SIngapore - We Won't Be Held Hostage By Malaysia And Indonesia

[zhihau]

How can Spore survive without LKY

that, my bro, leads to a situation of the Schrodinger's cat

 

[zhihau]

Time for a bit of patriotism...

me knew it! boss, me knew it! Sinkapoor still has a special place in your heart :p:p:p

 

[ray_of_hope]

Who could have foreseen the exchange of the KTM station at TP and other KTM land in exchange for prime land in Marina South? Seems like secret negotiations go on all the time. Are there negotiations for re-merger? If what observers elsewhere say is true, that economically S'pore is maxed out, then I would not be too surprised if re-merger is being considered.

 

[johnny333]

Who could have foreseen the exchange of the KTM station at TP and other KTM land in exchange for prime land in Marina South? Seems like secret negotiations go on all the time. Are there negotiations for re-merger? If what observers elsewhere say is true, that economically S'pore is maxed out, then I would not be too surprised if re-merger is being considered.

I don't see it happening until LKY ups the lorry . Probably not even during LHL's time. I think the biggest impediment is $$$. One of the things the PAP would have to give up is their ridiculous world class salaries. Plus all those extras such as directorships, ....

The Malaysian politicians would lose face if their Sporean counterparts made more than they did

 

[jubilee1919]

Countries will act because of Self interest.

SE Asia is important to US, Aust, Japan, NZ, ....
They will act to protect their self interests & not out of the goodness of their heart.

So you agree that treaties are for the individuals' self-interest. Which country would sign defence agreements with each other without some form of pay back? You said US, Oz, Japan, NZ will act to protect their self interests and not out of the goodness of their hearts. Singapore does not act out of self interest? We spend on defence to protect our self interest too.

Please count Japan and NZ out. They have enough on their plates to even think of defending their interest in S.E.Asia as LeongSam already pointed out about NZ. It is because of their own self interests that we should not rely 100% n our defence partners that they will be around in our time of need as they might be engaged elsewhere which has a higher priority for them than Singapore.

Spore is a buffer between Malaysia & Indonesia.
Nether side can be certain what the other will do if the other party invades Spore. So this uncertainty will keep them from doing anything rash.

If one side does invade, the other side will counter the move. Such a counter may eve mean that one side may aid in Spore's defence.

The key word here is MAY. If you rely on this as a surety that is being naive. I do not share your unshaken faith and trust in our neighbours. They killed and raped their own Chinese citizens even. You also believe there will be no change in leadership of our neighbours in the next 20 years, a change that can be good or bad? That there is a possibility a radical might replace the current leadership? That this radical has expansionist ambitions?

Maids are not the only Indonesians in Spore . There are plenty of wealthy Indonesians in Spore. Haven't you ever wondered who are buying the properties, condos, attending our schools/international schools?

There is plenty of Indonesian money in Spore. Some of it is dirty money that belongs to the elites of indonesia.
Spore also serves as a centre for money laundrying, medical hub, casino hub, etc So it's in the interests of the Indonesian elite to maintain the status quo of Spore

Don't forget about the other nationals in Spore e.g. PRC There is the threat of China getting involved in any dispute.

It may be in their interests for now, which lead us back to my early reply aout change in leadership in future. In other words, none of these countries will attack for the reasons you gave? Ok, that is your opinion, not mine.


Those were territorial disputes.
Has Indonesia or Malaysia made any claims to Spore?

There is this fable about a sheep drinking water from a stream. The wolf wanted to kill and eat the sheep and make all sorts of excuses as a reason for doing so. There is no need for dispute, you just need to concoct one.


Lots of reasons Territorial disputes, fighting over resources, proxy wars
In the case of Spore we are too small to get involved. If Malaysia wants to re-claim Spore, they are welcome. It will mean that Sporeans can buy cheaper Malaysian property.

I remember LKY saying that Spore cannot survive on it's own. Maybe it's time for Spore to re-join Malaysia

If you believe size is the reason Singapore will not have any dispute, I believe it is the main reason why we will always have disputes. It is a dog eat dog world and no country is going to be your big brother to help you when you are in trouble.

There are threads on the subject about re-merger so I won't want to start something that has already been thrashed.

 

[Froggy]

Come to think of it Singapore had been held hostage by the PAP regime, our CPF has been the main victim. What we talking about Indonesia and Malaysia?

 

[ray_of_hope]

I don't see it happening until LKY ups the lorry . Probably not even during LHL's time. I think the biggest impediment is $$$. One of the things the PAP would have to give up is their ridiculous world class salaries. Plus all those extras such as directorships, ....

The Malaysian politicians would lose face if their Sporean counterparts made more than they did

There are various forms that re-merger could take. The HK example of one-country two systems is one possibility. A lot of things were said could not take place while LKY was still alive, including not allowing CPF members to use their savings for investments, and not allowing casinos.

Nothing is cast in stone.

 

[jubilee1919]

Come to think of it Singapore had been held hostage by the PAP regime, our CPF has been the main victim. What we talking about Indonesia and Malaysia?

Long story but it is all in this thread about Singapore's reliance on resources from our neighbours. Our move to be independent of getting water and LNG from our neighbours is the subject, not the defence of Singapore.

 

[johnny333]

If you believe size is the reason Singapore will not have any dispute, I believe it is the main reason why we will always have disputes. It is a dog eat dog world and no country is going to be your big brother to help you when you are in trouble.

There are threads on the subject about re-merger so I won't want to start something that has already been thrashed.

I'm just taking the perspective of an innocent bystander who has very little to lose if Spore falls. If Malaysia decides to invade tomorrow how many Sporeans would actually suffer

As you say it's a dog eat dog world, even in today's Spore where necessities like medical care is becoming prohibitive. That's why you see so many Sporeans struggling, living & shopping in JB. If there is a war it is the PAP & their friends that stand to lose the most.

I have done my own cost benefit analysis & it's just too costly defending things that don't belong to me. I'm just being pragmatic, I've learn't many hard truths from the PAP :p

 

[johnny333]

Come to think of it Singapore had been held hostage by the PAP regime, our CPF has been the main victim. What we talking about Indonesia and Malaysia?

We have all seen this before. it's the FEAR factor. Similar to the scary stories about JB filled with muggers & car hijackers to deter people from going to JB

 

[johnny333]

There are various forms that re-merger could take. The HK example of one-country two systems is one possibility. A lot of things were said could not take place while LKY was still alive, including not allowing CPF members to use their savings for investments, and not allowing casinos.

Nothing is cast in stone.

You may be right because of all the talk of economic tie ups that is going on. If there is a re-merger the politicians have to see the economic benefits of such a change.

 

[johnny333]

Sinkapore is indefensible. The money spent on SAF is wasteful spending. Paying the US for protection would be cheaper and spare tens of thousand men from hardship.

While I was doing NS I heard that Spore has enough ammunition to fight for 3 days. I doubt that this has changed much with the limitation of land.

 

[ray_of_hope]

You may be right because of all the talk of economic tie ups that is going on. If there is a re-merger the politicians have to see the economic benefits of such a change.

Indeed, this would be done for purely mutual economic benefit and nothing more. The PAP has long range vision. Consider this: in 2005 the govt chose to give a lucrative gaming licence to a M'sian company despite the fact that it was known in many circles not to provide the most glamorous and flashy gaming experience. The way Chinese M'sians, including sex-blogger Alvin, are feted in S'pore, feeds into the narrative that all these people should be kept on-side so that the right signals are sent out to others across the Causeway if the day ever comes that both countries get closer to each other.

The only possible fly in the ointment is if for some reason Najib exits the political scene or the Barisan Nasional is defeated at the next GE.

 

[Liquigas]

There are various forms that re-merger could take. The HK example of one-country two systems is one possibility. A lot of things were said could not take place while LKY was still alive, including not allowing CPF members to use their savings for investments, and not allowing casinos. Nothing is cast in stone.

THe colonial government in HK used up as much as possible of what is left in their coffers by building a new airport and spent on other big projects just before the 1997 handover because they do not want to pass on so much cash to the mainland Chinese. It will be interesting to watch what is going to happen to our Temasek and GIC should there be a remerger with Malaysia ...

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

This is too simplistic. Treaties mean bullshit when a country suddenly has a vested interest in being hostile to Singapore. Note that I'm not even talking about an invasion, just an interest in posturing and being aggressive.

Your understanding of politics is totally off. Our racial composition is irrelevant. Our geographical position is everything. It is the reason why we are deemed as a threat, and will forever be deemed so. It is the reason why M'sia and indo will forever be trying ways to use us against each other.

You get caught in the middle without a strong defence force and you see how fast you go downhill.

It is a very valid question because the PAP is spending billions & billions, more than any of our poor 3rd world neighbours.

If you say that they are they are a threat just because Spore is undefended, you are not considering the realities in this region. Spore has many treaties e.g. ASEAN, SEATO, ....

Spore is a buffer between Malaysia & Indonesia. If any of these countries were to invade Spore, what do you think the other country will do

Another valid question is why would anyone want to bother invading Spore There's no oil, no hinterland, no water, zip, nada. It's just an overcrowded island with millions of foreigners from places like Indonesia & Malaysia. Since they are already in Spore, why would they want to invade Spore

The majority in Spore is chinese whereas our neighbours are muslim. Do you really think they want to absorb more troublesome chinese into their population

 

[jubilee1919]

I'm just taking the perspective of an innocent bystander who has very little to lose if Spore falls. If Malaysia decides to invade tomorrow how many Sporeans would actually suffer

As you say it's a dog eat dog world, even in today's Spore where necessities like medical care is becoming prohibitive. That's why you see so many Sporeans struggling, living & shopping in JB. If there is a war it is the PAP & their friends that stand to lose the most.

I have done my own cost benefit analysis & it's just too costly defending things that don't belong to me. I'm just being pragmatic, I've learn't many hard truths from the PAP :p

Sometimes I do wonder at those questions you put up. "If Malaysia decides to invade tomorrow how many Sporeans would actually suffer"

What answer do you expect to get?

And the rest of your statements are all about you and no one else and you expect everyone here to agree with you? If all of us has the same selfish agenda, what makes you think there can ever be a common ground for proper discussion?

You have to arrive at a conclusion whether this country is worth living in or otherwise. You have weighed the pros and cons and I don't doubt you will up and leave when there are more cons than pros. I too will weigh my options and will make my decision when it comes to a push and shove. If living in another country is better, you can bet your life I will leave. Whinging and beating your chest and complaining sure makes us feel better but the negativity of it all and listening to more of the same from others just add to your own misery. Wouldn't it be better to think more positively because all you do is make yourself even more miserable and affect others you come into contact with?

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

I don't think you'd be talking like this if you suddenly saw a flat 800m in front of you crumble because of a missile strike.

I'm just taking the perspective of an innocent bystander who has very little to lose if Spore falls. If Malaysia decides to invade tomorrow how many Sporeans would actually suffer

As you say it's a dog eat dog world, even in today's Spore where necessities like medical care is becoming prohibitive. That's why you see so many Sporeans struggling, living & shopping in JB. If there is a war it is the PAP & their friends that stand to lose the most.

I have done my own cost benefit analysis & it's just too costly defending things that don't belong to me. I'm just being pragmatic, I've learn't many hard truths from the PAP :p

 

[ray_of_hope]

THe colonial government in HK used up as much as possible of what is left in their coffers by building a new airport and spent on other big projects just before the 1997 handover because they do not want to pass on so much cash to the mainland Chinese. It will be interesting to watch what is going to happen to our Temasek and GIC should there be a remerger with Malaysia ...

Chek Lap Kok was required because of the projected vast increase in air traffic which Kai Tak could not support. The Beijing side grumbled about the new airport largely as a negotiating tactic and because it felt it should have been consulted before a decision was taken to build it. The only point about CLK is that virtually all the building projects there went to British companies. That is not a big deal. The UK left HK with virtually the highest level of foreign exchange reserves at the time of its departure. (HK's FOREX reserves were ranked 4th in the world in Sep 1997: http://www.hkma.gov.hk/eng/key-information/press-releases/1997/970919.shtml) It had an interest to do so, i.e., because it wanted the Chinese government to keep to the agreement to ensure HK's economic, social and legal situation remained the same for 50 years after 1997. The UK actually had a stronger hand in negotiations -- HK island, the most prestigious part of HK had been ceded in perpetuity to the British. It was only the New Territories that were on a 99 year lease. However, the British decided to let HK island go at the same time as the lease ended on the New Territories.

The narrative in Spore is that the Malaysians are stupid and much else. Few here however know that Petronas is one of the most profitable companies worldwide in any field. It provides around 40% of Malaysian govt revenues. Spore can keep GIC and Temasek. Petronas has over the past 2 decades bought up vast tracts of oil reserves around the globe. While it and Malaysia is on the move, the S'porean mindset appears to be unchanging.

 

[johnny333]

This is too simplistic. Treaties mean bullshit when a country suddenly has a vested interest in being hostile to Singapore. Note that I'm not even talking about an invasion, just an interest in posturing and being aggressive.

Your understanding of politics is totally off. Our racial composition is irrelevant. Our geographical position is everything. It is the reason why we are deemed as a threat, and will forever be deemed so. It is the reason why M'sia and indo will forever be trying ways to use us against each other.

You get caught in the middle without a strong defence force and you see how fast you go downhill.

No, I'm just being realistic. Sporeans are just digits, we only matter as working units. In any conflict it is the poor that will always suffer. The elites will the ones somewhere safe in the rear or overseas.

If we ever get taken over, Spore will just be under new management instead of the PAP
Isn't this what LKY did under the Japanese

 

[johnny333]

Sometimes I do wonder at those questions you put up. "If Malaysia decides to invade tomorrow how many Sporeans would actually suffer"

What answer do you expect to get?

And the rest of your statements are all about you and no one else and you expect everyone here to agree with you? If all of us has the same selfish agenda, what makes you think there can ever be a common ground for proper discussion?

You have to arrive at a conclusion whether this country is worth living in or otherwise. You have weighed the pros and cons and I don't doubt you will up and leave when there are more cons than pros. I too will weigh my options and will make my decision when it comes to a push and shove. If living in another country is better, you can bet your life I will leave. Whinging and beating your chest and complaining sure makes us feel better but the negativity of it all and listening to more of the same from others just add to your own misery. Wouldn't it be better to think more positively because all you do is make yourself even more miserable and affect others you come into contact with?

We are all adults here & we all have our own plans. I doubt that my perspective is unique. It's funny that you chose the word "selfish". That word has a negative connotation. I would use it to describe the PAP's policies. While I would call my ideas self preservation

You may think I sound miserable but I'm just stating the facts as I see them. I'm being honest & when I talk to my kakis, many share my thoughts