Putting Spurs deeper into PAP's thick Hides

[Goh Meng Seng]

The Chink extremist are not arguing for a FPTP system in case you haven't noticed. They are arguing for a 75% Chinese dominated seat under the proportional system. If the minority citizen surrender that right, they should jolly well leave Singapore as this island will be another communist regime.

Why are you so presumptuous again?

A proportional representation could mean a lot different ways of managing. It could say "AT LEAST 25%" of seats for minority without setting the upper limit!

As I have said, anything that comes to your way, you will always think it is racially bias.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[yellow_people]

Meng Seng, I have shown you to be a two bit charlatan. Now you are stating that racial discrimination is imagined by the minority community. Well I shall not have this argument with you but keep this thread for posterity.

You keep talking about the middle class progress when it is evidenced by all ethnic groups. I presume next you are going to state that the FT issue is also imagined by the citizen as his asset value is appreciating. As I said, you are a closet racist and one that needs to be handled with utmost care.

When the time come I will nail you thick fat hide to the wall and I will not show you the sympathy I did in 2006.

And thanks for the comment. It isn't "discrimination but rather the increasing number of dysfunctional families".. Indian and Malay. So NSP intends to relegate this issue to community based help with Proportional Representation where the majority can continue to put the thumb on minorities.

Wonder what the minority Malay candidate at NSP has to say about this. Thanks again GMS for revealing your true colors.

It is understandable for your frustration here because you are basically grasping straws. If you want to believe there are racial discrimination, you will always fit anything, everything into that mold. You were arguing something else, the whole system is discriminating people of your community. But let's open your eyes. There is a steady growth in the middle class in your community. So it begs the question, if you are so right about racial discrimination back then, how could such middle class grow in size?

Empirical evidence has proven otherwise unless you want to argue with reality. As I have stated long ago, education is the only means of equalizer, a means for people to climb the social ladder. We are having a growth of middle class in your community basically due to the contribution of the general rise in educational level. Although, in relative terms, some studies have found that your community is still lagging behind in terms of median income but the rise in the middle class is real.

In relative terms, I have also shown you that in comparison to Malaysia's system, Singapore fair much better without some racially based policies which economically disadvantaged the minority here. In contrary, Singapore civil service is more open in its employment policy.

You have totally mistaken about the problems that your community faced. It is not so much of discrimination but rather the increasing number of dysfunctional families which keep them in the poverty trap. This is something that need urgent attention.

Please help yourself, don't contest in the next GE. You are living in your own imaginary presumptuous world. Politics of hatred and vengeance, especially racially based, may be the easiest way out for people who don't really understand policy analytical perspective, but it will not only be divisive but damaging to the social fabrics.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[SeeFartLoong]

Putting Spurs deeper into PAP's thick Hides

Actually I want to PUT SPERM DEEPTER INTO PAP's FAT ASS!

 

[yellow_people]

Why are you so presumptuous again?

A proportional representation could mean a lot different ways of managing. It could say "AT LEAST 25%" of seats for minority without setting the upper limit!

As I have said, anything that comes to your way, you will always think it is racially bias.

Goh Meng Seng

The problem is this - minority representation will be subject to the whims of mainstream politics which will be firmly controlled by the majority. Elections will not matter as minority concerns will not be able to influence the outcome in any way. You have yet to comment on the ethnic housing quota by the way.

 

[Sideswipe]

Well something tells me that the Communist is having a hard time contesting in multi-cultural Singapore. At the very least you Ah Bengs can be honest about it. Why is it at Chinese oriented parties liek NSP and WP has just a hard time attracting minority candidates?

What is your opinion on ethnic housing quota? How in the world is the minority to be represented or vote in a Chink system such as the one you propose when he is segregated by racial quota?

I say all along - reserve seats in Parliament for the minorities.

a Malay/Indian MP elected by his own community will be "forced" to fight for Malay/Indian issues under pressure from his voters.
A GRC minority MP might not do so because he doesn't need the support of his race to win re-election.

of course, our minorities can still contest in SMC and GRC elections.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I have repeatedly shown that NCMP is definitely not like NMPs. NCMP walks into parliament with the support of a certain percentage of voters, while NMP are plain APPOINTED without any legitimacy of backing from voters. They are two different cups of tea altogether.

As I have mentioned, there are many different types of PR that we could explore together as a Nation. No need to choose and close on other options.

Being NCMP will definitely help in raising his/her profile. To demonstrate this, I would just quote the norm on the ground. When a party goes on to sell its papers on the ground, the NCMP like Steve Chia or Sylvia will definitely make more sales than other members in the party. (Not to mention MP like Low TK).

Goh Meng Seng

NCMPs are election losers that are given a backdoor to parliament. They are not MPs. NCMPs and NMPs should be given titles like observers in Parliament.

I support PR too but it should be a second vote for Party-list proportional representation.
The party list MP are called Nationwide MPs.

regarding Steve Chia. Bros here said he preformed admirably in Parliament. But really how many peasants know what he did in Parliament? I don't know, the great majority of peasants don't and are not interested to know. It's not his fault too. Nobody know what the PAP MPs do in Parliament too. I don't know if being a NCMP will help in winning future elections.

 

[yellow_people]

You mean it is not a sign of consistency when you met her twice on the ground? How often do you meet your MPs in coffeeshops?

Your grievances are all about "discrimination". Anything, everything can be blamed on "discrimination". So? If your mind is already closed for other possibilities, what do you expect her to respond to you?

I played a supporting role in GE 2006 and obviously, I would let Sylvia handled situation like this one. Sorry that I couldn't remember what you say back then. But I can understand Sylvia's stand, not to argue with a angry man.

Goh Meng Seng

There was nothing angry about the discussion and I was with a group of Ah Bengs back then. Sylvia, James and your goodself approached me. Blk 631, the corner coffeeshop at Bedok Reservoir Road. Sylvia was stumped by a few simple questions, James pretended to be engrossed in a separate conversation at the next table and you were caught grinning like an idiot. Hope that jogs your memory.

 

[yellow_people]

I say all along - reserve seats in Parliament for the minorities.

a Malay/Indian MP elected by his own community will be "forced" to fight for Malay/Indian issues under pressure from his voters.
A GRC minority MP might not do so because he doesn't need the support of his race to win re-election.

of course, our minorities can still contest in SMC and GRC elections.

So the minority is "forced" to fight for minority issues? Where does he stand? Geylang Serai or Little India? Oops I forgot the "regime change" Ah Bengs have no answer to the HDB ethnic quota.

You see in a GRC the party as a whole has to shore up support not just for the majority Ah Beng but for the rest of the races.. this is where Commie parties like NSP and WP are found wanting. Therefore it stands to reason why NSP is so vocal about a proportional rep system. They can go about their business without having to worry about a Singaporean's Singapore.

 

[yellow_people]

You have totally mistaken about the problems that your community faced. It is not so much of discrimination but rather the increasing number of dysfunctional families which keep them in the poverty trap. This is something that need urgent attention.
Goh Meng Seng

So according to Goh Meng Seng, the root cause of minorities being left behind is a result of dysfunctional families. His solution is to leave them further behind with a proportional representative system.

Can someone be kind enough to list out the minority candidates in NSP? I would like to hear from them their views on what the Secretary General of their own party has just stated in public.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

The problem is this - minority representation will be subject to the whims of mainstream politics which will be firmly controlled by the majority. Elections will not matter as minority concerns will not be able to influence the outcome in any way. You have yet to comment on the ethnic housing quota by the way.

Contrary to your point here, minority concerns do influence the outcome.

Prior to GE 2006, I have already projected that if WP cannot win at least 45% of minority votes, we will not be able to win Aljunied. This projection has proven to be right. Whether we like it or not, any parties that want to win any seats, will have to win the minority votes.

Any party that wants to participate in any group elections (just like GRC) will still have to field at least one minority candidates. The system works in such a way that at least one minority candidate will still be elected from that group. So what's the difference between the present system and this PR system? The only difference is that its not going to be one party win all.

The National MP system could be looked into as well. There are so many ways the PR system could be configured, why would you necessary view it as discriminative?

Ethnic housing quota system is a debatable system. It could work both ways and it will have its merits and demerits. You can look at it as the quota is measured against minority presence, but it could also be viewed as a quota against Chinese dominance. For example, if you are talking about 25% quota for Malay, it could also be set by saying Chinese cannot be more than 75%.

I would prefer a "dual quota" system. It will say, quota for minority not more than 35% or 40% and quota for Chinese not more than 80%. Why 35% or 40% for minority? While we want a well integration of citizens, we do not want to hinder the prospects of minority in buying or selling their flats with a tight quota of 25%. It is ok to have a quota bigger than national proportion to provide some flexibility. On the other hand, I do not like to see All Chinese dominance in an area as well. A 100% Chinese dominance in an area is unhealthy at all.

How about doing away with the quota system altogether? I am not in favor of that for many reasons.

Of course if the national proportion of racial distribution changes, we could revise the quota accordingly.

Actually I am more concerned about rich and middle class divides. The clustering effect of having the rich living off in their own little paradise out from the normal HDB heartland is more worrying. We may just have more "Elite uncaring faces" in the process which will create more social tensions. Well, this will be for another time.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

So according to Goh Meng Seng, the root cause of minorities being left behind is a result of dysfunctional families. His solution is to leave them further behind with a proportional representative system.

Can someone be kind enough to list out the minority candidates in NSP? I would like to hear from them their views on what the Secretary General of their own party has just stated in public.

How do you come to that conclusion that a PR system will leave the minority behind is really beyond my comprehension! Having a system that make sure minority representation will be secured will actually leave minority interests behind? Do you seriously know what you are talking about?

Goh Meng Seng

 

[yellow_people]

Don't blame the minority votes for your loss in Aljunied GRC. Are you claiming that WP did not win 45% of minority votes in Aljunied? How did you arrive at that conclusion?

So how exactly does your proportional rep system work? Let's assume that a political party is unable to field any minority candidate except Chinese ones like present day NSP. How does that party fit into the scheme of things? You are against doing away with the HDB ethnic quota system so which constituency does the minority candidate then represent and what guarantee does the minority have that this bill will not be vetoed in parliament by the 75% majority?

Btw I am against your version of proportional rep as something does not smell quite right. Keep the GRC else return to the FPTP (first past the post system).

Contrary to your point here, minority concerns do influence the outcome.

Prior to GE 2006, I have already projected that if WP cannot win at least 45% of minority votes, we will not be able to win Aljunied. This projection has proven to be right. Whether we like it or not, any parties that want to win any seats, will have to win the minority votes.

Any party that wants to participate in any group elections (just like GRC) will still have to field at least one minority candidates. The system works in such a way that at least one minority candidate will still be elected from that group. So what's the difference between the present system and this PR system? The only difference is that its not going to be one party win all.

The National MP system could be looked into as well. There are so many ways the PR system could be configured, why would you necessary view it as discriminative?

Ethnic housing quota system is a debatable system. It could work both ways and it will have its merits and demerits. You can look at it as the quota is measured against minority presence, but it could also be viewed as a quota against Chinese dominance. For example, if you are talking about 25% quota for Malay, it could also be set by saying Chinese cannot be more than 75%.

I would prefer a "dual quota" system. It will say, quota for minority not more than 35% or 40% and quota for Chinese not more than 80%. Why 35% or 40% for minority? While we want a well integration of citizens, we do not want to hinder the prospects of minority in buying or selling their flats with a tight quota of 25%. It is ok to have a quota bigger than national proportion to provide some flexibility. On the other hand, I do not like to see All Chinese dominance in an area as well. A 100% Chinese dominance in an area is unhealthy at all.

How about doing away with the quota system altogether? I am not in favor of that for many reasons.

Of course if the national proportion of racial distribution changes, we could revise the quota accordingly.

Actually I am more concerned about rich and middle class divides. The clustering effect of having the rich living off in their own little paradise out from the normal HDB heartland is more worrying. We may just have more "Elite uncaring faces" in the process which will create more social tensions. Well, this will be for another time.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[yellow_people]

How do you come to that conclusion that a PR system will leave the minority behind is really beyond my comprehension! Having a system that make sure minority representation will be secured will actually leave minority interests behind? Do you seriously know what you are talking about?

Goh Meng Seng

You see. When you have a system where minorities choose their own leaders against the backdrop of mainstream politics; the 75% majority (Chinese) in this case is insulated from any political repercussion against the minorities as they will be elected by their own majority leader. The Chinese majority can disenfranchise the minority citizen all he wants without suffering the political backlash.

You are being dishonest Ah Seng. The bald truth is that NSP is looking more and more like a communist party. So to cement your presence pandering to the majority race you are looking to implement a proportional rep system. Ever wondered why the minority shuns NSP?

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

You did not even get the idea at all.

If there is rife discrimination there and then as you have suggested, there won't be any middle class growth within your community at all. Or even worse, regression. Non of that sort has happened.

It is your imagination that there is widespread discrimination. I really wonder whether you are truthful to your "Ah Beng" friends or not, telling them they are "Chinese Chinks" and so. Maybe you should introduce them to me and I will have a good talk with them.

When we are talking about your little imagination of wide spread discrimination, proving that you are grasping straws, you just want to side track to FT policy. These are totally two different things. Of course, you can't complain right now about "Chinese Chinks" becoming construction workers as you would like to do.

I am bewildered by your so many racist remarks so far and yes, please try to form your team to contest in Tampines if you can...of course, you must tell whoever Chinese candidates running with you that they are "Chinese Chnks". Well, it is ok if you can do without "Chinese Chinks" and form a team of all other race.

I know exactly where you are coming from right from the start when you mention about your objection to proportional representation system and mentioning of that HDB quota. Someone like you could only survive with an electrates who are primarily your race and may be sway by your racist rhetorics.

Time has changed. I truly doubt that the rising more affluent well educated middle class of your race would subscribe to your racist rhetorics. You have continuously made without fail the kind of racist remarks and rhetorics that it really makes one wonder whether you are referring to yourself about "racial discrimination".

Have a good day and when the time comes, I will stand firm and see your fall.

Goh Meng Seng

Meng Seng, I have shown you to be a two bit charlatan. Now you are stating that racial discrimination is imagined by the minority community. Well I shall not have this argument with you but keep this thread for posterity.

You keep talking about the middle class progress when it is evidenced by all ethnic groups. I presume next you are going to state that the FT issue is also imagined by the citizen as his asset value is appreciating. As I said, you are a closet racist and one that needs to be handled with utmost care.

When the time come I will nail you thick fat hide to the wall and I will not show you the sympathy I did in 2006.

And thanks for the comment. It isn't "discrimination but rather the increasing number of dysfunctional families".. Indian and Malay. So NSP intends to relegate this issue to community based help with Proportional Representation where the majority can continue to put the thumb on minorities.

Wonder what the minority Malay candidate at NSP has to say about this. Thanks again GMS for revealing your true colors.

 

[scroobal]

I think its wise not to engage anyone in this manner. He has not returned the courtesy accorded to him. There must be a level of decorum if serious discussion is to take place. I have no time for racist in this side or on the other side of the fence.

This is the reason why PAP does not engage in discussion with anyone except those they invite. This chap is taking you on because there is no one else who is prepared to discuss with him.

He still does not get it - Minorities are courting the PAP and then they blame the others for not pushing their interest. This chap genuinely thinks that PAP created GRC for him.

I am seriously disappointed as I attempted to clear the decks of racists so that a meaningful discussions on minority grievances can be had. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that they face discrimination and the racial policies implemented does not allow nation building - its clearly silos the races. I hope we get minorities in this forum that can lead serious discussions.

You did not even get the idea at all.

If there is rife discrimination there and then as you have suggested, there won't be any middle class growth within your community at all. Or even worse, regression. Non of that sort has happened.

It is your imagination that there is widespread discrimination. I really wonder whether you are truthful to your "Ah Beng" friends or not, telling them they are "Chinese Chinks" and so. Maybe you should introduce them to me and I will have a good talk with them.

 

[Perspective]

Scro, the chap thinks he can only 'win' on subjective stuff and live on lies. The last time I challenged him on facts, he ran away. He had exemplified SDP as a multiracial party and I pointed out that it had only 1 Malay.

The fact is that ALL parties except SPP has 1 Malay CEC member. SPP has 2. His facts are totally gonecase. Never even checked.

 

[Perspective]

I wonder if NCMP does more harm than good to opposition. The problem is we get to 'hear' the NCMP, but the NCMP will not have a chance to 'serve'. And it's through 'serving' that oppositions can make a solid impression in the minds and hearts of the electorate.

Look at Steve Chia. He was a breath of fresh air when he became NCMP. Although he did well as NCMP, he couldn't really 'serve' the constituency. The novelty was lost in the next election.

I bet if Sylvia Lim were to challenge for any SMC seat she would not even garner 40%.

When you're not yet in Parliament, novelty is your advantage. Once you're in Parliament, novelty is lost. What remains is your ability to serve. Both CST and LTW did well in this area.

I don't totally disagree, but just want to point 2 facts:

1. Even elected MPs may not be reelected. For the opp, Ling and Cheo are examples.

2. Many don't know that NCMP is elected. Yes not even TOC chaps. Go read the gazette. It says 'I hereby declare XXXXXX elected Non-Constituency Member of Parliament. Tan Boon Huat, Returning Officer. Date: XXXXXX'

 

[scroobal]

It appears to be the case. I am still surprised that he is beholden to the PAP.

Scro, the chap thinks he can only 'win' on subjective stuff and live on lies. The last time I challenged him on facts, he ran away. He had exemplified SDP as a multiracial party and I pointed out that it had only 1 Malay.

The fact is that ALL parties except SPP has 1 Malay CEC member. SPP has 2. His facts are totally gonecase. Never even checked.

 

[aurvandil]

Through all the sound and fury of this discussion, it seems very odd that the central issue of what is happening to our ethnic minorities have not been mentioned.

Goh Meng Seng has written briefly about the rising incidence of dysfunctional families in the Malay community? He has also written about rising anger in the Malay community? What do you think is the chief cause for these observations?

As I mentioned in an earlier posting, if you think life with the FT policy is tough as a Singaporean Chinese, what do you think life is like for a Singaporean Malay or a Singaporean Indian? Although it is never spoken out loud, the hiring preferences for many employers appear to be:

1) FT of all races (cheaper, better faster)
2) Singaporean Chinese
3) Singaporean Malay/Singaporean Indian

For housing, the overwhelming number of FT admitted into Singapore appear to be from China and India. Although Singapore is next door to Malaysia and Indonesia, we do not see large scale immigration of ethnic Malays from these countries into Singapore. Consequently when we talk about huge increases in HDB prices, we are really talking about huge price increases for HDB flats owned by Singaporean Chinese and Singaporean Indians. There is a much smaller increase in the value of HDB flats for Singaporean Malays as there has been no surge in demand for Malay HDB flats (ethnic integration policy) brought about by immigration. Although their flats are worth less, young Malay couples seeking a new home nevertheless have to pay the same “subsidized” rate as other races when they apply to buy a flat from HDB

The minority PAP Ministers and MPs have been completely silent on these issues affecting their communities. Other than the tired old mantra of more training, there have been no schemes or plans to help their communities cope with the fallout from the FT policy. GCT has recently said that there will be no u-turn in the FT policy. We can therefore expect things to get even worse as we go forward.

Given this reality which no one wants to admit, Goh Meng Seng’s strategy makes sense. As I mentioned before, Goh Meng Seng is one of those rare politicians who would rather do what is right rather than what is politically correct. The Malay community is most in need of someone to speak up from them. Hence if his team loses in Tampines, he has indicated that his team’s Malay candidate will go in as the NMP to ask the difficult questions that need to be asked. As the issues affecting the Malay community affect all communities in Singapore (FT policy, HDB policy), this Malay candidate would be speaking for everyone.

Of course if the voters in Tampines elect Goh Meng Seng, his entire team will go in and be able to do even more for Singaporeans. We would also remove a Minister whose polcies have caused a great deal of hardship for many Singaporeans.

On local issues, there are scandals galore in Tampines GRC. I suspect they will all start to surface closer to the election.

 

[elephanto]

It was pretty heavy - going thru 79 posts before I cast my 2 cents worth.

In a nutshell, this thread started with a neat summary of some key GMS political beliefs & effective handling of the usual diatribes against the opposition e..g. why minister-policy-specific, the evergreen argument of what alternatives can you offer etc.

Along the way, the thread got stuck in the following contentious ruts:-
(1) accepting the role of NCMP is counterproductive to the Opposition's cause

(2) Existence of discrimination against the minorities in employment etc

(3) GRC & its implications after all these years

(4)Proportional Representation in our parliamentary system - another mix can of worms

I may have missed out 1 or 2 other points of contention.

I thought there is a lesson in the way the thread developed.

The initial WOW & impact of a compact opening case fizzled when extraneous issues crept in.

Of course, these are neither irrelevant or avoidable. Since this is a free form forum, threads by & large develop spontaneously.

My point is:- translated into the real world, choice of setting & delineating the boundaries of discussing a specific issue can diffuse or enhance the original impact.

A new reader after being impressed by the opening few posts that coagulate around the points in the first post - eventually becomes distracted & confused by the noise of the other contentious issues (which deserved focused debate in their own right)
_________________________________________________________

Some of my views on what has been discussed:

1) I agree NCMP has elected-legitimacy vis-a-vis NMP. Its birth & development were in response to historical realities & so far, I can't say it is detrimental to the overall Opposition cause. It does institutionalise the Opp Voice & have a subtle salutary effect of helping to evolve opposition presence in the House

2) Proportional Rep (PR) - I am instinctively against given the sacred-cow 'unsuitable' conventional thinking over the years. Will some ingenious formula of PR be the 'magic bridge' to the evolution of some 'ideal' state of politics in Singapore?

Such as
(a) a 2-party state, PAP & another, or PAP govt & another Opposition Coalition Govt
(b) a PAP Govt (or a Govt of Credible leaders, not necessary PAP) with a strong & effective opposition presence say around 33%
(c) An overwhelming PAP Parliament with a small approx 10 opposition MP
The present is worse than (c), since 1981, in 30 years, there has been no more than 4 opp voices in Parliament (excluding NMPs)

Personally I dunno what's he ideal but one thing I am sure, it has to be an evolutionary process.

Many differing views arise because some feel an Opp Election Strategy should aim for (a) or (b) or (c). Realistically, which is a more pragmatic or meaningful goal today?
3) I do not agree with GRC despite its lofty PAP rationale & subsequent concession of other 'uses' of GRC by SM Goh. As Scro said, Raja, JBJ, Devan Nair, Chandra Das, Ahmad Mattar & many more minorities were electable before 1988.

That's all for now.....