Rebutting Tan Kin Lian's call for a minimum wage

[Avantas]

In recent years, there have been calls for the government to impose a minimum wage to help the low income workers who have seen their take home pay remaining stagnant for for over a decade, the latest coming from Mr Tan Kin Lian in a speech made at Hong Lim Park last Saturday.

A minimum wage is the lowest daily, hourly or monthly wage that employers may legally pay to employees or workers. Equivalently, it is the lowest wage at which workers may sell their labor.

Supporters of the minimum wage claim that it increases the workers’ earning power and protects them against exploitation by the employers. They argue that the widening income disparity between the rich and the poor in Singapore merits a relook at the minimum wage to prevent the low-income workers from being trapped in a vicious cycle of poverty.

Read full article here:

http://wayangparty.com/2008/12/09/a...-more-pain-than-relief-to-low-income-workers/

 

[jw5]

In recent years, there have been calls for the government to impose a minimum wage to help the low income workers who have seen their take home pay remaining stagnant for for over a decade, the latest coming from Mr Tan Kin Lian in a speech made at Hong Lim Park last Saturday.

A minimum wage is the lowest daily, hourly or monthly wage that employers may legally pay to employees or workers. Equivalently, it is the lowest wage at which workers may sell their labor.

Supporters of the minimum wage claim that it increases the workers’ earning power and protects them against exploitation by the employers. They argue that the widening income disparity between the rich and the poor in Singapore merits a relook at the minimum wage to prevent the low-income workers from being trapped in a vicious cycle of poverty.

Read full article here:

http://wayangparty.com/2008/12/09/a...-more-pain-than-relief-to-low-income-workers/

CST has been calling for this for years.
Perhaps TKL is going to follow in his shoes?

 

[Wisely]

Ejay was this written by you for Lim Swee Say? You're real sick in the mind.

 

[wayangbaobao]

wayang csj follow cst. now wayang tkl follow wayang csj

wayang party screwed all cst, wayang csj and wayang tkl in one post. well done

CST has been calling for this for years.
Perhaps TKL is going to follow in his shoes?

 

[myfoot123]

China workers here can enjoy minimum wage, same goes for S pass and EP holders if employers want to hire them but why Singaporean do not enjoy such priviledges?

 

[cleareyes]

China workers here can enjoy minimum wage, same goes for S pass and EP holders if employers want to hire them but why Singaporean do not enjoy such priviledges?

and how much is the minimum wages been paid to those holding S Passes and EPs?

 

[myfoot123]

and how much is the minimum wages been paid to those holding S Passes and EPs?

$1800 and $2500 respectively.

 

[cheongsimon]

Paying minimum wages to retarded, low productivity singaporeans is not the way to solve the poverty issue in Singapore.

A better solution is to cure their retardedness by re-training them so that their productivity can increase and thus earn more money for themselves.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

In recent years, there have been calls for the government to impose a minimum wage to help the low income workers who have seen their take home pay remaining stagnant for for over a decade, the latest coming from Mr Tan Kin Lian in a speech made at Hong Lim Park last Saturday.

A minimum wage is the lowest daily, hourly or monthly wage that employers may legally pay to employees or workers. Equivalently, it is the lowest wage at which workers may sell their labor.

Supporters of the minimum wage claim that it increases the workers’ earning power and protects them against exploitation by the employers. They argue that the widening income disparity between the rich and the poor in Singapore merits a relook at the minimum wage to prevent the low-income workers from being trapped in a vicious cycle of poverty.

Read full article here:

http://wayangparty.com/2008/12/09/a...-more-pain-than-relief-to-low-income-workers/

Apparently the writer is just too "theoretical" in writing this article.

Setting of minimum wage is a necessary step in an ultra-capitalist system whereby exploitation of cheap labour will become the norm. The main problem lies with the arbituary wage that is to be set.

If the minimum wage is set too high, it will hurt the workers as well as the businesses. If the wage is set too low, then it will become redundant. The most difficult task is how to set a FAIR minimum wage and this FAIR wage must be adjusted according to inflationary or deflationary pressures. But in this inflationary world, it is more likely to be adjusted to inflationary pressure most of the time.

There are many dimensions to this problem. In HK, minimum wage is set even for foreign maids. You may say it is detrimental to consumers' pockets but you must look at it from another perspective, a matured developed democratic society should not exploit workers, technically making them slaves to the others.

I would say that comparing to some of the Singaporeans here, foreign maids in HK are drawing a much higher pay! And they do not need to pay rent/mortgage, electricity bills, transport.. and such! They draw more than S$600 but some Singpaoreans are getting less than $500. It is absurd in Singapore's context, to have such exploitation of citizen-workforce in its own land.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Meng Seng

I find myself in the strange position of agreeing with Avantas. For me at least the minimum wage is a blunt populist instrument that does nothing to address fundamental economic issues. In Singapore's context this is made worse by the huge numbers of maids and foreign workers we have.

1. The min wage in Singapore will have to be applied equally to both local and foreigners. At a level that makes it meaningful for locals it mean increasing the costs for employers. In HK no one pays min wage for his or her maid, likewise witness the huge numbers of illegal domestic workers in the US from Mexico and Central America. Simple equation of demand supply and the willingness of poor immigrants or illegals to work for a lot lot less

2. The min wage in SG is a no brainer in view of the large numbers of domestic maids we have. Its a middle class luxury that few in the West.


Cheers


Locke

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Assuming they get better paid jobs after the re-training, that is the big question

Paying minimum wages to retarded, low productivity singaporeans is not the way to solve the poverty issue in Singapore.

A better solution is to cure their retardedness by re-training them so that their productivity can increase and thus earn more money for themselves.

 

[Avantas]

Yeah bro, I agree

Paying minimum wages to retarded, low productivity singaporeans is not the way to solve the poverty issue in Singapore.

A better solution is to cure their retardedness by re-training them so that their productivity can increase and thus earn more money for themselves.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Meng Seng

I find myself in the strange position of agreeing with Avantas. For me at least the minimum wage is a blunt populist instrument that does nothing to address fundamental economic issues. In Singapore's context this is made worse by the huge numbers of maids and foreign workers we have.

1. The min wage in Singapore will have to be applied equally to both local and foreigners. At a level that makes it meaningful for locals it mean increasing the costs for employers. In HK no one pays min wage for his or her maid, likewise witness the huge numbers of illegal domestic workers in the US from Mexico and Central America. Simple equation of demand supply and the willingness of poor immigrants or illegals to work for a lot lot less

2. The min wage in SG is a no brainer in view of the large numbers of domestic maids we have. Its a middle class luxury that few in the West.


Cheers


Locke

Dear Locke,

For your information, all Hong Kongers paid minimum wages for their foreign maids. That is the law of the land.

You are basing your judgment on the assumption that the market is perfect, there are equal footing, status and bargaining powers on both sides, the employers and employees. But in the real world, this is NOT the case, especially so in Singapore where the powers of the unions have been curbed for various reasons.

There is nothing WRONG in upping the minimum wages for ALL, including the Foreigners. It is only by upping the wages that we could entice the market to look for REAL TALENTS for the specified work force, upgrade the industries' value and such.

Just take for the foreign maids as an example. Due to the market distortion caused by the high maid levy, take home pay for foreign maids is only about half of what HK foreign maids take.

The end results? Singapore became the defacto "training ground" for foreign maids, before they get themselves re-employed in HK, Taiwan or the Middle East countries. Singapore employers have become suckers, paying as much as the HK or Taiwanese employers but get sub-standard, green and inexperienced foreign maids.

Without the minimum wage policy, price differentials due to all sorts of distortions will make us worse off. What we least want is market distortions by government levies, not by minimum wage. It is simple. What the employees care is what their take home pay is, not what the employers' cost of employing them.

Thus, I find it very strange and intriguing that Singaporeans like you, actually accepted the workers' or maids' levies but detest the minimum wage policy.

Minimum wage is definitely the lesser evil.

And there is nothing wrong to up the foreign wages as it could mean that employers may just consider employing local Singaporeans instead of foreigners if the cost to them are the same, right?


Goh Meng Seng

 

[locky2ky]

Dear Meng Seng

I find myself in the strange position of agreeing with Avantas. For me at least the minimum wage is a blunt populist instrument that does nothing to address fundamental economic issues. In Singapore's context this is made worse by the huge numbers of maids and foreign workers we have.

1. The min wage in Singapore will have to be applied equally to both local and foreigners. At a level that makes it meaningful for locals it mean increasing the costs for employers. In HK no one pays min wage for his or her maid, likewise witness the huge numbers of illegal domestic workers in the US from Mexico and Central America. Simple equation of demand supply and the willingness of poor immigrants or illegals to work for a lot lot less

2. The min wage in SG is a no brainer in view of the large numbers of domestic maids we have. Its a middle class luxury that few in the West.


Cheers


Locke

if min wage in sg is a no brainer, your argument that the huge numbers of illegal workers in the u.s. is related to min wage is also a no brainer.

 

[Zombie]

In HK, minimum wage is set even for foreign maids.

GMS

Don't make it sounds like minimum wage law is very common in HK.

Minimum wage law applies ONLY to foreign maids.

In HK, there is still no minimum wage law for the local workers, and some are earning lesser than the foreign maids.

 

[ArtBoon]

Why are those people earning less than foreign maids?

GMS

Don't make it sounds like minimum wage law is very common in HK.

Minimum wage law applies ONLY to foreign maids.

In HK, there is still no minimum wage law for the local workers, and some are earning lesser than the foreign maids.

 

[kakowi]

(1) Minimum wage is already practised for successful politicians who became MP, Ministers. Does that result in a lower wage cost for the civil service or higher productivity? What is productivity anyway? It is an arbitrary unit of measure - for example GDP growth. The assumption is that GDP growth benefits everyone. What if GDP growth is induced from monetizing the economy so that nothing is free anymore. Then GDP goes up but that is because everything must pay.


(2) I can understand the need to stir up something that is to close to the hearts of some folks, especially as a look at the household income figures may make you feel that it is politically advantageous. Besides people in that category are more concerned about their wages than abstract concepts.

Thus easy to earn votes.


(3) But this will lead to business costs increases. Greater automation if possible. More part-time workers during peak periods to cut off human resource costs in terms of benefits. Changes in processes to eliminate employment.

The only exception to that is when the workers hold the power to vote for their own salary and permanent tenure.


(4) There is a flaw in the argument that the income divide can be closed by minimum wage policy. Income divide, in singapore's case, appears to be a deliberate trade-off in the vision of our leaders to make singapore a haven for the wealthy, supported by a class of expert talents not found in singapore. If the rest of the singaporeans managed to catch up, well and good. If not, at least withholding their cpf will mean that they will not burden them whilst they enjoy their wealth and champagne parties.

Thus the issue should be resolved at that level. LKY did that very well to the extent that under his rule, the income divide was minimal, with a large and prosperous middle class.


(5) Finally there was a post in the other forum regarding the amount of debt singapore has. I do not know how to interpret those figures. But there are three aspects:

(i) singapore used to have no debts at all. Why now? Are these really debts or are they cpf? What then is the net level of borrowings?

(ii) singapore does not engage in any massive development work that requires borrowings. Most things are funded by the private sector with the public sector providing the direction and vision. So why the need for such borrowings?

(iii) the public sector in singapore as well as its linked companies are well-run and showing surplus/profits, so why the need for borrowings.
​

These issues of vision and singapore's net financial position may not interest the low-income voter as much as his minimum salary.

But it is hoped that if you are elected, you will consider such additional aspects.

 

[kakowi]

Don't make it sounds like minimum wage law is very common in HK.

Minimum wage law applies ONLY to foreign maids.

I recall that i did hear something like this too. And it sounds reasonable, given that Hong Kong is a champion for free entreprise and the application of minimum wage to foreign maids is probably a concession to another government.

Imagine that after the public pressure exerted by TKL, the singapore government agreed to minimum wages but stipulated that it must only be applied to foreign maids.

Whose rise in wages are paid by their owners who are voting in the Election.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear GMS

I refer you to the following CNN report with regards to Hong Kong and the enforcement of its min wage for maids. The fact as shown by illegal construction workers and domestic maids in the US is that there are some jobs that the citizens of a highly developed country will not want to do at a certain price. The dirty, dangerous , domesticated ones or DDD. The maids levy concession is SGD 190 plus a wage of say even $400 SGD would bring it to $590 which is still less than the level required of a min wage in Singapore.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that income wage supplements, more susidized health care etc should replacement a min wage proposal in raising wages of Singaporeans.



Locke


Hong Kong faces maids embargo
Thursday, March 6, 2003 Posted: 0019 GMT ( 8:19 AM HKT)



Hundreds of domestic helpers have taken to the streets of Hong Kong protesting the wage cut.
Story Tools


MANILA, Philippines (Reuters) -- The Philippines temporarily banned its nationals from taking jobs as maids in Hong Kong on Wednesday after the Chinese territory cut the minimum wage for foreign domestic help.

President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo called on Hong Kong to reconsider its decision to slash the HK$3,670 (US$470) minimum monthly wage for foreign maids by HK$400.

"The decision of the government of Hong Kong Special Administrative Region to slash the minimum wage for foreign domestic workers in the territory is unfair and unjust," Arroyo said.

The Philippines provides most of Hong Kong's 240,000 foreign maids, followed in order by Thailand, Indonesia and the Indian subcontinent.

Foreign maids, who free Chinese women from their homes to join the workforce, are among the lowest-paid employees in Hong Kong and work up to 15 hours a day.

Many send most or all of their earnings back home to support their families, contributing significantly to the Philippines' balance of payments.

Hong Kong, battling to curb its gaping budget deficit, last week imposed a HK$400 monthly levy on employers of foreign maids from October and cut the minimum wage of domestic help hired from April by the same amount.

"Really unfair"

Arroyo said she had ordered the Department of Foreign Affairs to forge a coalition with other countries affected by the wage cut in Hong Kong.



Filipinas queue up at a Manila recruitment agency for jobs that will take them overseas.
Hong Kong, a former British colony that returned to Chinese rule in 1997, said it had not yet received the notification from the Philippines but defended its move.

"In terms of wages and employment conditions for foreign maids in Hong Kong, we believe we're being very reasonable," Hong Kong Secretary for Economic Development and Labour Stephen Ip told reporters.

"Of course, at the end of the day, it is for the maids to decide whether to work in Hong Kong or somewhere else."

Reaction was mixed among domestic helpers in Hong Kong.

"We are against any banning of processing of papers for Filipinos because the government has not offered us any alternative in the event that we cannot go to Hong Kong," Connie Bragas-Regalado, spokeswoman for Asian Migrant Coordinating Body, told Hong Kong radio.

But an unidentified maid who has worked in Hong Kong for more than two years told local television: "She (Arroyo) has the right to make a decision like that. It's really unfair ... because our salary is only HK$3,670."

Many maids in Hong Kong do not even get the minimum wage. The government does not strictly enforce the mandatory wage level and maids do not report their employers for fear they will lose their jobs or be sent home.

Hundreds of maids took to the streets of Hong Kong on Sunday to protest against the pay cut.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Locke,

The point is about whether there is a minimum wage, not about whether it is enforced.

The truth is, there is a minimum wage policy. Only those "new maids" that are employed may be reaped off by those employers who do not pay according to law. That is very small percentage.

The reason being that when the contract is up for renewal, the maids would have learned more about the minimum wages from other maids. If there are complains made by the maids to the authorities, it will be enforced.

You are basing your comment on a news report with certain agenda. That is not accurate at all.

Goh Meng Seng

Dear GMS

I refer you to the following CNN report with regards to Hong Kong and the enforcement of its min wage for maids. The fact as shown by illegal construction workers and domestic maids in the US is that there are some jobs that the citizens of a highly developed country will not want to do at a certain price. The dirty, dangerous , domesticated ones or DDD. The maids levy concession is SGD 190 plus a wage of say even $400 SGD would bring it to $590 which is still less than the level required of a min wage in Singapore.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that income wage supplements, more susidized health care etc should replacement a min wage proposal in raising wages of Singaporeans.



Locke


Hong Kong faces maids embargo
Thursday, March 6, 2003 Posted: 0019 GMT ( 8:19 AM HKT)



Hundreds of domestic helpers have taken to the streets of Hong Kong protesting the wage cut.
Story Tools


MANILA, Philippines (Reuters) -- The Philippines temporarily banned its nationals from taking jobs as maids in Hong Kong on Wednesday after the Chinese territory cut the minimum wage for foreign domestic help.

President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo called on Hong Kong to reconsider its decision to slash the HK$3,670 (US$470) minimum monthly wage for foreign maids by HK$400.

"The decision of the government of Hong Kong Special Administrative Region to slash the minimum wage for foreign domestic workers in the territory is unfair and unjust," Arroyo said.

The Philippines provides most of Hong Kong's 240,000 foreign maids, followed in order by Thailand, Indonesia and the Indian subcontinent.

Foreign maids, who free Chinese women from their homes to join the workforce, are among the lowest-paid employees in Hong Kong and work up to 15 hours a day.

Many send most or all of their earnings back home to support their families, contributing significantly to the Philippines' balance of payments.

Hong Kong, battling to curb its gaping budget deficit, last week imposed a HK$400 monthly levy on employers of foreign maids from October and cut the minimum wage of domestic help hired from April by the same amount.

"Really unfair"

Arroyo said she had ordered the Department of Foreign Affairs to forge a coalition with other countries affected by the wage cut in Hong Kong.



Filipinas queue up at a Manila recruitment agency for jobs that will take them overseas.
Hong Kong, a former British colony that returned to Chinese rule in 1997, said it had not yet received the notification from the Philippines but defended its move.

"In terms of wages and employment conditions for foreign maids in Hong Kong, we believe we're being very reasonable," Hong Kong Secretary for Economic Development and Labour Stephen Ip told reporters.

"Of course, at the end of the day, it is for the maids to decide whether to work in Hong Kong or somewhere else."

Reaction was mixed among domestic helpers in Hong Kong.

"We are against any banning of processing of papers for Filipinos because the government has not offered us any alternative in the event that we cannot go to Hong Kong," Connie Bragas-Regalado, spokeswoman for Asian Migrant Coordinating Body, told Hong Kong radio.

But an unidentified maid who has worked in Hong Kong for more than two years told local television: "She (Arroyo) has the right to make a decision like that. It's really unfair ... because our salary is only HK$3,670."

Many maids in Hong Kong do not even get the minimum wage. The government does not strictly enforce the mandatory wage level and maids do not report their employers for fear they will lose their jobs or be sent home.

Hundreds of maids took to the streets of Hong Kong on Sunday to protest against the pay cut.