Singapore 8th most indebted nation on the face on this earth!

[Char_Azn]

Dude. Read my post and your own quote. At the end of the day, the only component that was unknown is the value of the immovable asset. He knows the amount of liquid assets, MAS + Temasek + GIC, he just never had the value of the immovable assets. They came to a compromise and Ong said instead of giving him the cost of all the immovable assets, he asked for a list.

And your source is inaccurate, OTC's reign was till 31 Aug 1999. U might want to use another source

"Soon after his election to the presidency in 1993, Ong Teng Chong felt it was his duty to know the value of Singapore's financial reserves. The Singapore government resisted saying it would take 56 man-years to produce a dollar-and-cents value of Singapore’s immovable assets (real property) alone. Ong never found out the value of Singapore’s reserves. He completed his term as president in 1998 and died in 2002."

He knew how much money were in the reserves, he knew how much assets GIC and Temasek Holdings had. He only contested on the final component of the reserves, value of immovable assets, basically state land and buildings own by the civil service. GCT argue that it will take forever to valuate the those stuff so they came to a compromise, they gave him a list of land and buildings instead of having them valuated. He even wrote down a set of regulations on how the reserves should be guarded hence no need for Nathan to do any real work

Source from Wikipedia

However, soon after his election to the presidency in 1993, Ong was tangled in a dispute over the access of information regarding Singapore's financial reserves. The government said it would take 56 man-years to produce a dollar-and-cents value of the immovable assets. Ong discussed this with the accountant general and the auditor general and eventually conceded that the government only had to declare all of its properties, a list which took a few months to produce. Even then, the list was not complete; it took the government a total of three years to produce the information that Ong requested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ong_Teng_Cheong

 

[japarmy]

Thanks for catching the typo - 1999 is correct. Ong never knew. I have that from a good source - the guy who did the estimate for the real property. Worked with him in SG.

Dude. Read my post and your own quote. At the end of the day, the only component that was unknown is the value of the immovable asset. He knows the amount of liquid assets, MAS + Temasek + GIC, he just never had the value of the immovable assets. They came to a compromise and Ong said instead of giving him the cost of all the immovable assets, he asked for a list.

And your source is inaccurate, OTC's reign was till 31 Aug 1999. U might want to use another source







Source from Wikipedia


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ong_Teng_Cheong

 

[†††††]

[SHOCKS] Singapore has a debt of US$254 billion

Tony Tan has been elected as Singapore’s next president. He won by the narrowest of margins, with 744,397 votes—only 7,000 some votes ahead of runner-up Tan Cheng Bock, who garnered 737,128 votes.

This was out of a total of 2,153,040 votes, which means that Tony Tan won only 35% of the votes cast. This is significant as it means that 65% of Singapore’s voters were against Singapore’s entrenched People’s Action Party (PAP)—the party of Lee Kuan Yew.

Interestingly, 37,826 ballots were rejected by the Singapore authorities. What Singapore needs are U.N. inspectors who could have made sure that the ballots were rejected properly.

Tony Tan, who lost billions as head of Singapore’s General Investment Corporation (GIC), and who has been plagued by scandals, will now be the country’s president. GIC is one of the guardians of Singapore’s national reserves, its sovereign wealth.

Maybe only a handful of people know the size of Singapore’s reserves. The amount was and is a closely guarded secret, known only to certain family members of Singapore’s de-facto ruler, Lee Kuan Yew.

Soon after his election to the presidency in 1993, Ong Teng Chong felt it was his duty to know the value of Singapore’s financial reserves.

The Singapore government resisted Ong, saying it would take 56 man-years to produce a dollar-and-cents value of Singapore’s immovable assets (real property) alone. Ong never found out the value of Singapore’s reserves. He completed his term as president in 1999 and died in 2002.

Now we learn from the August 15, 2011 issue of Fortune Magazine that Singapore has no sovereign wealth.

Instead it has a sovereign debt of US$254 billion, which is 95% of Singapore’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP). This puts Singapore at 8th position as one of the world’s most indebted nations. Singapore is near the bottom of the pile; only seven developed countries are more in debt, in terms of GDP.

By this standard, France, Portugal, and nearly every developed country in the world is doing better than Singapore in terms of debt.

Apparently, Singapore has borrowed heavily from its own Central Provident Fund (CPF) which holds the retirement funds of Singaporeans. This explains why Singapore is not only raising the retirement age, but making it more difficult for Singaporeans to get their retirement funds even when they reach that age.

Like many Americans, it appears that few Singaporeans will ever be able to afford to retire.

The United States borrowed to pay for its continuing wars. That we know. Where, however, did all Singapore’s borrowed money go?
The Singapore government has always had a surplus of tax revenues over expenditures. It has virtually no social entitlements. You become poor in Singapore and all you may have is a cardboard box on the void deck, as the Singapore government will not be there to help you.

Only a few people control Singapore’s national reserves, in secrecy, and only they are in a position to use those reserves as they wish.

Maybe Carlos Slim of Mexico is no longer the world’s richest man.

Is Singapore’s Lee Kuan Yew the world’s richest man?

http://johnharding.com/2011/08/28/is-singapores-lee-kuan-yew-the-worlds-richest-man/

 

[Cestbon]

Re: [SHOCKS] Singapore has a debt of US$254 billion

Not surprise. 90% debt are CPF money that gov control. If all migrate empty the CPF then Sg gov will go bankrupt.

 

[omnia1]

Singapore's massive debt is missing money. Where did all the borrowed money go? So far as I know, the Singapore government has always had a surplus of tax revenues over expenditures. It has to be that the Lee family has the money stashed in foreign bank accounts. ...

...When they find out the true state of the reserves, these same people will be the very same "citizens" who'll want hang the PAP.
LKY knows this, that's why he'll stone wall the opposition as long as he's alive.

...The US uses the money it gets from selling bonds to wage war. What does Singapore do with the money it receives from selling bonds to CPF? Singapore has no wars. Everything seems profitable. So, where did the money go. We can only guess that it probably goes to the same people who control Singapore's national reserves. If Ong Teng Chong could not find out, who can?

Where did all the borrowed money go ? What is the true state of the reserves ? Where did the money go ?

Do you realise that you have been deceived by this article written by this person calling himself John Harding ? Do you know how much reserves Singapore actually has ? Based on publicly available information (it's not true that we know nothing about our reserves), Singapore's reserves are held by three entities:

1. MAS holds foreign exchange reserves (primarily securities, forex deposits and gold) that amounted to US$242 billion as at June 2011.
2. Reserves invested by Temasek Holdings was valued at S$193 billion (or about US$161 billion) as at March 2011 as audited by KPMG.
3. Only the reserves invested by GIC is not publicly disclosed. Many estimate GIC's holdings to be well above US$100 billion.​

Adding all of the above (and assuming a conservative US$100b for GIC), we see that Singapore's reserves are at least US$503 billion, way in excess of the national debt of US$254 billion (which includes what the Singapore govt owes in CPF monies which is only about S$198 billion as at June 2011, out of the US$254 billion) !

Does this look like a country that "has no sovereign wealth" as claimed by John Harding ? He sensationalised Singapore's national debt whilst conveniently ignoring the assets held by the Singapore government. I can only conclude that this John Harding fellow (assuming that is his real name) is either an incompetent fool or a deceitful twit out to spread misinformation.

 

[johnny333]

Where did all the borrowed money go ? What is the true state of the reserves ? Where did the money go ?

That is what everyone wants to know

LKY & Co are behaving like crooks trying to hide something
I've already written of MY CPF & accepted that it's probably gone. When the angry crowds scream for blood, I bet you'll be among them. Maybe heading the mob

 

[omnia1]

That is what everyone wants to know

LKY & Co are behaving like crooks trying to hide something
I've already written of MY CPF & accepted that it's probably gone. When the angry crowds scream for blood, I bet you'll be among them. Maybe heading the mob

Didn't I already explain in fair amount of detail Singapore's reserves and where our CPF money is ? Did you not read the rest of my post ??

If you did, do you or do you not agree with what I had written ?

If you do agree, why are you still lamenting about your CPF ?
If you do not agree with what I have written about Singapore's reserves, which part do you not agree with and why ?

Or maybe you did not understand at all what was written ?

 

[Papsmearer]

Where did all the borrowed money go ? What is the true state of the reserves ? Where did the money go ?

Do you realise that you have been deceived by this article written by this person calling himself John Harding ? Do you know how much reserves Singapore actually has ? Based on publicly available information (it's not true that we know nothing about our reserves), Singapore's reserves are held by three entities:

1. MAS holds foreign exchange reserves (primarily securities, forex deposits and gold) that amounted to US$242 billion as at June 2011.
2. Reserves invested by Temasek Holdings was valued at S$193 billion (or about US$161 billion) as at March 2011 as audited by KPMG.
3. Only the reserves invested by GIC is not publicly disclosed. Many estimate GIC's holdings to be well above US$100 billion.​

Adding all of the above (and assuming a conservative US$100b for GIC), we see that Singapore's reserves are at least US$503 billion, way in excess of the national debt of US$254 billion (which includes what the Singapore govt owes in CPF monies which is only about S$198 billion as at June 2011, out of the US$254 billion) !

Does this look like a country that "has no sovereign wealth" as claimed by John Harding ? He sensationalised Singapore's national debt whilst conveniently ignoring the assets held by the Singapore government. I can only conclude that this John Harding fellow (assuming that is his real name) is either an incompetent fool or a deceitful twit out to spread misinformation.

U are the one that is being deceived here. Let me explain how. The national debt mentioned in the article is debt issued by a sovereign state. Therefore, as a soveriegn state, Singapore has issued debt of USD$254 billion according to this article. That means it has sold bonds, treasury instruments, etc. to institutional and private buyers to the tune of $$254 billion. What the article does not include in its calculation is the debt issued by quasi govt. agencies or GLCs. For example, the US has no equivalent of soveriegn wealth funds like Temasek. But you must know that Temasek has issued its own bonds ($10 billion at least, is my recollection). Since Temasek is a Pte Ltd company, and issued bonds as a PLC, these numbers were not included in the article. Singapore is unique because the govt. has its hands in so many monopolies and money making enterprises run by its GLCs and Stat boards. All of them borrow money (eg. HDB), and all of them incur debts, and many are 100% owned by the govt., while others like SIA are majority owned. Under GAAP, these debts should show up in the govt's. consolidated financial statements, but they don't. If you add all these debts up, you will find that it far exceeds the USD$254 billion, and probably approaches your hypothetical national reserve figure.

By the way, CPF money is not a debt obligation per se. CPF money is actually set up as a trust account. ie the govt. (thru CPF) holds it in trust for you until the retirement of the account holder. It becomes a debt obligation owing by the govt. only when it borrows the money from CPF by selling it govt, bonds. CPF (if it was truly independent) is under no obligation to buy the govt, bonds. However, the govt. has been for the last 15 years now removing this debt obligation to CPF. It is swapping the debt for flat equity. By raising the flat prices and allowing and even encouraging idiots to buy it with their CPF money, it has in effect reduced its future obligations thru CPF. In theory, there will come a day when they really do not need to dip into borrowings from the CPF. But they will still do it.

The question is still valid as to where has the money gone. If u follow the money, it make no sense at all.

 

[johnny333]

Didn't I already explain in fair amount of detail Singapore's reserves and where our CPF money is ? Did you not read the rest of my post ??

When Madoff was caught it came out that there were many who suspected that his investments was a ponzi. The same is true with Spore's CPF, there's many who think it's bankrupt.


You can of course chose to trust the PAP, but don't be surprised when only your decendants get to see your CPF

 

[omnia1]

U are the one that is being deceived here. Let me explain how. The national debt mentioned in the article is debt issued by a sovereign state. Therefore, as a soveriegn state, Singapore has issued debt of USD$254 billion according to this article. That means it has sold bonds, treasury instruments, etc. to institutional and private buyers to the tune of $$254 billion. What the article does not include in its calculation is the debt issued by quasi govt. agencies or GLCs. For example, the US has no equivalent of soveriegn wealth funds like Temasek. But you must know that Temasek has issued its own bonds ($10 billion at least, is my recollection). Since Temasek is a Pte Ltd company, and issued bonds as a PLC, these numbers were not included in the article. Singapore is unique because the govt. has its hands in so many monopolies and money making enterprises run by its GLCs and Stat boards. All of them borrow money (eg. HDB), and all of them incur debts, and many are 100% owned by the govt., while others like SIA are majority owned. Under GAAP, these debts should show up in the govt's. consolidated financial statements, but they don't. If you add all these debts up, you will find that it far exceeds the USD$254 billion, and probably approaches your hypothetical national reserve figure.

By the way, CPF money is not a debt obligation per se. CPF money is actually set up as a trust account. ie the govt. (thru CPF) holds it in trust for you until the retirement of the account holder. It becomes a debt obligation owing by the govt. only when it borrows the money from CPF by selling it govt, bonds. CPF (if it was truly independent) is under no obligation to buy the govt, bonds. However, the govt. has been for the last 15 years now removing this debt obligation to CPF. It is swapping the debt for flat equity. By raising the flat prices and allowing and even encouraging idiots to buy it with their CPF money, it has in effect reduced its future obligations thru CPF. In theory, there will come a day when they really do not need to dip into borrowings from the CPF. But they will still do it.

The question is still valid as to where has the money gone. If u follow the money, it make no sense at all.

1. The US$254 billion includes what the government owes to the CPF Board and by extension, to us (by virtue of CPF monies being invested in special government securities issued for this purpose). In fact, the special government securities issued for CPF monies takes up a large chunk of this US$254 billion as clarified by MOF.

2. You are right that Termasek has issued bonds. In its latest financial statements, it reported outstanding bonds of about S$10 billion. But again, this S$10 billion debt is small compared to Temasek's assets. Temasek reported shareholder's equity of S$155 billion as at 31 March 2011 which by definition, would be net of all liabilities (debt).

3. You are right that many enterprises owned wholly or in part by the government incur debt in their ordinary course of business. But unless you are saying that they are insolvent, their assets would exceed their debt, giving each of them a net positive shareholder's equity. The 'debts' of these companies would already be fully netted off by their corresponding assets; these companies would not add any additional debt on a net basis to the US$254 billion national debt of the government.

To put it in plainer terms, it doesn't matter if the liabilities (debt) of SIA+DBS+NOL+Keppel+SingTel etc come up to say S$100 billion when their combined assets add up to say S$150 billion. We know that the assets of each of these companies would exceed their individual liabilities, otherwise they would be insolvent; and none of them are.
​

If we want to be really conservative, let's use a ridiculous scenario where we take a haircut and reduce Temasek's shareholder's equity by 50% and totally write off GIC's investments and equity. Even under such a ridiculous scenario, Singapore's reserves (MAS+Temasek50%) would still exceed its national debt (part of which would be your CPF monies) .

So it is simply ludicrous for the article (or anybody) to claim that "Singapore has no sovereign wealth" or to insinuate that the government does not have the means to fully back our CPF monies (ie: having the assets/reserves to cover the national debt).

 

[omnia1]

When Madoff was caught it came out that there were many who suspected that his investments was a ponzi. The same is true with Spore's CPF, there's many who think it's bankrupt. You can of course chose to trust the PAP, but don't be surprised when only your decendants get to see your CPF

And I assume you agree with them. So I ask again, on what basis do you think that CPF is bankrupt ? Do you not agree with what I have written about Singapore's reserves viz-a-viz its national debt ? What is it that you do not agree with and why ?

In fact, if CPF was indeed bankrupt, even my descendents won't get to see my CPF . Which is why I suspect you are mixing up two issues here. One is whether the government has the means to back up its CPF obligations (which it does, see my previous posts); the other is whether we agree with the government's CPF withdrawal policies (for which there is certainly room for debate).

 

[johnny333]

And I assume you agree with them. So I ask again, on what basis do you think that CPF is bankrupt ?

If you've lived long enough in Spore one begins to develop some skepticism about the motives of the PAP

You can of course believe all the propaganda out there but on the day you find out the "hard" truth don't say you weren't warned

 

[omnia1]

If you've lived long enough in Spore one begins to develop some skepticism about the motives of the PAP

You can of course believe all the propaganda out there but on the day you find out the "hard" truth don't say you weren't warned

There is nothing wrong being sceptical. We should indeed question things presented to us. But this has to be balanced against data and information that we have which would allow us to come to an informed and educated conclusion.

If we refuse to consider opposing information just because they do not conform to what we want to believe, we will end up blinkered and severely limited by our own prejudices.

 

[johnny333]

If we refuse to consider opposing information just because they do not conform to what we want to believe, we will end up blinkered and severely limited by our own prejudices.

That's right I'm glad you agree with me

If people insist on believing the PAP, hook, line & sinker without questioning their massage facts. Expect them to be shocked & disappointed when the truth comes out

 

[omnia1]

That's right I'm glad you agree with me

If people insist on believing the PAP, hook, line & sinker without questioning their massage facts. Expect them to be shocked & disappointed when the truth comes out

Agreed. But the difference is that I take the trouble to research and analyse data on Singapore's reserves to try to ascertain the truth; and not just believe what some John Harding bloke writes, hook, line and sinker. And the data that I've seen suggests a very different picture to that painted by the article. This is what you should be doing ...

 

[johnny333]

Agreed. But the difference is that I take the trouble to research and analyse data on Singapore's reserves to try to ascertain the truth; and not just believe what some John Harding bloke writes, hook, line and sinker. And the data that I've seen suggests a very different picture to that painted by the article. This is what you should be doing ...

Please lah, we are not talking about John Harding. If you read this thread it's not about John Harding, it's about our reserves

The facts you are referring to are unsubstantiated & it's probably half the truth. Even out president OTC was stonewalled when he asked for the real numbers. If the president of Spore can't even get the true facts, how can you a "lesser mortal" know any better

 

[omnia1]

Please lah, we are not talking about John Harding. If you read this thread it's not about John Harding, it's about our reserves

The facts you are referring to are unsubstantiated & it's probably half the truth. Even out president OTC was stonewalled when he asked for the real numbers. If the president of Spore can't even get the true facts, how can you a "lesser mortal" know any better

The official reserves held by MAS are given on their website as well as on IMF's website. These are audited by the Auditor General. Temasek's portfolio value and shareholder's equity are available on their website and annual report and audited by KPMG. You don't need to be a God to get at these numbers.

And if you read the govt's response on the President Ong issue (rather than the John Harding version), President Ong was kept informed of all financial reserves. It was the value of the immovable property owned by the govt that the Accountant General had problems in valuing at short notice, hence the now famous remark that it would take 56 man years to do so, although a listing of these immovable properties was given to the President. But I doubt you would believe the govt's side of the story; you would much prefer the John Harding version. But no matter, this is not the subject of this thread.

 

[johnny333]

The official reserves held by MAS are given on their website as well as on IMF's website. These are audited by the Auditor General. Temasek's portfolio value and shareholder's equity are available on their website and annual report and audited by KPMG. You don't need to be a God to get at these numbers.

And if you read the govt's response on the President Ong issue (rather than the John Harding version), President Ong was kept informed of all financial reserves. It was the value of the immovable property owned by the govt that the Accountant General had problems in valuing at short notice, hence the now famous remark that it would take 56 man years to do so, although a listing of these immovable properties was given to the President. But I doubt you would believe the govt's side of the story; you would much prefer the John Harding version. But no matter, this is not the subject of this thread.

OTC was the president & his job was to safeguard the reserves. He was stonewalled & prevented from doing his job. This is very suspicious & lends credence to the suspicion that the Lees are trying to hide the facts

 

[omnia1]

OTC was the president & his job was to safeguard the reserves. He was stonewalled & prevented from doing his job. This is very suspicious & lends credence to the suspicion that the Lees are trying to hide the facts

Like I said, I didn't expect you to believe the govt's side of the story but that's fine.

The fact still remains that Singapore's reserve data, as held by MAS and Temasek are easily available off the Net; you can check them for yourself. And if you look carefully at those numbers, you will realise that Singapore is freaking rich when it comes to reserves and our CPF is nowhere near bankruptcy. That's the hard truth that many just refuse to accept.

 

[johnny333]

Like I said, I didn't expect you to believe the govt's side of the story but that's fine.

The fact still remains that Singapore's reserve data, as held by MAS and Temasek are easily available off the Net; you can check them for yourself. And if you look carefully at those numbers, you will realise that Singapore is freaking rich when it comes to reserves and our CPF is nowhere near bankruptcy. That's the hard truth that many just refuse to accept.

That's the problem with Spore, there's so many gullible people out there
Give them half truths & they will conveniently ignore the danger signals.

As I've said, when people like you find out the "hard facts" you'll be among the first to scream for the PAP's blood.