Putting Spurs deeper into PAP's thick Hides

[elephanto]

Regarding employment discrimination, I would like to shall this observation:-

I believe some of our Malay fellow citizens perceive that job discrimination genuinely exists from their personal experience as well as ads that require Mandrain speaking e.g. I do not know whether this is naked prejudice or a market requirement - but efforts must be ceaseless to create fairplay whenever possible.

But as a result of historical development, certain sectors & jobs have stereotyped job racial profile preferences , I suspect.

I know of instances of suitably qualified Chinese, yet are not accepted in certain positions in certain sectors. Note in fast food delivery/courier delivery (male), stat board admin positions e.g. CPF Board, NLB (female) - there seems to be a disproportionate number of Malay/Indian employees. Are these positions 'reserved' for Malays such that given equal candidates, a Malay prospect is preferred over a Chinese e.g.

I know of no way to prove the above. Just my observation, any comments, forummers ?

 

[Sideswipe]

Mixed member proportional representation
- 1 Vote for Candidate ( Plurality ), 1 Vote for Party ( PR )

PR suit fairness & democracy principles where the number of seats will mirror the overall proportion of votes received and it best reflect the voters mandate unlike plurality.

voters can judge the performance of the political parties & their party list nominees and then vote which directly reflect the overall support of the political party.

一人一票，票票等值
One Man One Vote, Every Vote Count.

 

[Hawkeye1819]

SDP has two Malays in its CEC: Mohd Isa and Jufrie Mahmood.

The other non-Chinese members of its CEC are: Gandhi Ambala, Jeffrey George.

Would say that is a pretty diverse CEC. The youth wing is even more diverse.

Scro, the chap thinks he can only 'win' on subjective stuff and live on lies. The last time I challenged him on facts, he ran away. He had exemplified SDP as a multiracial party and I pointed out that it had only 1 Malay.

 

[Hawkeye1819]

Didn't really bother to read posts by yellow_people as the tone itself put me off. Glad to see you chaps have dissected him like a slice to tuna belly.

I think its wise not to engage anyone in this manner. He has not returned the courtesy accorded to him. There must be a level of decorum if serious discussion is to take place. I have no time for racist in this side or on the other side of the fence.

 

[Queen Seok Duk]

I don't totally disagree, but just want to point 2 facts:

1. Even elected MPs may not be reelected. For the opp, Ling and Cheo are examples.

2. Many don't know that NCMP is elected. Yes not even TOC chaps. Go read the gazette. It says 'I hereby declare XXXXXX elected Non-Constituency Member of Parliament. Tan Boon Huat, Returning Officer. Date: XXXXXX'

Yes, I'm fully aware that Ling and Cheo were not re-elected. When I say NCMP is less likely to be re-elected, I'm in no way suggesting that elected MPs will be re-elected. The point is "real chance to serve". As elected MP, you've a Town Council to run, and your management skills will be put to test. CST shows he can run the TC as well as PAP; LTK too. So PAP could no longer claim that only PAP can run the TC.

As NCMP, you're as impotent as any other opposition voices. PAP will be happy to have you 'raise questions' in Parliament. Over your tenure as NCMP, you would have shown that "oppositions talk and talk but couldn't do anything". As NCMP, you speak without authority.

 

[sinren67]

Regarding employment discrimination, I would like to shall this observation:-

I believe some of our Malay fellow citizens perceive that job discrimination genuinely exists from their personal experience as well as ads that require Mandrain speaking e.g. I do not know whether this is naked prejudice or a market requirement - but efforts must be ceaseless to create fairplay whenever possible.

But as a result of historical development, certain sectors & jobs have stereotyped job racial profile preferences , I suspect.

I know of instances of suitably qualified Chinese, yet are not accepted in certain positions in certain sectors. Note in fast food delivery/courier delivery (male), stat board admin positions e.g. CPF Board, NLB (female) - lyin there seems to be a disproportionate number of Malay/Indian employees. Are these positions 'reserved' for Malays such that given equal candidates, a Malay prospect is preferred over a Chinese e.g.

I know of no way to prove the above. Just my observation, any comments, forummers ?

Me is 33.3%, but i dun disagree having jobs reserve for Malay, esp in stat board and gov agencies. We all know that in private sectors, many firms dun hire Malay, esp when there is a need to work in front line that need to speak mandarin.

 

[aurvandil]

Regarding employment discrimination, I would like to shall this observation:-

I believe some of our Malay fellow citizens perceive that job discrimination genuinely exists from their personal experience as well as ads that require Mandrain speaking e.g. I do not know whether this is naked prejudice or a market requirement - but efforts must be ceaseless to create fairplay whenever possible.

The discrimination is not imaginary or perceived. It is very real. Goh Meng Seng was reflecting this anger when he wrote about how the Malay community was angry.

But as a result of historical development, certain sectors & jobs have stereotyped job racial profile preferences , I suspect.

I know of instances of suitably qualified Chinese, yet are not accepted in certain positions in certain sectors. Note in fast food delivery/courier delivery (male), stat board admin positions e.g. CPF Board, NLB (female) - there seems to be a disproportionate number of Malay/Indian employees. Are these positions 'reserved' for Malays such that given equal candidates, a Malay prospect is preferred over a Chinese e.g.

These jobs are not “reserved” for Singaporean Malays. Rather we see a disproportionate number of Singaporean Malays in such jobs because of the historical reasons you mentioned earlier. As a community, the Malay community had lagged the other communities with regard to the education. As such, a disproportionate number of Malays found work in such low paying positions. While the Malay community has made significant improvements in education, the legacy of those who did not receive a good education remains.

Before the FT policy was liberalized to the extent of the past 5 years, such Malay families could struggle by. However with the introduction of so many “cheaper, faster and better” FT, the overwhelming preference of business has been to recruit FT rather than Singaporean Malays. Hence my earlier postings of how the Malay community has probably been hardest hit by the FT policy. Other than employment, the racial nature of the FT policy has also affected the asset values of Singaporean Malays. While they pay HDB the same amount for their “subsidized” HDB flats, Malay flats are much less valuable on the resale market because of the Ethnic Integration Policy and the absence of large scale Malay immigration from Malaysia and Indonesia.

The problems faced by the Malay community are not unique to just their community. These problems are faced by all communities in Singapore. The Malay community has however been the hardest hit given their historical circumstances. As a strong and proud community, I don’t think the Malays are asking for special privileges or hand-outs. Rather what they want is an end to these failed PAP policies which are affecting ALL Singaporeans so that their community can have a reasonable chance to grow.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Scroobal,

I guess I will listen to your advice here.

Yellow People is not contended with PAP's GRC system. What he wants is to have a Malay dominated constituency so that his racially based rhetorics could find support and make him the "legitimate leader" of his community.

He is grossly mistaken. Anyway, if you follow his reasoning, you will understand where he is coming from and most probably, what's his agenda.

Goh Meng Seng

I think its wise not to engage anyone in this manner. He has not returned the courtesy accorded to him. There must be a level of decorum if serious discussion is to take place. I have no time for racist in this side or on the other side of the fence.

This is the reason why PAP does not engage in discussion with anyone except those they invite. This chap is taking you on because there is no one else who is prepared to discuss with him.

He still does not get it - Minorities are courting the PAP and then they blame the others for not pushing their interest. This chap genuinely thinks that PAP created GRC for him.

I am seriously disappointed as I attempted to clear the decks of racists so that a meaningful discussions on minority grievances can be had. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that they face discrimination and the racial policies implemented does not allow nation building - its clearly silos the races. I hope we get minorities in this forum that can lead serious discussions.

 

[sampierre]

Yes, I'm fully aware that Ling and Cheo were not re-elected. When I say NCMP is less likely to be re-elected, I'm in no way suggesting that elected MPs will be re-elected. The point is "real chance to serve". As elected MP, you've a Town Council to run, and your management skills will be put to test. CST shows he can run the TC as well as PAP; LTK too. So PAP could no longer claim that only PAP can run the TC.

As NCMP, you're as impotent as any other opposition voices. PAP will be happy to have you 'raise questions' in Parliament. Over your tenure as NCMP, you would have shown that "oppositions talk and talk but couldn't do anything". As NCMP, you speak without authority.

EXACTLY MY SENTIMENTS, QUEEN.
I WOULD ALSO WANT TO ADD THAT NOWADAYS, AN MP DOES NOT HAVE A LOT OF TIME TO SPEAK IN PARLIAMENT, UNLIKE IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS OF THE EARLY 1960'S WHEN DR LEE SIEW CHOH COULD SPEAK FOR HOURS WITHOUT EARNING THE IRE OF THE PARLIAMENT SPEAKER.

GOH MENG SENG,
I REALLY HOPE YOU ARE NOT SO DESPERATE THAT YOU MUST EMBRACE THE NCMP SCHEME SO THE YOU COULD SEND YOUR PARTY'S MALAY CANDIDATE TO PARLIAMENT AS A BACKDOOR MP.

FOR GOD'S SAKE, PLEASE DO NOT THROW IN THE TOWEL EVEN BEFORE THE ELECTORAL BATTLE HAS BEGUN!! YOU WOULD BE DOING YOUR PARTY AND THE OPPOSITION, AND OPPOSITION SUPPORTERS A GREAT DISSERVICE!!

HOW CAN YOU BE EFFECTIVE IN "PUTTING SPURS INTO PAP THICK HIDES" IF YOU ASPIRE TO BE ONLY A NON-CONSTITUENCY MP" ????
PLEASE GET OFF YOUR "HIGHFALUTIN IDEAL" HORSE AND START THINKING ABOUT HOW YOU CAN ALSO SERVE TAMPINES VOTERS ON THE GROUND.


It's interesting to note that the Reform Party led by KJ has started a free legal advice clinic in order to serve low-income Singaporeans.

 

[Debonerman]

Dear Scroobal,

He is grossly mistaken. Anyway, if you follow his reasoning, you will understand where he is coming from and most probably, what's his agenda.

Goh Meng Seng

Bumiputra policy? A birthright? That's all I had been reading, though the fluff!

 

[yellow_people]

Scro, the chap thinks he can only 'win' on subjective stuff and live on lies. The last time I challenged him on facts, he ran away. He had exemplified SDP as a multiracial party and I pointed out that it had only 1 Malay.

The fact is that ALL parties except SPP has 1 Malay CEC member. SPP has 2. His facts are totally gonecase. Never even checked.

I think you need to re-check your facts. SDP has 12 members in its CEC out of which there are 2 Malays and 2 Indians. It seems a fair representation of ethnic diversity and testimony that minorities will join political parties. They would just be extra careful not to join the wrong ones.

WP and NSP has zero Indians and 1 Malay in their CEC each.

 

[yellow_people]

Regarding employment discrimination, I would like to shall this observation:-

I believe some of our Malay fellow citizens perceive that job discrimination genuinely exists from their personal experience as well as ads that require Mandrain speaking e.g. I do not know whether this is naked prejudice or a market requirement - but efforts must be ceaseless to create fairplay whenever possible.

But as a result of historical development, certain sectors & jobs have stereotyped job racial profile preferences , I suspect.

I know of instances of suitably qualified Chinese, yet are not accepted in certain positions in certain sectors. Note in fast food delivery/courier delivery (male), stat board admin positions e.g. CPF Board, NLB (female) - there seems to be a disproportionate number of Malay/Indian employees. Are these positions 'reserved' for Malays such that given equal candidates, a Malay prospect is preferred over a Chinese e.g.

I know of no way to prove the above. Just my observation, any comments, forummers ?

I don't believe jobs in the public sector are reserved for any ethnic group per se. They may have an unsaid of ratio system where if there were 10 jobs available, they would try and ensure that at least 2 or 3 are taken up by minority candidates.

Your observation of there being more minorities in the civil service compared to private sector like the teaching profession and the ones you quoted are correct as most of the Indian or Malay graduate can be found in the public sector as not many even if they so desire are given an opportunity in the private sector particularly the Malays.

 

[elephanto]

The problems faced by the Malay community are not unique to just their community. These problems are faced by all communities in Singapore. The Malay community has however been the hardest hit given their historical circumstances. As a strong and proud community, I don’t think the Malays are asking for special privileges or hand-outs. Rather what they want is an end to these failed PAP policies which are affecting ALL Singaporeans so that their community can have a reasonable chance to grow.

very thought-provoking comments.

I believe this is THE HISTORICAL DILEMMA as a result of Raja not making a stand against LKY in the interest of Party Unity or whatever personal loyalty reasons.

That is why Raja's National Pledge aspirations remain aspirations. Nation building is not pegged by Raja's ideals. Rather LKY's creed of sticking to the 'realpolitick' - the fixed belief that primal tug of race is ever-present & best tapped to design communal based self-help groups & eventually permeated the thinking to many other areas.

There is some efficiency merits to that approach - but the greater loss is to abandon the use of socio-economic yardsticks to help the poor, the ill-educated, the delinquent.

Just to gain of some efficiency using the MENDAKI-CDAC-SINDA approach, the opportunity to blunt racial stereotypes & blur racial approach to education, housing etc is lost.

50 years of social engineering & nation building .... to painstakingly forged aspirations into reality.

No real decent effort made because LKY's credo prevail over Raja's - respectfully enshrined as 'optimistic - idealistic'.

So then, all the extraneous tinkering such as coming up with GRC etc

By pursuing Raja's creed to its logical conclusion, we may never need to be a melting pot & nobody need to give up their respective cultural heritage.

But I am pretty sure we would have been a more 'united people', genuinely 'regardless of race, language or religion'.

 

[yellow_people]

He still does not get it - Minorities are courting the PAP and then they blame the others for not pushing their interest. This chap genuinely thinks that PAP created GRC for him.

For the record I am against the GRC system. Apart from bloating parliamemt members it was afterall designed to tilt the scales in favor of the PAP and you don't need a rocket scientist to figure this out. However I am also wary of political parties that may succeed the PAP to tweak the system even further. There is no need to ensure minority representation in parliament. This to me is BS and a harbinger for a far worse system then the one present under the PAP.

The truth is often simple. If the political parties are sincere about democracy they would easily revert back to the FPTP (first past the post). Apart from there being less MPs and a lesser burden on the taxpayer, I can assure you minority representation would be there and this is one area where proportional rep does not need to be instituted. JBJ was living proof that the system did work and will work.

Opposition parties should instead talk about instituting fair employment practices rather than ensuring ethnic representation. At least it would win them more support and not just from the Chinese.

 

[yellow_people]

very thought-provoking comments.

I believe this is THE HISTORICAL DILEMMA as a result of Raja not making a stand against LKY in the interest of Party Unity or whatever personal loyalty reasons.

That is why Raja's National Pledge aspirations remain aspirations. Nation building is not pegged by Raja's ideals. Rather LKY's creed of sticking to the 'realpolitick' - the fixed belief that primal tug of race is ever-present & best tapped to design communal based self-help groups & eventually permeated the thinking to many other areas.

There is some efficiency merits to that approach - but the greater loss is to abandon the use of socio-economic yardsticks to help the poor, the ill-educated, the delinquent.

Just to gain of some efficiency using the MENDAKI-CDAC-SINDA approach, the opportunity to blunt racial stereotypes & blur racial approach to education, housing etc is lost.

50 years of social engineering & nation building .... to painstakingly forged aspirations into reality.

No real decent effort made because LKY's credo prevail over Raja's - respectfully enshrined as 'optimistic - idealistic'.

So then, all the extraneous tinkering such as coming up with GRC etc

By pursuing Raja's creed to its logical conclusion, we may never need to be a melting pot & nobody need to give up their respective cultural heritage.

But I am pretty sure we would have been a more 'united people', genuinely 'regardless of race, language or religion'.

Rajarathnam did make a stand. He spoke out again ethnic segregation and believed it would do irreparable harm to the country. Unfortunately his voice was the only voice of reason left as all the radicals had already jumped on the "silent majority" bandwagon.

Much of the ethnic and racial problems only surfaced after segregation by one's race.

 

[Robert Half]

Yes, I'm fully aware that Ling and Cheo were not re-elected. When I say NCMP is less likely to be re-elected, I'm in no way suggesting that elected MPs will be re-elected. The point is "real chance to serve". As elected MP, you've a Town Council to run, and your management skills will be put to test. CST shows he can run the TC as well as PAP; LTK too. So PAP could no longer claim that only PAP can run the TC.

As NCMP, you're as impotent as any other opposition voices. PAP will be happy to have you 'raise questions' in Parliament. Over your tenure as NCMP, you would have shown that "oppositions talk and talk but couldn't do anything". As NCMP, you speak without authority.

Maybe Perspective himself like to become a NCMP and he can draw a small NCMP allowance so that he can 'raise questions' in Parliament & do nothing.

Just joking Happy Tiger Year

 

[3_M]

In sales line it good to be honest and sincere as that will earn you much goodwill. But politics are necessary evils and being honest and sincere are counter-productive.

The keywords are"political correctness".

It a matter of fact that political competition will push the ruling party to work harder, that goes without saying. For a start it good for GMS to highlight how political contest have push the gov to be more responsive and cited the various policies U-turn the gov made since opposition have indicated their readiness to contest in MBT's GRC.

But it unwise for GMS to proclaim that so long as the people benefits, it okay he loses and full-stop (this only can be said when you lost the election not before election). . GMS, you should really push further to convince people that it to their greater benefit to have more oppositions elected. and how there will be more policies U-turn if that happen. That the only way to make the ruling party sit -up and listen to the vice of the people.

Just my 2 cents,

 

[Perspective]

SDP has two Malays in its CEC: Mohd Isa and Jufrie Mahmood.

The other non-Chinese members of its CEC are: Gandhi Ambala, Jeffrey George.

Would say that is a pretty diverse CEC. The youth wing is even more diverse.

When someone wants to talk about multiracialism he has to talk about both Malays and Indians, not just Malays only or Indians only. In that sense SDP has to its credit the highest number of Indians, maybe even higher than national average, but one or 2 Malays still means an underrepresentation.

Anyone can see that Mohd Isa isn't Malay but Indian. You can argue that they are Muslims. My own guess is he's Pakistan origin. But that is different from Malay. There are cultural differences.

And why the chap extols the PAP when it has only 1 Malay is beyond me. That is the same as NSP.

Better still, NSP's Indian-Muslim new CEC member Abdul Rasheed was a defector from SDP. What's the argument about one being attractive to minorities and one not.

I agree the youth wing is really diverse, but opposition youth wings are known to have very high turnover. Let's see if the chaps make it to the CEC or last long enough.

 

[yellow_people]

Anyone can see that Mohd Isa isn't Malay but Indian. You can argue that they are Muslims. My own guess is he's Pakistan origin. But that is different from Malay. There are cultural differences.

Mohd Isa is not a Pakistani nor is he 100% Indian. He's of Malay-Malayali origin like Mahathir. Zainal Rasheed has Indian blood in him as well but he's considered a Malay by many. You don't have to be a 100% pure bred Malay to qualify.

Just as many believe Indonesia to be made up of majority Malays when in fact they 85 mil are Javanese.

 

[scroobal]

Ask any Malay - he is not considered a Malay but a DKK. Perspective is right. When it comes to these things, he knows the characters that are involved.

That's the reason why the Javanese who are indeed of Malay stock want to retain the race in their NRIC as Javanese. The same with the Boyanese.

Mohd Isa is not a Pakistani nor is he 100% Indian. He's of Malay-Malayali origin like Mahathir. Zainal Rasheed has Indian blood in him as well but he's considered a Malay by many. You don't have to be a 100% pure bred Malay to qualify.

Just as many believe Indonesia to be made up of majority Malays when in fact they 85 mil are Javanese.