Putting Spurs deeper into PAP's thick Hides

[scroobal]

Minorities have won seats well before GRC was formed. Raja, JBJ, Devan Nair, plus many other Malay, Indian and Eurasian MPs have won seat in chinese dominated constituencies.

The GRC is a smoke screen to carry lesser qualified candidates and encourage non politically inclined but well qualified candidates to walk into parliament. Why are more than one chinese in a GRC slate when they claiming that its to ensure minority participation.

If the PAP is truly caring of minorities, they would designate minority only seats in parliament.

Is there a lack of adequate minority candidates in parliament today? The GRC system guarantees that minority representation exists in parliament and that too in the mainstream body. At last count there are a quite a number of minority MPs in parliament.

 

[Sideswipe]

Minorities have won seats well before GRC was formed. Raja, JBJ, Devan Nair, plus many other Malay, Indian and Eurasian MPs have won seat in chinese dominated constituencies.

The GRC is a smoke screen to carry lesser qualified candidates and encourage non politically inclined but well qualified candidates to walk into parliament. Why are more than one chinese in a GRC slate when they claiming that its to ensure minority participation.

If the PAP is truly caring of minorities, they would designate minority only seats in parliament.

Minorities will struggle to win elections in general. This is a fact. That's why to protect minorities rights, we should reserve seats in parliament for them.

GRC is party-based politics. Independent are left with few SMC seats to target every GE.

Every person who want to run for public office should be allowed to gain his fellow countrymen mandate and enter parliament. If you are a independent who has no desire to join a political party, your choices are really limited. The few SMC seats have been fully booked by the opposition parties. No opposition parties will back out of a SMC for a independent candidate in 3 corner fights.

GRC have eliminated independents from the political scene totally.

 

[sampierre]

Dear Hawkeye,


But I have categorically declared (to Beritan Harian) that my first priority is to send in a Malay opposition member into parliament, be it NCMP or MP. There is an urgency to do so now, especially now.



Goh Meng Seng

GMS,

I think it's very, very silly of you to so openly declare to the whole world that NSP is going to embrace the NCMP scheme at this early stage before GE2010 is called for. You know what could happen come election time? Mahboro Tan would tell Tampines voters this :
"Vote PAP so that it can run the town council properly for the residents and resolve their municipal problems, and let people like GMS enter Parliament as back-door NCMPs so that they can discuss national issues with Ministers in the House. Thus, voters can have their cake and eat it too."

And what next? If I live in Tampines and my family has 5 voters, I would tell
3 family voters to vote PAP and the other 2 to vote NSP. In this way, I'm assured that PAP shall remain in power and at the same time, GMS can be a NCMP so that he can satisfy his desire for debate with Ministers in parliament.

GMS, TELL US, IS THIS THE OUTCOME YOU REALLY WISH FOR WHEN YOU WHOLEHEARTEDLY SUPPORT THE NCMP SCHEME??

THE PAPAYAS MUST BE LAUGHING ALL THE WAY TO THE POLLING STATION.

 

[yellow_people]

Minorities will struggle to win elections in general. This is a fact. That's why to protect minorities rights, we should reserve seats in parliament for them.

GRC is party-based politics. Independent are left with few SMC seats to target every GE.

Every person who want to run for public office should be allowed to gain his fellow countrymen mandate and enter parliament. If you are a independent who has no desire to join a political party, your choices are really limited. The few SMC seats have been fully booked by the opposition parties. No opposition parties will back out of a SMC for a independent candidate in 3 corner fights.

GRC have eliminated independents from the political scene totally.

The fact of the matter is the Chinese extremist are having a hard time competing in the present GRC system that requires a multi-cultural representation. I guess the minority citizen is doomed by the Chink extremist. I intend to take this issue mainstream and destroy Chinese parties like NSP for good.

Lancerglx I hope you are reading this.

 

[yellow_people]

No politician will answer a question like that. Minorities have been neutered by the PAP when they introduced HDB racial quotas. Tactically any mention of perks, concerns etc expressed for the minorities may cost votes from the majority. The fact that this forum and nearly every forum has a few rabid racist and bigots is a clear indication they are out there. Its not that the minorities lack racists and bigots but they are smaller in numbers and especially the fact the minorities would be more aware of what racial bigotry does.

Put it another way - even if GMS or any politician is a champion of minority rights, that fact will not revealed when the voters that make the difference are the Chinese. Clearly the PAP has disenfranchised the minorities. Its one reason why I am truly puzzled when I see minorities joining or supporting PAP.

Neutered is rubbish. As is your comment on disenfranchised the minorities. You should really back up your facts. If you surrender your rights to the majority you deserve to be neutered. You asked me for a system worse than the GRC and I gave you one in less than 24 hours.

What is the POV of NSP president btw?

 

[yellow_people]

Minorities have won seats well before GRC was formed. Raja, JBJ, Devan Nair, plus many other Malay, Indian and Eurasian MPs have won seat in chinese dominated constituencies.

The GRC is a smoke screen to carry lesser qualified candidates and encourage non politically inclined but well qualified candidates to walk into parliament. Why are more than one chinese in a GRC slate when they claiming that its to ensure minority participation.

If the PAP is truly caring of minorities, they would designate minority only seats in parliament.

The first past the post system should suffice. Please don't do the minority any favors. The whole exercise of proportional rep is that the Ah Beng is unable to contest on a multi racial platform. Surely you know this.

 

[yellow_people]

I intend to discuss this matter with every minority candidate in NSP, PKMS and WP and bring community pressure to bear. What is their take on the representative system that Chinese chauvinist are touting? If the Ah Beng finds he is unable to contest a single GRC in the forthcoming election he has only himself to blame. We do not want Commie China on this little island. Before I pack my bags for Tanjong Pinang.. I at the very least owe the minority citizen this much for their own well being.

 

[Queen Seok Duk]

I wonder if NCMP does more harm than good to opposition. The problem is we get to 'hear' the NCMP, but the NCMP will not have a chance to 'serve'. And it's through 'serving' that oppositions can make a solid impression in the minds and hearts of the electorate.

Look at Steve Chia. He was a breath of fresh air when he became NCMP. Although he did well as NCMP, he couldn't really 'serve' the constituency. The novelty was lost in the next election.

I bet if Sylvia Lim were to challenge for any SMC seat she would not even garner 40%.

When you're not yet in Parliament, novelty is your advantage. Once you're in Parliament, novelty is lost. What remains is your ability to serve. Both CST and LTW did well in this area.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

If Mah BT take that stand, he will be in trouble.

He is being FIXED in a position without much room for maneuver right now: If he cannot convince voters that his HDB policies are good, he deserves to lose.

I have stated clearly that my first priority is to send a Malay opposition member into parliament, by hook or by crook. This is my FUNDAMENTAL AIM of my battle. If we win and walk into parliament together, that would be great for Singapore's future development. But if we lose, whether I take up NCMP or not, it is really immaterial. (Personally, I don't prefer to and would want to let others to have the chance.)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with NCMP... except that it has been mistakenly undermined by PAP. I would fight for FULL RIGHTS for NCMP. As a believer in proportional representation, NCMP should be granted full rights just like full MPs. In fact, in a proportional representation system, the so call "NCMPs" who get lesser than majority votes, are in fact rightfully elected MPs.

It is up for Mah BT to convince voters about that, shunning his mission to convince voters about HDB policy. It is up for me to convince voters that the only way to force PAP to do more good for Singaporeans, it is to make them lose a GRC or two. It is for the future political development of Singapore, to force PAP to change the system into proportional representation system. There will be inevitably painful process for Singapore in forcing PAP to do what is right, but in the long run, it will do wonders to secure our future generations' interests. If I cannot convince my voters that, I deserve to lose.

If Singaporeans only vote according to their own considerations without looking at the bigger picture in building a better political system for our future generations, so be it. All of us have to live with our own choices that we made in our lives.

To accept NCMP, especially for my Malay candidate, is VITAL for future battles to initiate change for Singapore. We should look at the bigger picture except of just looking at short term tactical advantages or disadvantages. We must have the hearts and minds for something bigger than just winning battles. Don't worry about winning or losing. The victory will naturally come for those who just do the right things for the people.

Goh Meng Seng

GMS,

I think it's very, very silly of you to so openly declare to the whole world that NSP is going to embrace the NCMP scheme at this early stage before GE2010 is called for. You know what could happen come election time? Mahboro Tan would tell Tampines voters this :
"Vote PAP so that it can run the town council properly for the residents and resolve their municipal problems, and let people like GMS enter Parliament as back-door NCMPs so that they can discuss national issues with Ministers in the House. Thus, voters can have their cake and eat it too."

And what next? If I live in Tampines and my family has 5 voters, I would tell
3 family voters to vote PAP and the other 2 to vote NSP. In this way, I'm assured that PAP shall remain in power and at the same time, GMS can be a NCMP so that he can satisfy his desire for debate with Ministers in parliament.

GMS, TELL US, IS THIS THE OUTCOME YOU REALLY WISH FOR WHEN YOU WHOLEHEARTEDLY SUPPORT THE NCMP SCHEME??

THE PAPAYAS MUST BE LAUGHING ALL THE WAY TO THE POLLING STATION.

 

[yellow_people]

Minorities have won seats well before GRC was formed. Raja, JBJ, Devan Nair, plus many other Malay, Indian and Eurasian MPs have won seat in chinese dominated constituencies.

The GRC is a smoke screen to carry lesser qualified candidates and encourage non politically inclined but well qualified candidates to walk into parliament. Why are more than one chinese in a GRC slate when they claiming that its to ensure minority participation.

If the PAP is truly caring of minorities, they would designate minority only seats in parliament.

You are about as dishonest as it can get. The minorities do not want minority only seats. This is the Chink majority talking so that they can hijack mainstream politics. Since when has the minority asked for minority seats. And please don't lie my friend.

 

[yellow_people]

Meng Seng, you are as stupid as you are dishonest. We had a discussion on s.c.s several years ago regarding "No China maids" and your vehement reply was there was no racial discrimination in Singapore. You went by the moniker of MADCOW and from the onset I knew you were one of the "regime change" Ah Bengs. So please stop saying Mah BT is the one in trouble. I have not even started with you yet.

If Mah BT take that stand, he will be in trouble.

He is being FIXED in a position without much room for maneuver right now: If he cannot convince voters that his HDB policies are good, he deserves to lose.

I have stated clearly that my first priority is to send a Malay opposition member into parliament, by hook or by crook. This is my FUNDAMENTAL AIM of my battle. If we win and walk into parliament together, that would be great for Singapore's future development. But if we lose, whether I take up NCMP or not, it is really immaterial. (Personally, I don't prefer to and would want to let others to have the chance.)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with NCMP... except that it has been mistakenly undermined by PAP. I would fight for FULL RIGHTS for NCMP. As a believer in proportional representation, NCMP should be granted full rights just like full MPs. In fact, in a proportional representation system, the so call "NCMPs" who get lesser than majority votes, are in fact rightfully elected MPs.

It is up for Mah BT to convince voters about that, shunning his mission to convince voters about HDB policy. It is up for me to convince voters that the only way to force PAP to do more good for Singaporeans, it is to make them lose a GRC or two. It is for the future political development of Singapore, to force PAP to change the system into proportional representation system. There will be inevitably painful process for Singapore in forcing PAP to do what is right, but in the long run, it will do wonders to secure our future generations' interests. If I cannot convince my voters that, I deserve to lose.

If Singaporeans only vote according to their own considerations without looking at the bigger picture in building a better political system for our future generations, so be it. All of us have to live with our own choices that we made in our lives.

To accept NCMP, especially for my Malay candidate, is VITAL for future battles to initiate change for Singapore. We should look at the bigger picture except of just looking at short term tactical advantages or disadvantages. We must have the hearts and minds for something bigger than just winning battles. Don't worry about winning or losing. The victory will naturally come for those who just do the right things for the people.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I have stated before and will say again, even when we are not in parliament, we could still contribute to the political process and the benefits of the people by utilizing the leverage that the electoral system provides. It just depends on how you play the game. It is much easier to play the game more effectively and efficiently with the internet in this era.

Thus, if one is in parliament, whether it is NCMP or MP, the leverage is even bigger! Unless you are going to sit through parliamentary sittings keeping your lips sealed, I don't see why you can't contribute more as NCMP or MP.

There is no law that says that you cannot walk into any constituency to COMMUNICATE to voters on the ground. Well, as I have said, new generation of voters do not really need you to write letters for them, they could write all the letters they want. What is needed is EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION MEANS on the ground.

It doesn't mean that if you are not running the town councils, you cannot contribute to the people's welfare as NCMP or otherwise. There are 1001 ways to skin the cat... there are 1001 ways to do it right on the ground.

"Novelty" could only last you that long. But I think your assessment of Sylvia may be a bit off. It is about consistency on both fronts. The ground as well as parliamentary exposures. Sylvia has been consistent on the ground, though some people like you may not think highly about her performance in parliament.

As for Steve Chia, unfortunately the maid saga might have prevented him from getting more votes. However, in spite of that, he has gained the national average vote swing of about 5%. Not so bad in view of what he has gone through over that period.

Goh Meng Seng

I wonder if NCMP does more harm than good to opposition. The problem is we get to 'hear' the NCMP, but the NCMP will not have a chance to 'serve'. And it's through 'serving' that oppositions can make a solid impression in the minds and hearts of the electorate.

Look at Steve Chia. He was a breath of fresh air when he became NCMP. Although he did well as NCMP, he couldn't really 'serve' the constituency. The novelty was lost in the next election.

I bet if Sylvia Lim were to challenge for any SMC seat she would not even garner 40%.

When you're not yet in Parliament, novelty is your advantage. Once you're in Parliament, novelty is lost. What remains is your ability to serve. Both CST and LTW did well in this area.

 

[sampierre]

QUOTE=yellow_people;403824] The whole exercise of proportional rep is that the Ah Beng is unable to contest on a multi racial platform. Surely you know this.[/QUOTE]
YELLOW, PLS UNDERSTAND "PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION" REFERS TO THE POLITICAL PARTIES, NOT TO THE RACES OF SINGAPORE!! WHILE I MAY AGREE WITH YOU THAT OPPOSITION PARTIES HAVE PROBLEMS IN FIELDING MALAY CANDIDATES, THAT DOES NOT MEAN THESE PARTIES ARE RACIST. WHY ARE YOU HARPING ON RACE IN YR REMARKS?? BY THE WAY, WHAT HAVE THE PAPAYA MALAY MPs BEEN DOING FOR THE MALAY COMMUNITY ???


I TOTALLY AGREE WITH SCROOBAL ; IN FACT I STRONGLY BELIEVE THE GRC SYSTEM MUST BE SCRAPPED ALTOGEHTER AND WE SHOULD REVERT TO THE FIRST-PAST-THE-POST ELECTORAL SYSTEM IN ORDER TO BE FAIR TO ALL PARTIES, INCLUDING INDEPENDENTS.

 

[Sideswipe]

The first past the post system should suffice. Please don't do the minority any favors. The whole exercise of proportional rep is that the Ah Beng is unable to contest on a multi racial platform. Surely you know this.

The reserve seats in parliament for minorities is not something "Chinese extremist" invented. This system has been used in many 1st world countries for decades already likewise proportional representation

PR = 1 Man 1 Vote, No Wasted Votes.

we know why GRC are invented, it's not for multi-racial platform.
and PR can co-exist with GRC plurality elections too.

 

[yellow_people]

I have stated before and will say again, even when we are not in parliament, we could still contribute to the political process and the benefits of the people by utilizing the leverage that the electoral system provides. It just depends on how you play the game. It is much easier to play the game more effectively and efficiently with the internet in this era.

Thus, if one is in parliament, whether it is NCMP or MP, the leverage is even bigger! Unless you are going to sit through parliamentary sittings keeping your lips sealed, I don't see why you can't contribute more as NCMP or MP.

There is no law that says that you cannot walk into any constituency to COMMUNICATE to voters on the ground. Well, as I have said, new generation of voters do not really need you to write letters for them, they could write all the letters they want. What is needed is EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION MEANS on the ground.

It doesn't mean that if you are not running the town councils, you cannot contribute to the people's welfare as NCMP or otherwise. There are 1001 ways to skin the cat... there are 1001 ways to do it right on the ground.

"Novelty" could only last you that long. But I think your assessment of Sylvia may be a bit off. It is about consistency on both fronts. The ground as well as parliamentary exposures. Sylvia has been consistent on the ground, though some people like you may not think highly about her performance in parliament.

As for Steve Chia, unfortunately the maid saga might have prevented him from getting more votes. However, in spite of that, he has gained the national average vote swing of about 5%. Not so bad in view of what he has gone through over that period.

Goh Meng Seng

I have no idea what you mean when you state that Sylvia has been consistent on the ground. I met Sylvia at least on 2 different occasions on the ground at Blk 631, Bedok Reservoir Road and at Blk 616 where the PAP centre is located and each time I mentioned minority grievances she walked away stating she is pressed for time. Your fat arse was there at the very coffee-shop at 631 in 2006 when i pointedly questioned Sylvia and as I recall you were grinning like an idiot with no opinion whatsoever.

Perhaps that was what you meant by being consistent?

 

[yellow_people]

The reserve seats in parliament for minorities is not something "Chinese extremist" invented. This system has been used in many 1st world countries for decades already likewise proportional representation

PR = 1 Man 1 Vote, No Wasted Votes.

we know why GRC are invented, it's not for multi-racial platform.
and PR can co-exist with GRC plurality elections too.

Well something tells me that the Communist is having a hard time contesting in multi-cultural Singapore. At the very least you Ah Bengs can be honest about it. Why is it at Chinese oriented parties liek NSP and WP has just a hard time attracting minority candidates?

What is your opinion on ethnic housing quota? How in the world is the minority to be represented or vote in a Chink system such as the one you propose when he is segregated by racial quota?

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Meng Seng, you are as stupid as you are dishonest. We had a discussion on s.c.s several years ago regarding "No China maids" and your vehement reply was there was no racial discrimination in Singapore. You went by the moniker of MADCOW and from the onset I knew you were one of the "regime change" Ah Bengs. So please stop saying Mah BT is the one in trouble. I have not even started with you yet.

It is understandable for your frustration here because you are basically grasping straws. If you want to believe there are racial discrimination, you will always fit anything, everything into that mold. You were arguing something else, the whole system is discriminating people of your community. But let's open your eyes. There is a steady growth in the middle class in your community. So it begs the question, if you are so right about racial discrimination back then, how could such middle class grow in size?

Empirical evidence has proven otherwise unless you want to argue with reality. As I have stated long ago, education is the only means of equalizer, a means for people to climb the social ladder. We are having a growth of middle class in your community basically due to the contribution of the general rise in educational level. Although, in relative terms, some studies have found that your community is still lagging behind in terms of median income but the rise in the middle class is real.

In relative terms, I have also shown you that in comparison to Malaysia's system, Singapore fair much better without some racially based policies which economically disadvantaged the minority here. In contrary, Singapore civil service is more open in its employment policy.

You have totally mistaken about the problems that your community faced. It is not so much of discrimination but rather the increasing number of dysfunctional families which keep them in the poverty trap. This is something that need urgent attention.

Please help yourself, don't contest in the next GE. You are living in your own imaginary presumptuous world. Politics of hatred and vengeance, especially racially based, may be the easiest way out for people who don't really understand policy analytical perspective, but it will not only be divisive but damaging to the social fabrics.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[yellow_people]

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH SCROOBAL ; IN FACT I STRONGLY BELIEVE THE GRC SYSTEM MUST BE SCRAPPED ALTOGEHTER AND WE SHOULD REVERT TO THE FIRST-PAST-THE-POST ELECTORAL SYSTEM IN ORDER TO BE FAIR TO ALL PARTIES, INCLUDING INDEPENDENTS.

The Chink extremist are not arguing for a FPTP system in case you haven't noticed. They are arguing for a 75% Chinese dominated seat under the proportional system. If the minority citizen surrender that right, they should jolly well leave Singapore as this island will be another communist regime.

 

[Sideswipe]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with NCMP... except that it has been mistakenly undermined by PAP. I would fight for FULL RIGHTS for NCMP. As a believer in proportional representation, NCMP should be granted full rights just like full MPs. In fact, in a proportional representation system, the so call "NCMPs" who get lesser than majority votes, are in fact rightfully elected MPs.

NCMPs are election losers that are given a backdoor to parliament. They are not MPs. NCMPs and NMPs should be given titles like observers in Parliament.

I support PR too but it should be a second vote for Party-list proportional representation.
The party list MP are called Nationwide MPs.

regarding Steve Chia. Bros here said he preformed admirably in Parliament. But really how many peasants know what he did in Parliament? I don't know, the great majority of peasants don't and are not interested to know. It's not his fault too. Nobody know what the PAP MPs do in Parliament too. I don't know if being a NCMP will help in winning future elections.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I have no idea what you mean when you state that Sylvia has been consistent on the ground. I met Sylvia at least on 2 different occasions on the ground at Blk 631, Bedok Reservoir Road and at Blk 616 where the PAP centre is located and each time I mentioned minority grievances she walked away stating she is pressed for time. Your fat arse was there at the very coffee-shop at 631 in 2006 when i pointedly questioned Sylvia and as I recall you were grinning like an idiot with no opinion whatsoever.

Perhaps that was what you meant by being consistent?

You mean it is not a sign of consistency when you met her twice on the ground? How often do you meet your MPs in coffeeshops?

Your grievances are all about "discrimination". Anything, everything can be blamed on "discrimination". So? If your mind is already closed for other possibilities, what do you expect her to respond to you?

I played a supporting role in GE 2006 and obviously, I would let Sylvia handled situation like this one. Sorry that I couldn't remember what you say back then. But I can understand Sylvia's stand, not to argue with a angry man.

Goh Meng Seng