Rebutting Tan Kin Lian's call for a minimum wage

[Ramseth]

Dear Locke,

Where is the EXTRA COST? There is NO EXTRA COST when you waive the levy, set the minimum wage.

The cost of a maid including levy is about S$600 p.m. So you're suggesting waiving the levy and set the minimum wage at S$600 p.m.?

Foreign maids get better paid but what do Singaporeans especially elder and unskilled workers get better off? The argument for minimum wage is exactly because S$600 to say S$900 p.m. is insufficient for a working Singaporean to maintain a dignifiably acceptable standard of living as a Singaporean in Singapore without burdening parents or children or other relatives or even friends.

Why go to trouble of legislating the minimum wage at S$600 p.m.? Most at the bottom are already being paid and struggling with this amount even without legislation.

If we're going to discuss minimum wage, let's discuss minimum wage. You're either confusing or hijacking it with maid levy.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

The cost of a maid including levy is about S$600 p.m. So you're suggesting waiving the levy and set the minimum wage at S$600 p.m.?

Foreign maids get better paid but what do Singaporeans especially elder and unskilled workers get better off? The argument for minimum wage is exactly because S$600 to say S$900 p.m. is insufficient for a working Singaporean to maintain a dignifiably acceptable standard of living as a Singaporean in Singapore without burdening parents or children or other relatives or even friends.

Why go to trouble of legislating the minimum wage at S$600 p.m.? Most at the bottom are already being paid and struggling with this amount even without legislation.

If we're going to discuss minimum wage, let's discuss minimum. You're either confusing or hijacking it with maid levy.

Dear Ramseth,

Many Singaporean workers are getting less than $600!

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Ramseth]

Many Singaporean workers are getting less than $600!

I don't think that any Singaporean working full-time 8-hour workdays gets paid less than S$600 p.m. Show me some credible examples.

Part-time half-day jobs, yes. NTUC or SevenEleven part-time cashiers usually grossed around S$400+/- per month depending on the hours and days worked. Even under CPF law, any job that pays under S$600 is CPF exempt and not considered full-time employment.

 

[ArtBoon]

Found

http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2005/07/study/tn0507101s.htm

In Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Italy and Sweden - the remaining six 'old' EU Member States - as well as in Norway and Cyprus, collective agreements are the main mechanism used for regulating low pay.

Hey I was just wondering does Denmark have a minimum wage policy?

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Cheers Bro

Found

http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2005/07/study/tn0507101s.htm

In Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Italy and Sweden - the remaining six 'old' EU Member States - as well as in Norway and Cyprus, collective agreements are the main mechanism used for regulating low pay.

 

[Zombie]

In Philippines, there is a governmental regulatory body overseeing the policymaking and placements of overseas jobs. It decides on the minimum wage, currently set at US$400 for maids.

How much is enough? Any Tom, Dick, Harry, TKL and GMS have their own “correct” views. I see no purpose in arguing. But if you are interested, you can check out the country’s minimum wages and see how they compare to US$400.
(Note: 1 Philippine peso = US$ 0.021)

http://www.nwpc.dole.gov.ph/rtwpb.html
http://www.nwpc.dole.gov.ph/pages/ncr/cmwr_table.html

It is understood that there is no practical way to legally enforce the minimum wage in another country. Nevertheless, the regulatory body seeks compliance through the local licensed recruitment agencies, to secure overseas contracts in the interests of the maids.

In Indonesia, their government sets the minimum wage at S$350. They even once threatened to stop sending their maids over for anything lesser.

But, like many commercial arrangements, there are loopholes. Maids are far lesser protected, had they gone through the unlicensed/illegal agencies, or more commonly, got hired directly by foreign employers. This is the reason why GMS thinks that the minimum wage is not even a policy. Corrupted middlemen, especially those in Indonesia, are eating too much into the wages of the maids, that most of the wage increments would only go into their pockets. Implementing a minimum wage law in the host country alone will not solve the problem.

Anyway, as I have said before, it makes no sense to justify an across-the-board minimum wage law in Singapore, simply because of one particular type of imported labor in HK.

 

[Zombie]

Any attempt to pass off that as minimum wage is an insult to civilisation.

If you don't know whose attempt it is, open your mouth and ask.

http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/printfriendly/0,4139,127580,00.html

Under new rules imposed by the Philippine government last December, all Filipino maids should be paid at least US$400 ($606) a month, up from at least $320, their average wage in Singapore.

The Philippine Embassy in Singapore has since issued a statement that all new maids from March onwards must be paid the minimum wage.

http://www.indonesia-ottawa.org/information/details.php?type=news_copy&id=4098

Under plans to raise the minimum wage for its overseas workers, the Indonesian government said it will increase this figure to $350 — or 1.9 million rupiah — a month for those working in Singapore.

This is 25 per cent higher than the current wage of $280 — a figure that has not changed for more than 10 years.

"We won't send workers if the provisions are not followed," said Mr Jumhur Hidayat, the head of the National Agency for Indonesian Overseas Workers Placement and Protection, according to the Tempo newspaper on Friday.

 

[jixiaolan]

If you don't know whose attempt it is, open your mouth and ask.

http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/printfriendly/0,4139,127580,00.html

Minimum "export" wage and minimum wage are not the same thing. You can expect $6000 salary but when the market only offer you $200, it is a case of take it or leave it. Anyway, placing a minimum price tag on "quitters" is also an infringement against human rights...no?

 

[Zombie]

Minimum "export" wage and minimum wage are not the same thing.

This is very similar to what I have said before.

HK has no minimum wage law, except for the import of foreign maids only. Essentially this is minimum import wage, and there are still some HK locals earning lesser than the foreign maids.

And GMS is trying to use this minimum import wage in HK, to justify the across-the-board minimum wages we all should be using.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

This is very similar to what I have said before.

HK has no minimum wage law, except for the import of foreign maids only. Essentially this is minimum import wage, and there are still some HK locals earning lesser than the foreign maids.

And GMS is trying to use this minimum import wage in HK, to justify the across-the-board minimum wages we all should be using.

Dear Zombie,

I am merely comparing the wage of maids in HK as to Singapore and how it would affect the quality of maids employed. And this is helped by the fact that there is a minimum wage for maids in Hong Kong.

The HK SAR is to make laws on Statutory Minimum wage:

(Afternote: If I remember correctly, they have already passed the legislation a couple of months ago.)

http://en.chinaelections.org/newsinfo.asp?newsid=19303

HKSAR to introduce legislation on statutory minimum wage

Keyword: Hong Kong minimum wage
Hong Kong, Oct. 15 (Xinhua) -- Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (HKSAR) Chief Executive Donald Tsang said here Wednesday that the HKSAR government will proceed with the legislative work on a statutory minimum wage.

Delivering the 2008-09 Policy Address at the Legislative Council Wednesday morning, Tsang said the HKSAR government is inclined to go for an across-the-board statutory minimum wage and aim to introduce a bill into the Council in the 2008-09 legislative session.

"I am aware that some people, including businessmen, employers and academics, have qualms about the introduction of a statutory minimum wage. Let me stress that the government will handle the relevant issues, including the minimum wage level and related review mechanism, in a prudent and pragmatic manner," he said.

Tsang said the SAR government will establish an advisory Minimum Wage Commission MWC) after drawing reference from the successful experience of other countries. MWC members will be drawn from the labor sector, business community, academia and government departments. The Commission will study the level of minimum wage as well as the review mechanism, to ensure a sensible balance between safeguarding the interests of grassroots workers and forestalling the loss of low-paid jobs, while sustaining our economic growth and competitiveness. The Labor and Welfare Bureau(LWB) will proceed immediately with the preparatory work for the establishment of the MWC.

Tsang reiterated that the introduction of an across-the-board minimum wage should protect workers against exploitation while at the same time prevent the loss of low-paid jobs. He said wages are returns for employees' labor. As family needs vary, the minimum wage may not be sufficient to cover family expenses of all employees. Employees in need can obtain assistance under the current social security system, which can also encourage able- bodied recipients of the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance( CSSA) to rejoin the workforce and motivate them to move from welfare to self-reliance.

The policy address, titled "Embracing New Challenges," responded to Hong Kong's new challenges, including the current global financial crisis, food safety and environmental pollution.

The Policy Address was Tsang's second annual policy address since he won a second term as HKSAR Chief Executive in March 2007.

 

[jacys]

Hi Meng Seng,

I don't think it will come to pass as there are stiff opposition especially from the business community on the imposing of a minimum wage.

Dear Zombie,

I am merely comparing the wage of maids in HK as to Singapore and how it would affect the quality of maids employed. And this is helped by the fact that there is a minimum wage for maids in Hong Kong.

The HK SAR is going to make laws on Statutory Minimum wage:

http://en.chinaelections.org/newsinfo.asp?newsid=19303

HKSAR to introduce legislation on statutory minimum wage

Keyword: Hong Kong minimum wage
Hong Kong, Oct. 15 (Xinhua) -- Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (HKSAR) Chief Executive Donald Tsang said here Wednesday that the HKSAR government will proceed with the legislative work on a statutory minimum wage.

Delivering the 2008-09 Policy Address at the Legislative Council Wednesday morning, Tsang said the HKSAR government is inclined to go for an across-the-board statutory minimum wage and aim to introduce a bill into the Council in the 2008-09 legislative session.

"I am aware that some people, including businessmen, employers and academics, have qualms about the introduction of a statutory minimum wage. Let me stress that the government will handle the relevant issues, including the minimum wage level and related review mechanism, in a prudent and pragmatic manner," he said.

Tsang said the SAR government will establish an advisory Minimum Wage Commission MWC) after drawing reference from the successful experience of other countries. MWC members will be drawn from the labor sector, business community, academia and government departments. The Commission will study the level of minimum wage as well as the review mechanism, to ensure a sensible balance between safeguarding the interests of grassroots workers and forestalling the loss of low-paid jobs, while sustaining our economic growth and competitiveness. The Labor and Welfare Bureau(LWB) will proceed immediately with the preparatory work for the establishment of the MWC.

Tsang reiterated that the introduction of an across-the-board minimum wage should protect workers against exploitation while at the same time prevent the loss of low-paid jobs. He said wages are returns for employees' labor. As family needs vary, the minimum wage may not be sufficient to cover family expenses of all employees. Employees in need can obtain assistance under the current social security system, which can also encourage able- bodied recipients of the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance( CSSA) to rejoin the workforce and motivate them to move from welfare to self-reliance.

The policy address, titled "Embracing New Challenges," responded to Hong Kong's new challenges, including the current global financial crisis, food safety and environmental pollution.

The Policy Address was Tsang's second annual policy address since he won a second term as HKSAR Chief Executive in March 2007.

 

[Zombie]

The HK SAR is to make laws on Statutory Minimum wage:

(Afternote: If I remember correctly, they have already passed the legislation a couple of months ago.)

They have been trying for many years, and the stork has made many promises but still no sign of the baby.

And no, they are just considering it. Because in 2006, their Chief Executive (I think) asked them to try out the "Wage Protection Movement", to promote voluntary minimum wage, for 2 years first.

This one can help you.

http://www.legco.gov.hk/english/index.htm

http://www.legco.gov.hk/database/english/data_mp/mp-min-wage.htm

http://www.legco.gov.hk/yr07-08/english/panels/mp/papers/mp0708cb2-2480-3-e.pdf

2. The Chief Executive stated in his 2007-08 Policy Address that an overall review of the Wage Protection Movement (WPM) would be conducted in October 2008 and that if the WPM fails, the Administration would introduce a bill on an SMW for cleaning workers and security guards as early as possible in the 2008-09 legislative session.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

They have been trying for many years, and the stork has made many promises but still no sign of the baby.

And no, they are just considering it. Because in 2006, their Chief Executive (I think) asked them to try out the "Wage Protection Movement", to promote voluntary minimum wage, for 2 years first.

This one can help you.
http://www.legco.gov.hk/english/index.htm

and

http://www.legco.gov.hk/yr07-08/english/panels/mp/papers/mp0708cb2-2480-3-e.pdf

Dear Zombie,

Let me do a check at the end of this month. I remember back in Oct, something was discussed about it in HK Legco.

But the fact is this, the minimum wage policy on the maid has impact on other low wage jobs. It means that whatever minimum wage stated for the maids, it will become a reference point for other low wage jobs. Of course, maids have their meals and lodging all covered and thus, the HK workers would expect something more than that.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[The_Latest_H]

Hi Meng Seng,

I don't think it will come to pass as there are stiff opposition especially from the business community on the imposing of a minimum wage.

The business community has had a free ride on their employees for the last few decades.

But to be honest, a debt-ridden society, such as ours, is never gonna sustain an economy that is dependent on government over-taxation and spending- and on consumer spending.

Eventually if one earns less, one spends less personally. And when one pays more in hidden charges by acronyms, they won't spend more either. And these corporations suffer as a result locally.

But a society who has their bank accounts in the black, is more likely to spend more, and save more- making corporations more likely to make a profit and to grow.

So there must be a balance. Having said that, a minimum wage is not a solve-all solution. The real issue of increasing costs in Singapore is due to higher inflation caused by the PAP government, and by their actions which led to S'pore being more exposed to the economic burst in the US. If we clamp down on the increasing hidden costs(like the maid tax)- removing the ERP slowly, reducing bureaucracy within the government, liberating the private sector slowly- then I think inflation can be brought down.

Then even with a minimum wage law legislated, I think the higher wage costs will be mitigated by the higher profits local SMEs and MNCs make in the long run.

 

[chewed]

The business community has had a free ride on their employees for the last few decades.

But to be honest, a debt-ridden society, such as ours, is never gonna sustain an economy that is dependent on government over-taxation and spending- and on consumer spending.

Eventually if one earns less, one spends less personally. And when one pays more in hidden charges by acronyms, they won't spend more either. And these corporations suffer as a result locally.

But a society who has their bank accounts in the black, is more likely to spend more, and save more- making corporations more likely to make a profit and to grow.

So there must be a balance. Having said that, a minimum wage is not a solve-all solution. The real issue of increasing costs in Singapore is due to higher inflation caused by the PAP government, and by their actions which led to S'pore being more exposed to the economic burst in the US. If we clamp down on the increasing hidden costs(like the maid tax)- removing the ERP slowly, reducing bureaucracy within the government, liberating the private sector slowly- then I think inflation can be brought down.

Then even with a minimum wage law legislated, I think the higher wage costs will be mitigated by the higher profits local SMEs and MNCs make in the long run.

H,

as someone running a biz in SG i think SMEs are not exactly reaping in the "higher profits" as u mentioned. The only entities reaping high profits are the GLCs.

 

[yellow_people]

If we clamp down on the increasing hidden costs(like the maid tax)- removing the ERP slowly,

The maid levy is in place to discourage a flood of foreign maids in Singapore as it comes with a social cost should the levy be removed or substantially reduced.

Other hidden costs taxes like COE and ERP can be avoided if one is financially prudent. You simply take the public transport. These are luxuries that those struggling to make ends meet can do without.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

I wonder whether it is then working because I gather there are over 100K maids.

The maid levy is in place to discourage a flood of foreign maids in Singapore as it comes with a social cost should the levy be removed or substantially reduced.

.

 

[ArtBoon]

Because couple prefer the lifestyle of working and subcontracting housework/take care of babies to their maids?

I wonder whether it is then working because I gather there are over 100K maids.

 

[The_Latest_H]

The maid levy is in place to discourage a flood of foreign maids in Singapore as it comes with a social cost should the levy be removed or substantially reduced.

Other hidden costs taxes like COE and ERP can be avoided if one is financially prudent. You simply take the public transport. These are luxuries that those struggling to make ends meet can do without.

Well, public transportation companies are run as monopolies and the government has no independent bodies to regulate them(from increasing prices of the rides). Furthermore these companies have also been politicised and micro-managed by Temasek Holding people.

That has made public transport just short of being as expensive as owing a car. I have spent less money using public transport in Perth here everyday using a university student concession card than I using a student concession card ez-link card in Singapore.

 

[The_Latest_H]

H,

as someone running a biz in SG i think SMEs are not exactly reaping in the "higher profits" as u mentioned. The only entities reaping high profits are the GLCs.

That's why if an alternative government takes over, a review of the GLCs should be initiated to see which businesses can be sold, which can be held still. Every line of every document that an incoming new government have to get, by law, will be combed thoroughly.

Do note however that a divestment of all these owned by Temasek and GIC will take many years. Russia is one example where state-owned companies formerly owned by CCCP cadres were sold off so quickly to rich oligarchs that the Russian people suffered(this was in the 90s during the Yeltsin period).

A switch from a state-owned monopoly dictatorship to a dictatorship of a quick-rich new millionaire/billionaire CEO makes no positive difference for the people.