Putting Spurs deeper into PAP's thick Hides

[IR123]

SINCE GOH MENG SENG HAS SAID THAT THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THE NON CONSTITUENCY MP SCHEME, MY GUESS IS THAT HE WOULD BE VERY HAPPY TO GARNER 35% OF THE TAMPINES GRC VOTES SO THAT HE CAN QUALIFY AS ONE OF THE 9 BEST LOSERS TO ENTER PASRLIAMENT THRU THE BACK DOOR. DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK THAT MARBORO TAN IS GOING TO BE WORRIED ABOUT SUCH OPPOSITION CANDIDATES??

I HAVE ZERO RESPECT FOR OPPOSITION POLITICIANS WHO ARE HAPPY JUST TO BE NCMPs !!

thanks for the reminder

you can actually get an opposition into parliament without voting for him

food for thought

 

[yellow_people]

GMS,

You seems to have contradicted yourself on this issue.

WHY ON EARTH SHOULD THE PAP GOVT CHANGE THE CURRENT FIRST-PASS-THE- POST PARLIAMENTARY SYSTEM TO A PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION MULTI-PARTY SYSTEM WHEN OPPOSITION CANDIDATES LIKE YOU ARE HAPPY TO EMBRACE THE NON-CONSTITUENCY MP SCHEME THAT THE PAP HAS DEVISED SO THAT THE PAPAYAS CAN STAY IN POWER FOREVER???

PLEASE WAKE UP!!

I believe Ah Seng is talking about his vision for the next decade which at the onset looks scary. Let's be patient and hear him out. I for one would like to give him the benefit of the doubt as he is after all the Secretary-General of NSP and find out more details about how his vision for "proportional representation" will look like.

 

[scroobal]

With or without GMS or his vision, the PAP is not going to towards proportional representation. Its a worthless point to raise in the first instance. This is something even a political newbie can figure quite quickly. What made you think that they would even consider proportional rep in the first place?

WHY ON EARTH SHOULD THE PAP GOVT CHANGE THE CURRENT FIRST-PASS-THE- POST PARLIAMENTARY SYSTEM TO A PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION MULTI-PARTY SYSTEM WHEN OPPOSITION CANDIDATES LIKE YOU ARE HAPPY TO EMBRACE THE NON-CONSTITUENCY MP SCHEME THAT THE PAP HAS DEVISED SO THAT THE PAPAYAS CAN STAY IN POWER FOREVER???

 

[yellow_people]

With or without GMS or his vision, the PAP is not going to towards proportional representation. Its a worthless point to raise in the first instance. This is something even a political newbie can figure quite quickly. What made you think that they would even consider proportional rep in the first place?

The PAP will never go towards proportional representation as we have discussed this only yesterday. So this is a moot point. The concern is what happens should the PAP be booted out of power and people like GMS and NSP/WP are in charge?

Would the proportional representation mean that 75% of parliamentary seats are reserved solely for the ethnic Chinese thereby ensuring their political dominance and hegemony?

This is what Ah Seng and his NSP needs to clarify.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Scroobal,

Actually I disagree. PAP may not be considering proportional representation right now because they are the monopoly.

Ironically, it will be the their own design of GRC that would force them into proportional representation. I wonder how many ministers PAP could afford to lose if the GRC fortress starts to fall in with domino effect. 1? 2? 3? or 4?

They could not dismantle the whole GRC system without destroying their own creditability. The only thing they could do is to modify it into a proportional representative system to save their ministers from total annihilation.

Goh Meng Seng

With or without GMS or his vision, the PAP is not going to towards proportional representation. Its a worthless point to raise in the first instance. This is something even a political newbie can figure quite quickly. What made you think that they would even consider proportional rep in the first place?

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

The PAP will never go towards proportional representation as we have discussed this only yesterday. So this is a moot point. The concern is what happens should the PAP be booted out of power and people like GMS and NSP/WP are in charge?

Would the proportional representation mean that 75% of parliamentary seats are reserved solely for the ethnic Chinese thereby ensuring their political dominance and hegemony?

This is what Ah Seng and his NSP needs to clarify.

There are many ways to configure a proportional representation system. There are many examples in the world for us to study and modify. We will come to it when we cross the bridge.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[sampierre]

Moderator,

I am not a political newbie. In fact, I'd been observing Singapore politics way back in the late 70's when I was still in secondary school. I just want Mr Goh Meng Seng to take himself seriously as a candidate in the upcoming GE. Only then, he has a good chance of beating Marboro Tan and his gang in Tampines GRC.

 

[Debonerman]

Proportional representation system is acceptable to the PAP if only Low Thia Kiang and gang are allowed to run exclusively. No answer? I think that settles the question. Why, they may even don all white!

 

[yellow_people]

There are many ways to configure a proportional representation system. There are many examples in the world for us to study and modify. We will come to it when we cross the bridge.

Goh Meng Seng

Since you brought up your vision for proportional representation and plan to represent the residents of Tampines I think you need to clarify once and for all what it involves. This is dangerous ground you are treading on GMS. Minority citizens at Tampines had better take note exactly what you are voting for.

 

[yellow_people]

Ironically, it will be the their own design of GRC that would force them into proportional representation. I wonder how many ministers PAP could afford to lose if the GRC fortress starts to fall in with domino effect. 1? 2? 3? or 4?

If anyone is having trouble with the GRC system it would be the NSP and WP at present. The GRC which is mild compared to your radical proportional rep, ensures that minority rights remain within the mainstream politics. For instance NSP can't compete let alone win Tampines GRC with an "All Ah Beng" lineup. You would need to stand shoulder to shoulder with either an Indian or Malay or both candidates.

Your proportional rep system is similar to 19th century Jim Crow laws. You might as well wear all white robe complete with a white cone over your heads and stand on the soapbox in Tampines. At least we can have a spectacle and a good laugh.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Since you brought up your vision for proportional representation and plan to represent the residents of Tampines I think you need to clarify once and for all what it involves. This is dangerous ground you are treading on GMS. Minority citizens at Tampines had better take note exactly what you are voting for.

There are proportional representation systems that takes care of minority interests as well. New Zealand's system is one of them.

Systems are built by people and I guess it is up to us to come to a consensus on how it should work.

It may be my vision for that to happen in Singapore but right now, it is premature to campaign on this issue when opposition doesn't even have a critical mass in parliament. But what I can foresee is that ultimately a proportional representation system will evolve in Singapore.

This is one of the more viable options for us. One of the reasons why minority interests have been neglected all this while is because there lack a competition in parliament between the minority MPs. This could be resolved when a proportional representation system ensures that there will be some opposition minority MPs in parliament.

Some people argue that we should dismantle the GRC system altogether. You should actually be more worried about that option. Although in the past, there are minority candidates, both PAP and opposition, elected into parliament via the single seats system, but there is no guarantee that it would be so. The GRC did provide a basic guarantee that certain number of minority representation would be present, but this is at the expense of a more balanced political development for Singapore as a whole.

Proportional representation could address both issues under the system.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[yellow_people]

There are proportional representation systems that takes care of minority interests as well. New Zealand's system is one of them.

Is there a lack of adequate minority candidates in parliament today? The GRC system guarantees that minority representation exists in parliament and that too in the mainstream body. At last count there are a quite a number of minority MPs in parliament.

Systems are built by people and I guess it is up to us to come to a consensus on how it should work.

Majority rules. Just like a group of Chinese extremists that attempted to use that as a pretext to change the National Anthem to Chinese.

It may be my vision for that to happen in Singapore but right now, it is premature to campaign on this issue when opposition doesn't even have a critical mass in parliament. But what I can foresee is that ultimately a proportional representation system will evolve in Singapore.

This is one of the more viable options for us. One of the reasons why minority interests have been neglected all this while is because there lack a competition in parliament between the minority MPs. This could be resolved when a proportional representation system ensures that there will be some opposition minority MPs in parliament.

What makes you believe minority interests have been neglected and that too because of lack of competition? Can you quote some specific examples?

NSP does not have a view on HDB ethnic quota either. In fact NSP has never touched based on minority issues before. Certainly not you GMS, even when you stood on the WP ticket in Aljunied. It appear incredulous to me that you all of a sudden have minority concerns at heart.

Or is this really an issue to remove the pesky minority rep in GRC that is at present limiting your platform?

Some people argue that we should dismantle the GRC system altogether. You should actually be more worried about that option. Although in the past, there are minority candidates, both PAP and opposition, elected into parliament via the single seats system, but there is no guarantee that it would be so. The GRC did provide a basic guarantee that certain number of minority representation would be present, but this is at the expense of a more balanced political development for Singapore as a whole.

Proportional representation could address both issues under the system.

Goh Meng Seng

I am not too concerned with the present GRC system. At best we can alway revert to the FPTP system. Lest you forget, it was a minority candidate that broke the PAP's absolute rule in Anson. I wonder what JBJ would think about your hare-brained scheme if he were alive today.

GMS, i know you are a dishonest individual but here is a piece of advice for your own good. Be honest when you say you want an proportional rep for your own selfish interest. At least have the decency not to hide behind the minority and claim its in his best interest. Shame on you!

 

[scroobal]

No politician will answer a question like that. Minorities have been neutered by the PAP when they introduced HDB racial quotas. Tactically any mention of perks, concerns etc expressed for the minorities may cost votes from the majority. The fact that this forum and nearly every forum has a few rabid racist and bigots is a clear indication they are out there. Its not that the minorities lack racists and bigots but they are smaller in numbers and especially the fact the minorities would be more aware of what racial bigotry does.

Put it another way - even if GMS or any politician is a champion of minority rights, that fact will not revealed when the voters that make the difference are the Chinese. Clearly the PAP has disenfranchised the minorities. Its one reason why I am truly puzzled when I see minorities joining or supporting PAP.

Would the proportional representation mean that 75% of parliamentary seats are reserved solely for the ethnic Chinese thereby ensuring their political dominance and hegemony?

This is what Ah Seng and his NSP needs to clarify.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I don't think you even know how a proportional representation system works. Lest how a system works for your community.

GRC system did not work for the minority community's interests, else you will not face the kind of problems you are facing right now for your community. The element of competition is totally lacking and without that, don't pretend that you will get a better deal.

Having a number of minority MPs in parliament does not guarantee that your community's interests are being taken care of, dude. If you don't even understand that, you cannot go any further. You don't understand how competition works at all.

It is easy for you to call me any names or put any labels on me. But my track record and consistency will just prove otherwise. That is not something easy for you to brush away.

Goh Meng Seng

Is there a lack of adequate minority candidates in parliament today? The GRC system guarantees that minority representation exists in parliament and that too in the mainstream body. At last count there are a quite a number of minority MPs in parliament.



Majority rules. Just like a group of Chinese extremists that attempted to use that as a pretext to change the National Anthem to Chinese.



What makes you believe minority interests have been neglected and that too because of lack of competition? Can you quote some specific examples?

NSP does not have a view on HDB ethnic quota either. In fact NSP has never touched based on minority issues before. Certainly not you GMS, even when you stood on the WP ticket in Aljunied. It appear incredulous to me that you all of a sudden have minority concerns at heart.

Or is this really an issue to remove the pesky minority rep in GRC that is at present limiting your platform?



I am not too concerned with the present GRC system. At best we can alway revert to the FPTP system. Lest you forget, it was a minority candidate that broke the PAP's absolute rule in Anson. I wonder what JBJ would think about your hare-brained scheme if he were alive today.

GMS, i know you are a dishonest individual but here is a piece of advice for your own good. Be honest when you say you want an proportional rep for your own selfish interest. At least have the decency not to hide behind the minority and claim its in his best interest. Shame on you!

 

[Hawkeye1819]

GMS,

You are thinking too many steps aheads. Fill the 9 slots with actual (not NCMP) oppo MPs first, then watch how the whites react. I think you might find a few surprises; the whites don't have to react by suddenly embracing proportional representation. The more likely outcome is coalition politics.

Dear Scroobal,

Actually I disagree. PAP may not be considering proportional representation right now because they are the monopoly.

Ironically, it will be the their own design of GRC that would force them into proportional representation. I wonder how many ministers PAP could afford to lose if the GRC fortress starts to fall in with domino effect. 1? 2? 3? or 4?

They could not dismantle the whole GRC system without destroying their own creditability. The only thing they could do is to modify it into a proportional representative system to save their ministers from total annihilation.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[scroobal]

Ok, I got your point. I suspect that he accommodating voters who tend to lean towards politicians that are non confrontational in the early days - its more kissing babies at this stage to please the uncle and aunties.

Moderator,

I am not a political newbie. In fact, I'd been observing Singapore politics way back in the late 70's when I was still in secondary school. I just want Mr Goh Meng Seng to take himself seriously as a candidate in the upcoming GE. Only then, he has a good chance of beating Marboro Tan and his gang in Tampines GRC.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

GMS,

You are thinking too many steps aheads. Fill the 9 slots with actual (not NCMP) oppo MPs first, then watch how the whites react. I think you might find a few surprises; the whites don't have to react by suddenly embracing proportional representation. The more likely outcome is coalition politics.

Dear Hawkeye,

You are right. Proportional representation or not, it is really not up to my generation to decide. It is just a "Highfalutin Ideal" to start with.

But I have categorically declared (to Beritan Harian) that my first priority is to send in a Malay opposition member into parliament, be it NCMP or MP. There is an urgency to do so now, especially now.

Due to the lack of competition among the Malay PAP MPs, they are living in self denial about the problems that their community is facing. Only recently that they suddenly admit that the problems of dysfunctional families in their community have reached a critical level.

People like Yellow People (a very racist nick he has here, hopefully he is not going to stand as a candidate in next GE... he will be politically finished if someone exposed him using such racist nick) does not understand the need of competition. So be it.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[aurvandil]

Your proportional rep system is similar to 19th century Jim Crow laws. You might as well wear all white robe complete with a white cone over your heads and stand on the soapbox in Tampines. At least we can have a spectacle and a good laugh.

This is the kind of silly alarmist rethoric the PAP is so famous for.

The obvious proportional representation system would be one based on the popular vote. Instead of giving 99% of the seats to the PAP when only 66.6% of the people voted for them, a proportional representation system would see the PAP get only 66.6% of the seats. The balance of the seats would go to the Opposition parties based on the number of people who voted for them.

And least you write this off as a looney idea, this is in fact the democracy which is being practiced in many established democracies in Europe.

It is of course unlikely to happen as long as popular support for the PAP is over 60%. That would however change is support for the PAP fell to below 55% and there is a chance that the PAP might be booted out altogether. Hence if Singapore gets a proportional representative system, it will not be because of Goh Meng Seng's idealism. It will be because the PAP trying to "tweak" the system to their advantage. Always trust the PAP to change the rules when it look like they are going to lose.

On the ethnic minorities in Singapore, there is very strong empirical evidence that some ethnic minorities have been hit very hard by the PAP's failed policies over the past 5 years. As an example, if you think life is hard as a Singapore Chinese competing with FT from China/India, wait till you try doing it as a Singaporean Malay or a Singaporean Indian. If our minority PAP Ministers and MPs had been looking out for communities, they should have spoken up more strongly against the FT policy as their communities are the ones which are the most affected by the policy.

 

[aurvandil]

Politics everywhere is about perception. In some countries, getting more than 50% of the vote is already a great victory. Whereas here getting 51% of votes is consider a setback for PAP. It really about perception.

I think the last thing we need or want is to elect Goh Meng Seng and find out that he is really another type of PAP.

 

[scroobal]

No way will proportional representation form any part of PAP's political agenda even for the future.

At the last elections only 34% of total eligible voters voted for the PAP. The majority could not vote because the culture of repression has led to walkovers being mainstays of Singapore's political climate. Where do they get the audacity to claim a mandate when only 34% of voters.

The PAP does not even have confidence in itself that they will continue to put hurdles and obstacles as part of their political DNA.

Dear Scroobal,

Actually I disagree. PAP may not be considering proportional representation right now because they are the monopoly.

Ironically, it will be the their own design of GRC that would force them into proportional representation. I wonder how many ministers PAP could afford to lose if the GRC fortress starts to fall in with domino effect. 1? 2? 3? or 4?

They could not dismantle the whole GRC system without destroying their own creditability. The only thing they could do is to modify it into a proportional representative system to save their ministers from total annihilation.

Goh Meng Seng