Rebutting Tan Kin Lian's call for a minimum wage

[jixiaolan]

Sshhh, I tell you a little secret. Don't let GMS knows.

There is already minimum wage amount set to protect the interests of the foreign maids working in Singapore and elsewhere.

Pls dun make a mockery of yrself. That little petty pay is only fit for slave. Any attempt to pass off that as minimum wage is an insult to civilisation. It make you no different from that elite spoil brat who is infamous for spewing "if you're not good enough, life will kick you in the balls. that's just how things go. please, get out of my elite uncaring face."

 

[The_Latest_H]

Great post. We have too many morons who are simply looking for someone to blame for their woes or just to vent frustration. One to many demagogue tongued politicians from the Wannabe PAP or Wayang Party (WP) party and one ex WP member who are using this as a cover to advance their own political agenda. This WP party's own leader's contribution has been to call CSJ a mad dog in the state owned press. What else has this arsehole done?? Be wary of these motherfuckers.

I'll just highlight the above quote as it says quite clearly how minimum wage can be used as a pretext to discriminate against race. Actually for that matter it can be used as a pretext for all forms of job discrimination. One just have to name it.

But let's not start a thread on that as its been done before and we all know where these losers and WP demagogues stand on this.

Before you start throwing smoke bombs to cover your behind, and to distract people, I do recall that you hadn't argued convincingly against me in regards to the same topic in the general forum.

I mean, if you wanna debate on the issues, go ahead and do that with us. But if you just come off with such language in conclusion, then you're just indicating that you're feeling sore and angry after a debate which you have lost because of yourself. That's not a mark of a good man. I do hope you can do better because here isn't a one-sided debate like what the PAP usually demands.

Its a higher standard of a real open debate; make sure your homework's done so that you can reach it.

 

[Ramseth]

Either Meng Seng is confused or he's confusing me. Is this about minimum wage or about maid levy?

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Madcow

Okk I have to believe that you are going somewhat madcow again. Firstly no one believes that they can get qualitatively a better maid at $600 versus a maid at $300. Put it to any middle class SINGAPOREAN whether they would pay $600 or $300 for a maid and I suspect the answer is not much of a diff.

Next if as you have suggested SG Cleaners will benefit, How much can they benefit at $600 a month min wage ? Better living standards will be better served through income subsidies aka expanded workfare, more health care education subsidies, therefore better living standards for the lower income groups.



Locke

 

[yellow_people]

I mean, if you wanna debate on the issues, go ahead and do that with us. But if you just come off with such language in conclusion, then you're just indicating that you're feeling sore and angry after a debate which you have lost because of yourself. That's not a mark of a good man. I do hope you can do better because here isn't a one-sided debate like what the PAP usually demands.

Its a higher standard of a real open debate; make sure your homework's done so that you can reach it.

I've already created a new thread and posted links on minimum wage requirements by MOM on FTs. Apparently to one loser that isn't even good enough as now there is concern over enforcement. There isn't one for the domestic worker and foreign worker, but you aren't interested in these workers. That is clear in the way you have replied. These are the ones doing the jobs Singaporeans do not want.

You and your demagogue tongued have clearly lost this argument and I don't respond to posts that clearly reveal your agenda. Fair minded Singaporeans are already aware that the WP is made up of opportunists and riff raffs.

What Lee Kuan Yew said about a healthy dose of incompetent government Singaporeans must undergo is very true and I believe such an incompetent political party is the Worker's Party. Once the SG women and children end up as maids or prostitutes in 3rd world countries will that message be driven home. I hope that day will not come and people will see the WP for what they truly are - demagogue tongued riff raffs who give public the kool-aid and nothing else. Self serving SOBs.

 

[Ramseth]

Dear Madcow

Okk I have to believe that you are going somewhat madcow again. Firstly no one believes that they can get qualitatively a better maid at $600 versus a maid at $300. Put it to any middle class SINGAPOREAN whether they would pay $600 or $300 for a maid and I suspect the answer is not much of a diff.

Next if as you have suggested SG Cleaners will benefit, How much can they benefit at $600 a month min wage ?

Locke

Dear Locke, the minimum wage as suggested in the TKL blog, and as apparently supported by Meng Seng, is $8 per hour or $1,280 per month (based on 8 hours per day and 20 days per month of work).

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Madcow

Okk I have to believe that you are going somewhat madcow again. Firstly no one believes that they can get qualitatively a better maid at $600 versus a maid at $300. Put it to any middle class SINGAPOREAN whether they would pay $600 or $300 for a maid and I suspect the answer is not much of a diff.

Next if as you have suggested SG Cleaners will benefit, How much can they benefit at $600 a month min wage ?



Locke

Dear Locke,

There is already an ANSWER to this.

Hong Kongers and Taiwanese are getting much better quality maids than us, paying almost the same amount of money!

Hong Kong govt has just decided to waive the maid levy, for your info.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Ramseth

I wonder how many people will pay their maids $1280 a month, but then going by GMS argument if I pay $1280 s month for a maid. I can probably get a secretary, and a model aka steve chia all for $1280 but then some of us just WANT A MAID.




Locke

 

[Wisely]

Before you start throwing smoke bombs to cover your behind, and to distract people, I do recall that you hadn't argued convincingly against me in regards to the same topic in the general forum.

I mean, if you wanna debate on the issues, go ahead and do that with us. But if you just come off with such language in conclusion, then you're just indicating that you're feeling sore and angry after a debate which you have lost because of yourself. That's not a mark of a good man. I do hope you can do better because here isn't a one-sided debate like what the PAP usually demands.

Its a higher standard of a real open debate; make sure your homework's done so that you can reach it.

Must be Ng Ejay with another nick. Nothing to do with WP/unrelated to WP. Read Wayangparty's preamable.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Ramseth

I wonder how many people will pay their maids $1280 a month, but then going by GMS argument if I pay $1280 s month for a maid. I can probably get a secretary, and a model aka steve chia all for $1280 but then some of us just WANT A MAID.




Locke

Dear Locke,

I am only talking about the SAME COST $590 as what the maid employers are paying!

Goh Meng Seng

 

[kakowi]

GMS,

(1) i suppose your reply gives an implication that a textbook answer is out of touch with reality; but the examples quoted by another forumer in one of the above post regarding economists bears out the reasoning;

thus the analysis was substantiated by the better brains in the economic world;

you can only ignore that if you are better than them


(2) the other examples are what the singapore government actually implemented at a time when they actually had a conscience; it worked very well and for a long while the unemployment figures were low and inflation controlled


i honestly believe that you do not have an economic leg to stand on in this proposal

what you have is a political leg - because of the economic divide and rising cost of living - this stand may give you the extra votes to get you the political office you desire

but whilst it is profitable to you, it is not profitable to the voters

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear GMS

If I pay my maid $600 a month and there is no foreign worker levy, no Singaporeans will be maids for there amount. Net Net if you are arguing that the for worker levy be abolished as a middle class relief, I can support and agree with that position but the maids will still be paid $300 a month with the foreign levy savings going to an employer :_))


Locke

Dear Locke,

I am only talking about the SAME COST $590 as what the maid employers are paying!

Goh Meng Seng

 

[The_Latest_H]

I've already created a new thread and posted links on minimum wage requirements by MOM on FTs. Apparently to one loser that isn't even good enough as now there is concern over enforcement. There isn't one for the domestic worker and foreign worker, but you aren't interested in these workers. That is clear in the way you have replied. These are the ones doing the jobs Singaporeans do not want.

You and your demagogue tongued have clearly lost this argument and I don't respond to posts that clearly reveal your agenda. Fair minded Singaporeans are already aware that the WP is made up of opportunists and riff raffs.

What Lee Kuan Yew said about a healthy dose of incompetent government Singaporeans must undergo is very true and I believe such an incompetent political party is the Worker's Party. Once the SG women and children end up as maids or prostitutes in 3rd world countries will that message be driven home. I hope that day will not come and people will see the WP for what they truly are - demagogue tongued riff raffs who give public the kool-aid and nothing else. Self serving SOBs.

My offer for a meaningful, less nasty debate based on the issues still stands, even though your response has been the same as usual. When you are ready to drop that language, and start debating meaningfully with all of us, we will be ready to welcome you back.

 

[ArtBoon]

Looks like there is a lot of concern here on minimum wage driving up costs of maids etc.

The dynamics of this discussion, from where I see, works as follows:-

1. Minimum wage increase wage of maids to say $1200
2. Those that can afford, continue to pay for maids
3. Those that cannot afford, change their lifestyle, eg spend less on other items, or either husband/wife stays home.
4. Some Singaporean may decide to become maids.

Some people in category (2) and (3) will become unhappy.
Some people in category (4) will become happy.

To the politician, the question will be: is (2) + (3) more or less than (4) ?

I am assuming most people who use this forum are probably in the group (2) and (3) and less from (4)...

Here is another equation for business cost.

1. Min wage drives up cheap labour cost
2. If business can afford to absorb, they continue
3. If business cannot afford to absorb and becomes loss making, it closes down
4. People hired by (2) are happy
5. People lay off by (3) are unhappy
6. Some people doing business in (3) evolves into business in (2)

To politician, the consideration is
Short term (for vote collection): Is (4) more or less than (2) + (3) + (5)?
Long term "economic interest": Whether there is net increase of economic strength when (6) happens.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Hey I was just wondering does Denmark have a minimum wage policy?

Dear Radio

As stated I believe that the min wage policy is the wrong means to an end. I believe that you and I agree on the end, its just that we disagree about the means. I take your point about having your cake and eat it, however I am against the high tax environment which pays for generous unemployment and health care subsidies and combining it with a min wage/

Locke

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear GMS

If I pay my maid $600 a month and there is no foreign worker levy, no Singaporeans will be maids for there amount. Net Net if you are arguing that the for worker levy be abolished as a middle class relief, I can support and agree with that position but the maids will still be paid $300 a month with the foreign levy savings going to an employer :_))


Locke

Dear Locke,

I am not saying there will be Singaporeans who will be maids!

I am saying, when you employ your maid, you can demand maids with MORE experience! That's what is happening in HK.

BTW, there are local maids in HK, though they charge HIGHER than foreign maids.

A minimum wage does not mean all maids will be paid as such, my dear.


Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

GMS,

(1) i suppose your reply gives an implication that a textbook answer is out of touch with reality; but the examples quoted by another forumer in one of the above post regarding economists bears out the reasoning;

thus the analysis was substantiated by the better brains in the economic world;

you can only ignore that if you are better than them


(2) the other examples are what the singapore government actually implemented at a time when they actually had a conscience; it worked very well and for a long while the unemployment figures were low and inflation controlled


i honestly believe that you do not have an economic leg to stand on in this proposal

what you have is a political leg - because of the economic divide and rising cost of living - this stand may give you the extra votes to get you the political office you desire

but whilst it is profitable to you, it is not profitable to the voters

I am talking in practical terms. There is NO POLITICAL BROWNIE POINTS to be gained for anybody to fight for minimum wage in a country which is dominated by a middle class! LOL!

But what is right, will be right. You cannot just take economic theories and apply blindly.

As I have said, economic theories based solely on assumptions of FREE INFORMATION and FREE MOBILITY of labor/ capital. This is NOT possible for the vulnerable group.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[kakowi]

That is why i kept on telling you that the points i shared had been proven to be practical and pertinent to singapore's labour market. You proposed changes to our peril.

Let it be.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Meng Seng

Sometimes at the end of the day we just need a maid and an experienced maid well it is just not worth the extra costs.

You have failed to address many of out questions in defense of the min wage, doing a CTL more or less. Firstly many of us are for other policies which work better than the min wage in achieving a targeted income. We are not against the min wage objective per say but feel that other policies achieve the outcome better with less market distortion.

I am not evening going to point out the inconsistency when you claim that a min wage does not mean that you will be paid as much.



Locke

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Meng Seng

Sometimes at the end of the day we just need a maid and an experienced maid well it is just not worth the extra costs.

You have failed to address many of out questions in defense of the min wage, doing a CTL more or less. Firstly many of us are for other policies which work better than the min wage in achieving a targeted income. We are not against the min wage objective per say but feel that other policies achieve the outcome better with less market distortion.

I am not evening going to point out the inconsistency when you claim that a min wage does not mean that you will be paid as much.

Dear Locke,

Where is the EXTRA COST? There is NO EXTRA COST when you waive the levy, set the minimum wage.

This is the first time I know of somebody who rejects better quality employee with no extra cost!

Goh Meng Seng

Locke