Rebutting Tan Kin Lian's call for a minimum wage

[lockeliberal]

Dear GMS

Another report appended from HK NGOs.

Hong Kong - Indonesian maids working in Hong Kong are underpaid by 36 million HK dollars (US dollars 4.6 million) each month, a media report said Saturday. At the same time, three in every five maids have to pay their entire monthly salary for up to eight months to the agents who got them their jobs, the Standard said.
The claims were made in a survey carried out by the Asian Migrant Centre which interviewed 2,097 Indonesian maids between September and December 2006 when the minimum wage was HK dollars 3,270.
The survey showed 22 per cent of those interviewed were paid below the minimum wage, while 20 domestic helpers earned less than HK dollars 1,500 per month. More than 20 per cent said they received less money than was stated on the pay slips with the difference varying between 80 and 2,370 HK dollars.
Asian Migrant Centre executive director Rex Varona said on average, each of the maids was missing out on 1,390 HK dollarsr every month, making a total of 36 million KH dollars each month.
He said employers and agents were able to get away with such systematic extortion because of the ineffective monitoring of Hong Kong's labour laws.
The study, jointly carried out by the migrant centre and Hong Kong Coalition of Indonesian Migrant Workers Organisations, also showed one maid in four missed out on the four statutory holidays each month.
Maids are entitled to one day off a week according to government regulations, but 25 per cent of Indonesian maids did not get any time off.

Copyright, respective author or news agency

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Locke,

It is interesting to note that you used news report from 2003, NGO report from 2006 to make your point.

Now is the end of 2008.

And you have just reiterated my point that it is a minority (22%) that were underpaid. Over the years, there were complains made and employers prosecuted over such pay arrays. How could you claim that it is not "enforced"?

In any common sense, someone has to make a police report for a crime to be investigated. Someone would also need to make a complain to the labor department in order for actions to be taken. In all fairness, I would say that HK government has acted fairly in enforcing the minimum wage policy, if and only if maids are willing to make the complains.

Although there are no "reports" of the same kind in Singapore, but I do know of cases of Singapore employers underpaying their maids, basically making them slaves. But as long as they keep quiet about it, nobody could do anything about it.

There will always be bad apples in any society. It is a matter of reporting it and getting justice done. Unless you could prove that HK government did nothing to enforce its own policies even when a complain is made, then I will agree with you that HK government is NOT ENFORCING the minimum wage policy.

So your assertions really lacks a strong footing.

Goh Meng Seng

Dear GMS

Another report appended from HK NGOs.

Hong Kong - Indonesian maids working in Hong Kong are underpaid by 36 million HK dollars (US dollars 4.6 million) each month, a media report said Saturday. At the same time, three in every five maids have to pay their entire monthly salary for up to eight months to the agents who got them their jobs, the Standard said.
The claims were made in a survey carried out by the Asian Migrant Centre which interviewed 2,097 Indonesian maids between September and December 2006 when the minimum wage was HK dollars 3,270.
The survey showed 22 per cent of those interviewed were paid below the minimum wage, while 20 domestic helpers earned less than HK dollars 1,500 per month. More than 20 per cent said they received less money than was stated on the pay slips with the difference varying between 80 and 2,370 HK dollars.
Asian Migrant Centre executive director Rex Varona said on average, each of the maids was missing out on 1,390 HK dollarsr every month, making a total of 36 million KH dollars each month.
He said employers and agents were able to get away with such systematic extortion because of the ineffective monitoring of Hong Kong's labour laws.
The study, jointly carried out by the migrant centre and Hong Kong Coalition of Indonesian Migrant Workers Organisations, also showed one maid in four missed out on the four statutory holidays each month.
Maids are entitled to one day off a week according to government regulations, but 25 per cent of Indonesian maids did not get any time off.

Copyright, respective author or news agency

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

BTW, Locke,

You have just proven my points that this market is IMPERFECT as you want it to be. There will ALWAYS be people who wants to EXPLOIT other of their jobs.

Imagine if there is no minimum wage policy implemented, the situation in HK may be even worse!

The situation in Singapore is very bad. Maybe you should walk out and talk to more people, cleaners, coffeeshop workers and such then you will realize that the ugly sides of human beings are pretty wide spread in Singapore.

Goh Meng Seng

Dear GMS

Another report appended from HK NGOs.

Hong Kong - Indonesian maids working in Hong Kong are underpaid by 36 million HK dollars (US dollars 4.6 million) each month, a media report said Saturday. At the same time, three in every five maids have to pay their entire monthly salary for up to eight months to the agents who got them their jobs, the Standard said.
The claims were made in a survey carried out by the Asian Migrant Centre which interviewed 2,097 Indonesian maids between September and December 2006 when the minimum wage was HK dollars 3,270.
The survey showed 22 per cent of those interviewed were paid below the minimum wage, while 20 domestic helpers earned less than HK dollars 1,500 per month. More than 20 per cent said they received less money than was stated on the pay slips with the difference varying between 80 and 2,370 HK dollars.
Asian Migrant Centre executive director Rex Varona said on average, each of the maids was missing out on 1,390 HK dollarsr every month, making a total of 36 million KH dollars each month.
He said employers and agents were able to get away with such systematic extortion because of the ineffective monitoring of Hong Kong's labour laws.
The study, jointly carried out by the migrant centre and Hong Kong Coalition of Indonesian Migrant Workers Organisations, also showed one maid in four missed out on the four statutory holidays each month.
Maids are entitled to one day off a week according to government regulations, but 25 per cent of Indonesian maids did not get any time off.

Copyright, respective author or news agency

 

[cleareyes]

$1800 and $2500 respectively.

are you sure?

 

[Ramseth]

Dear Locke,

The point is about whether there is a minimum wage, not about whether it is enforced.

If it's not enforced, then have the law for what? Whenever a piece of legislation is proposed, beside the definition of the offence and the provision of penalty, the means of detection and enforcement must be considered too. Otherwise, the offence and the penalty are meaningless.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

'Brother/Comrade' Lim Swee Say shall probably say "Upturn the downturn"

The situation in Singapore is very bad. Maybe you should walk out and talk to more people, cleaners, coffeeshop workers and such then you will realize that the ugly sides of human beings are pretty wide spread in Singapore.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

What about 377A?

If it's not enforced, then have the law for what? Whenever a piece of legislation is proposed, beside the definition of the offence and the provision of penalty, the means of detection and enforcement must be considered too. Otherwise, the offence and the penalty are meaningless.

 

[Zombie]

If it's not enforced, then have the law for what?

LOL, it is like taking off the pants to fart.
Extra works, extra costs but serving no purpose.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

If it's not enforced, then have the law for what? Whenever a piece of legislation is proposed, beside the definition of the offence and the provision of penalty, the means of detection and enforcement must be considered too. Otherwise, the offence and the penalty are meaningless.

Dear Ramseth,

I was talking about things in context. Enforcement, I have touched already.

If you want to claim HK govt did not enforce the law, then the proper thing is to show that HK govt DID NOT ACT on complains of underpayment of salaries. But this is NOT the case here. What Locke has quoted are people who are forced, coerced or willing to work for lower wages and did not report to the authorities for whatever reasons they have.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[myfoot123]

Dear Meng Seng

The min wage in SG is a no brainer in view of the large numbers of domestic maids we have. Its a middle class luxury that few in the West.

If I am not wrong, certain category of workers (including domestic helpers, sailers...etc) are not covered under Singapore employment act. I believe their own country embassy will administer their wages..

When we mentioned minimum wage, it should be those workers falls within the category of employment act. These include cleaners, factory workers, and most of the workers in Singapore. Even with employment act in place, many employees were still being exploited in terms of leaves and benefits because either the HR dept are not good in such Act or could not be bothered or workers do not know their rights and how to seek redress.

 

[Ramseth]

What about 377A?

I saw this one coming.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear GMS

I am against the min wage not because I disagree with its objectives and principles but because I disagree with the policy as a means to achieve the objectives and principles. I am all for helping the poor as stated and I am in no way oblivious to their plight but I believe that a policy of an expanded workfare and greater direct health care and education subsidies would work far better than a min wage.

In HK I believe the min wage has been legislated for domestic workers i.e maids alone. The experience in HK have been born out by similar experiences in the US and in the EU whereby an excessively high min wage in a home market makes illegal workers more attractive for domestic dirty and dangerous jobs. Illegals bring with it a resultant problem of human slavery and smuggling.


Cheers

Locke

 

[yellow_people]

For me at least the minimum wage is a blunt populist instrument that does nothing to address fundamental economic issues.

This is true. Enforcing a minimum wage policy in this present economic climate is only going to put even more workers out on the street without a job. Minimum wage policy will not help one iota when one's salary is ZERO.

 

[ArtBoon]

Min wage must be balanced by control of foreign workers.
People must also be prepared that low value add business (that cannot afford to pay people min wage and cannot find cheap foreign labour to do the job) will be out of business.
Finally, GLCs must be ready to earn less to support some local supporting industry.
Several things have to happen at the same time....

This is true. Enforcing a minimum wage policy in this present economic climate is only going to put even more workers out on the street without a job. Minimum wage policy will not help one iota when one's salary is ZERO.

 

[kakowi]

Suffice to say for now that the implementation of an across the board minimum wage will lead to an overall increase in cost of living in almost every sector of our lives.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

From Yogi Bear in SDP:

This development is completely expected as the Singapore economy is structurally flawed. While there is no denying that the global crisis impacts the Singapore economy, it is not the complete cause of its rapid decline.

The government sees fit as always that the People should bail it out from its policy failures. We note the People paid for the previous recessions in part by a drastic reduction of employers' contribution to the CPF.

The present policy of weakening the S$ to boost exports will push us further into stagflation. The People pays with inflation. LHL claims it will do the opposite.

Time will tell. We are in for a rough ride.

Suffice to say for now that the implementation of an across the board minimum wage will lead to an overall increase in cost of living in almost every sector of our lives.

 

[Zombie]

Suffice to say for now that the implementation of an across the board minimum wage will lead to an overall increase in cost of living in almost every sector of our lives.

And it makes no sense for someone to argue in favour of across the board minimum wage just because of one particular imported labour in HK.

 

[Ramseth]

I was talking about things in context. Enforcement, I have touched already.

What context? Which aspect of enforcement have you touched on?

If you want to claim HK govt did not enforce the law, then the proper thing is to show that HK govt DID NOT ACT on complains of underpayment of salaries. But this is NOT the case here. What Locke has quoted are people who are forced, coerced or willing to work for lower wages and did not report to the authorities for whatever reasons they have.

I didn't claim that the HK government doing anything or not doing anything.

Anyway, how to force people to work below their desired wages? Slavery? The only other such system I know of that achieves this in Singapore is National Service. Should minimum wage be applied to NS as well?

 

[The_Latest_H]

Dear GMS

I am against the min wage not because I disagree with its objectives and principles but because I disagree with the policy as a means to achieve the objectives and principles. I am all for helping the poor as stated and I am in no way oblivious to their plight but I believe that a policy of an expanded workfare and greater direct health care and education subsidies would work far better than a min wage.

In HK I believe the min wage has been legislated for domestic workers i.e maids alone. The experience in HK have been born out by similar experiences in the US and in the EU whereby an excessively high min wage in a home market makes illegal workers more attractive for domestic dirty and dangerous jobs. Illegals bring with it a resultant problem of human slavery and smuggling.


Cheers

Locke

You're getting yourself into an "either/or" position. That's pretty ideological, with all due respect. I mean western countries, and HK has minimum wage, and also subsidies as such, and they are in a better position than our blue collar workers.

Its a case of "both" and not of "either/or" anymore. And besides, even if a minimum wage law is passed, the poorest of the poor will receive the benefits. However, a growing number of Singaporeans, especially younger ones, are already not working blue collar once they graduate with a BA. If you are a lawyer, fresh from an university(foreign or local), you don't need a minimum wage. So relax.

Its not gonna impact Singapore greatly. We aren't in the 60s anymore, when most of our fathers and grandparents were working blue collar jobs straight out of secondary school.

 

[kakowi]

(1) Porfiro, i do not understand what that yogi bear is saying.

It is my opinion that the structure of the singapore's economy is well thought out and relevant to sustaining a good living for singaporeans.

Rather the problem is the vision of the current leaders, which is eroding this structure forged in the past.

To be fair to them, some of their attempts at patching up the breakages in the structure are quite credible.


​

(2) Minimum wage applied to foreign maids only will not impact cost of living. This is because foreign maids are employed by consumers directly.

And these consumers cannot pass their costs down to others.

All they can do is not to vote for those proposing such schemes.
​

(3) Minimum wage applied across the board will raise the wage bill. For some businesses, the cost will be more, others less. What percentage of wage bill? It will be good for the proponents to tell us - at least it shows that they are not talking theoretically.

Let's say a 2% increase. Is that a lot? Make it 1% then.

A gst increase in 1% is on the 'value-added' basis - which means that companies can reclaim that 1% from the IRAS. So that consumers pay only 1% increase and companies recoup the higher cost.

This result in how much inflation? In practice, how much inflation did you experience since PM LHL took over? To be fair to him, consider only how much inflation you experience just before and slightly after he announced the gst increased. Then include the increase to the time it was implemented.
​

Yet, here some opposition is talking about something worse than a gst increase.

An increase in wage (include services costs if there are components that are outsourced) costs of 1% across the board, continued along the value chain with many companies all raising by 1%, with all companies not able to reclaim it from the IRAS.

How many percentage points will the final consumer absorbed?