedly on hindsight of history, the powers that were in the Machu dynasty made the wrong choice and decision. You're right that she was no dumbhead. But not everyone clever wins all the time. She just made the wrong choice at the wrong time. The Japanese supposedly made the choice correct choice to save their imperial lineage during the Meiji Restoration. But real power ended up in the wrong hands of the military and resulted in tyrannical governing domestically and world war abroad until the war came ashore to Japan and all went down in disgrace.

it when ppl lose then they have to find a scapegoat.example, li hongzhang was blame by the chinese ppl but was he such a failure? i personally think he was realistic, no point fighting from a losing position. While the treaties he sign on behalf of the qing court were unequal but it not all his fault. This is a man that try to modernize the nation with whatever resources he can lay his hand on. what he did was buying time for the nation to be strong again but as the situation was brewing, it was already too late. chinese also blame the qing/manchu for the backwardness of the nation but would a chinese dynasty be different in that era?

meiji was a militant. as for military took over power, that only happen in the late 30s. japan military start their nonsense way before that. it the colonels in the kwangtung army that were stirring shit. in a way, they must have under the tacit approval of the emperor as they were not punish for the killing of zhang zuoling in 1928 and the creation of manchukuo in 1932.

japan agression toward china didnt start in the 1930s. As early as the late 1800s jap and qing forces clash in the sea of bohai. japan annexation of taiwan in 1895 and if i not mistaken, gaining control of german's china processions after WW1. To blame the military for starting WW2 was just a way to prevent the emperor to be trial as a war criminal.

 

[red amoeba]

it when ppl lose then they have to find a scapegoat.example, li hongzhang was blame by the chinese ppl but was he such a failure? i personally think he was realistic, no point fighting from a losing position. While the treaties he sign on behalf of the qing court were unequal but it not all his fault. This is a man that try to modernize the nation with whatever resources he can lay his hand on. what he did was buying time for the nation to be strong again but as the situation was brewing, it was already too late. chinese also blame the qing/manchu for the backwardness of the nation but would a chinese dynasty be different in that era?

meiji was a militant. as for military took over power, that only happen in the late 30s. japan military start their nonsense way before that. it the colonels in the kwangtung army that were stirring shit. in a way, they must have under the tacit approval of the emperor as they were not punish for the killing of zhang zuoling in 1928 and the creation of manchukuo in 1932.

japan agression toward china didnt start in the 1930s. As early as the late 1800s jap and qing forces clash in the sea of bohai. japan annexation of taiwan in 1895 and if i not mistaken, gaining control of german's china processions after WW1. To blame the military for starting WW2 was just a way to prevent the emperor to be trial as a war criminal.

if we are to look at Japan and her mischief...they all begun when Commadore Perry showed up with his gunboats.

when Japan tried their luck with Russia / China - they have the tacit backing of US of A.

who is actually stirring shit behind the scene?

Who is supplying resources to Japan up till 1939 before Japan repay their kindness by sneaking onto Pearl Harbour.

 

[sleaguepunter]

if we are to look at Japan and her mischief...they all begun when Commadore Perry showed up with his gunboats.

when Japan tried their luck with Russia / China - they have the tacit backing of US of A.

who is actually stirring shit behind the scene?


Who is supplying resources to Japan up till 1939 before Japan repay their kindness by sneaking onto Pearl Harbour.

US was the biggest trading partner then. and US only start embargo in late 1941 not 1939.

 

[sleaguepunter]

Why YingLuck looks uglier now? wtf.....

she look ok in her burberry wellis leh.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/264374/pm-i-m-not-indecisive

 

[Ramseth]

Very good history, both of you, Sleague and Forve. Just to add, early Sino-Japanese wars were all about regional interests and sphere of influence, conducted quite fairly according to warring protocols. Win was win and lose was lose. Then negotiate settlement terms and conditions about reparation and territorial concession. No Chinese should complain except accept defeat and bear the cost. Even Li Hongzhang maintained personal friendship with many Japanese diplomats and generals. Not to say he was a traitor to China, neither were his Japanese friends traitors to Japan. War was war and personal friendship was personal friendship. Even Sun Yatsen was harbored in Japan when he was on the run and Qing dynasty scholars trained in Japan.

All out Japanese war against China began with the Tanaka doctrine that the whole China must be conquered at all costs and it was possible. To conquer China, first Manchuria must be conquered. That precipitated the assassination of half the Japanese cabinet ministers who objected it as an impossibility and the declaration of Manchukuo independent from China but subordinate to Japan. The Chinese (KMT) war objective then became must kick Japan out of Manchuria and Korea at all costs whilst confidently believing that China may lose a few cities now and there, here or there, but it's not possible for Japan to conquer the whole of China anyway. The ensuing madness and barbaric cruelty by the Japanese was because they tried too hard to make something impossible possible.

The other side of Chinese (CCP) complicated the equation. They capalitized the fight between KMT and Japan very well with proganda strategies. The Long March wasn't a march. It was a retreat and avoidance of battle. Then blame everything that Chinese commoners suffered on KMT and Japan. By the time Japan surrendered, KMT troops were half dead or half dead tired. CCP then lured KMT into starting the civil war, still spearheaded by propaganda that KMT was unfit to govern the country.

 

[Froggy]

Why YingLuck looks uglier now? wtf.....

Ya this thread talking about her but all these siao langs discussing history not even Thai for goodness sake. Really siao lang.

 

[Ramseth]

Ya this thread talking about her but all these siao langs discussing history not even Thai for goodness sake. Really siao lang.

It's important and relevant history. It caused another mass exodus of southern Chinese to migrate to Burma and Thailand. That's what cause many of them in later generations like Yingluck to be fairer than their average norms. Purebred Burmese as Thais are as dark as Malays, though not Indian or African standards.

 

[red amoeba]

US was the biggest trading partner then. and US only start embargo in late 1941 not 1939.

Japan's 1937 attack on China was condemned by the U.S. and several members of the League of Nations including Britain, France, Australia, and the Netherlands. These states had economic and territorial interests, or formal colonies, in East and Southeast Asia; they were increasingly alarmed at Japan's new military power and its willingness to use it, which threatened their control in Asia. In July 1939, the U.S. terminated its 1911 commercial treaty with Japan. But these efforts failed to deter Japan from continuing its war in China, or from signing the Tripartite Pact in 1940 with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, officially forming the Axis Powers.

 

[Froggy]

It's important and relevant history. It caused another mass exodus of southern Chinese to migrate to Burma and Thailand. That's what cause many of them in later generations like Yingluck to be fairer than their average norms. Purebred Burmese as Thais are as dark as Malays, though not Indian or African standards.

Hey you realized in Thailand many sellers of roti (prata) look like indians or Indian decents from Burma. Also many news paper delivery people are Indians. Seems like they like this trade everywhere in the world.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

It's important and relevant history. It caused another mass exodus of southern Chinese to migrate to Burma and Thailand. That's what cause many of them in later generations like Yingluck to be fairer than their average norms. Purebred Burmese as Thais are as dark as Malays, though not Indian or African standards.

Not all the ppl that migrated to sea from south china were chinese. Many of them were minority groups living in southern china today. For example one of the main ancestors of the thai ppl today are the dai. They still reside in china and many of their festivals are similar to the thai ppls of today.

Many minority groups in china and the various regional countries look like chinese/japanese but have a different language. Like the hmong for eg. They don't have their own country but live as minorities in various countries.

 

[sleaguepunter]

commerical treaty does not mean no trade between japan and US in 1939. mostly likely the treaty was like the MFN of today.

USA only stop the supply of machine tool, aviation fuel, airplane and parts in 1940 and the real trigger was when US cease oil shipment in july 1941. With only a oil reserve of 5-6months, japan have to capture the next nearest oil supplies aka the dutch east indies in the region.

actually S.E.A could have avoid the war had Zhukov was not posted to the far east command. zhukov whipped the kwangtung army ass in 1938 and zhukov rose to prominent after that later transfer back for the defense of moscow. Had the japanese done well in their siberian campagin, they would not have turn south. It is much easy to ship resources across the sea of japan than having a long shipping route from S.E.A to japan.

 

[Fook Seng]

if we are to look at Japan and her mischief...they all begun when Commadore Perry showed up with his gunboats.

when Japan tried their luck with Russia / China - they have the tacit backing of US of A.

who is actually stirring shit behind the scene?

Who is supplying resources to Japan up till 1939 before Japan repay their kindness by sneaking onto Pearl Harbour.

In fact, US had such a Cold War fix right after the War that whatever foreign policy they adopted was to deal with a Cold War Russian. So Mao Ze Tong's Marxist leaning automatically but Mao as an enemy of the US even though China had no special affiliation with Russia which was their historical enemy because of the common border. This red-blue political alignment carried from how they supported Chang Kai Sek in the struggle for China, to the Korean War to today's border clashes of all other countries with China. As long as China was considered to be on the other side of the bamboo curtain, they had to be dealt with until that period when China felt Russia under Khrushchev had gone too far acting as big brother which predated the Ping Pong diplomacy. This souring of Sino-Soviet relationship, called the Sino-Soviet Split, came to a head in the construction of the Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge when the Russians who was originally given the task of designing the bridge, stopped work, took away the blueprints and left. The PRC Govt had to scour around the world for experts among Chinese diaspora to complete the bridge. It could be at this time that China felt the need to quicken the pace of technological development.

 

[Ramseth]

Not all the ppl that migrated to sea from south china were chinese. Many of them were minority groups living in southern china today. For example one of the main ancestors of the thai ppl today are the dai. They still reside in china and many of their festivals are similar to the thai ppls of today.

Many minority groups in china and the various regional countries look like chinese/japanese but have a different language. Like the hmong for eg. They don't have their own country but live as minorities in various countries.

Your definition of Chinese is different from mine. You're thinking in terms of Han Chinese. I'm thinking in terms of all those who had roots in China for millennia. PRC recognizes five major Chinese races, Han, Manchu, Mongul, Hui and Tibetan on top many minor Chinese races like Miao, Zhuang, Shan, Tai etc. All are Chinese.

 

[red amoeba]

commerical treaty does not mean no trade between japan and US in 1939. mostly likely the treaty was like the MFN of today.

USA only stop the supply of machine tool, aviation fuel, airplane and parts in 1940 and the real trigger was when US cease oil shipment in july 1941. With only a oil reserve of 5-6months, japan have to capture the next nearest oil supplies aka the dutch east indies in the region.

actually S.E.A could have avoid the war had Zhukov was not posted to the far east command. zhukov whipped the kwangtung army ass in 1938 and zhukov rose to prominent after that later transfer back for the defense of moscow. Had the japanese done well in their siberian campagin, they would not have turn south. It is much easy to ship resources across the sea of japan than having a long shipping route from S.E.A to japan.

technically it meant stop supplying of military resources in 1939...whereas oil - can be for both civilian & military use.

like right now, for economic sanctions xcept for humanitarian purposes.

 

[Ramseth]

Sleague is right on this. US embargoed all oil shipping to Japan, whether civil or military. That was even before the Pearl Harbor raid. In fact, many would say that caused the Pearl Harbor raid. That also caused Japanese determination take over South China Sea for shipping lanes and Indonesia for oil supply.