New Romance of 3 Kingdom serial drama is out

[SNAblog]

I watching at Sina, fucking slow, me using Mac leh, you where? dun tell me youtube -_-"

http://www.youtube.com/user/MyChineseDrama#g/c/D7769D8968CFBA23

Latest episode uploaded is 32.

This channel has other prc drama, like yang gui fei, journey to the west etc.....

 

[RonRon]

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[Subok]

80% disagree with your point of view of Cao Cao, Liu Bei and Zhuge.

I agree Cao Cao was ruthless at times, but he's definitely not a tyrant, if he is, why he still got so many generals and strategists following him?

Benevolence doesnt always make a good leader, Wise ruler? Liu Bei dun even have a place and always on the run until after Chibi battle, he still have to 借荆州 to expand his territory.

You think at Ba Shu, the native people support him? Definitely not, because Liu Bei and the gangs are still invaders.

What merits does Zhuge have during his younger days? 隆中对? Chibi battle? The one who really won the battle for the Liu/Sun army is 鲁肃, he's the one who initiate to join forces.

Zhuge greatest achievement is the way he governs Shu after Liu Bei died, that i acknowledge his wisdom. Other than that, nothing really.

Regarding 白帝托孤
"就是白帝托孤时，刘备对诸葛亮的军事才能也并不认同。刘备临终时，他心目中比诸葛亮更加重要的臣子，如关羽、张飞、庞统、法正、黄权等，死的死，走的走，他才"托孤于诸葛亮，尚书令李严为副"。但并非让诸葛亮负责军事，而是以从未进入过权利中心的政治新秀李严列为 两名托孤重臣之一，并且命其"统内外军事 "。实际上让诸葛亮负责民政，而让李严负责军事。"

In Liu Bei deathbed, he told Zhuge:" 如其不才，君可自取“
There are 2 meaning in "取", 1 is "you can take". another is "you can nominate another of my son".

Liu Bei already knew Zhuge wont take the throne, but why he said that? Very simple answer, he dont trust Zhuge at all, when they 1st met, till the day he died. In 三国志, the relationship between Zhuge and Liu Bei is not as close as we think really.

There will always be a split in the middle as to who favours who and sometimes all it takes is we agree to disagree.

It is not what the romance version of RTK that beautified the relationship between Zhuge Liang and Liu Bei but rather even the chronicles recorded as such. A visit to the Temple dedicated to Zhuge Liang will emplify that indeed there were in existence a special relationship between them.

However, as I had rightly highlighted, it is still debated till this day that whether at the death bed of Liu Bei, those words displayed mistrust in Zhuge Liang or a total surrender to Zhuge Liang.

I am of the view that Liu Bei meant to have Zhuge Liang take over the leadership of Shu Kingdom, but in return instead he gained back even more, Zhuge Liang commitment and loyalty to Liu Bei. Such is the character of Liu Bei. Some may perceive it as conniving but I may be bordering bias-ness here, as I perceived, it is consistent to Liu bei's character and other actions, he always put others before himself again and again. Many even today and even some on this forum speak ill of Liu Bei as a simpleton, useless and attained nothing in his reign. But I would defer largely on the grounds that since Guan Yu, Zhang Fei and the others in the 5 tigers Generals league, ascribed to Liu Bei's leadership, speaks voluminous.

If Ba Shu hated Liu Bei, they would had dug and defaced the tomb like they used to in history of many emperors. That is why till today Shi Huang Di tomb exact location is still a mystery. Not only Liu Bei's tomb was well kept and though like many other past emperors who have a few tombs in their name to discourage would be tomb raiders as well as their haters.

Not only Liu Bei's tomb was well kept, the people of Chengdu refused any archaeological work to be done to the tomb. One of the tomb believed to be inside the Temple WuHou Shi where he was buried with his wife, Xiao Qiao.

What merits Zhuge Liang attained? To least one of the major merits IMHO is to win a war without a soldier, through sheer wits and "borrowed" forces. Though Yi Jin was already in circulation as well as SunZi art of war, it was Zhuge Liang who personifies and amplifies both the ancient chinese chronicles through his leadership and military strategic-ism in the era of three kingdoms. He epoch them.

I would not go so far as to say Zhuge Liang is THE greatest man during the era of warring states but certainly he WAS ONE of them among all the giants. Many of our points of views can be subjective but I draw my conclusions from circumstantial evidences such as the historical relics of current time, those recorded in the Chinese chronicles as well as oral tradition history.

Personally, I think most people would readily agree with you that " Liu Bei dun even have a place and always on the run until after Chibi battle, he still have to 借荆州 to expand his territory" - true. But sometimes it is not the result but the process in history that intricate us. The Sima(s) was obviously the black horse in this part of China's history during the warring states but rarely we hear about the "ending" of the era of warring states of how the Sima Yi eventually planned and plotted for his own descendants to ascend to the throne. What we do often remember and speak of when mention of RTK is the brotherly love and pledges made at the peach garden, the wits and wisdom of Zhuge Liang, the bravery of Zhao Zilong, etc etc. and Sima's achievement seem to dwarfs all of them.

Let me review a bit more about some of the reasons why Zhuge Liang choose Chengdu as the capital state of Ba Shu aka Szechuan. Zhuge Liang a learned scholar and well versed in geography knew Chengdu sits in the centre of a valley surrounded by mountains making Chengdu land very fertile and irrigated due to the humility. Zhuge Liang often advocates that an army must be supported by a strong agriculture and granaries. Chengdu being a basin sits right in the middle of such geographical advantage for agricultural developments to support the army. The tall mountainous surrounding make Chengdu an ideal location for a fortified city - posing difficulties for any invading enemies. And to top it all, a little known FACT that many do not know why Zhuge Liang chose Chengdu was Zhuge Liang knew that Chengdu sits on a plateau of a volcanic plate. notice ON the plateau and not along the fault lines of the volcanic plates. During those days, in many parts of China, many areas were prone to natural calamities such as earthquakes disasters. Only few learned scholars such as Zhuge Liang studied in great details the science, geography and combination with the ancient teachings of yin yang, fengshui etc of a location. When a city is chosen, many factors were considered and studied and not like our town council kind of town planning etc. Zhuge Liang took in not only the Feng Shui aspects but the geographical conditions as well as the volcanic plates, believe it or not. That is the reason why many of the ancient chinese capitals are still standing strong today despite the FACT that there were many volcanic plates in the country of China alone, because the ancient scholars also knew of such volcanic plates but perhaps in other forms. It is unheard of that a any capital of any dynasty were destroyed by earthquakes.

You may say that I am bullshitting and how I explained the recent Szechuan quake? That is precisely WHERE the evidence lies!

Szechuan as a whole were prone to earthquakes, and many of the badly hit like Bei Chuan etc were sitting NEAR or ON the volcanic fault WHILE Chengdu is SPARED of all the disasters effected by an earthquakes. What Chengdu experienced were MILD shakes and dislodging of lamb posts and tress that causes death to those who escaped from the shaking building. Death counts in Chengdu CITY alone numbers only a couple of hundreds due to accidental death cause by the earthquakes.

2 reasons why the other area of Szechuan were badly hit by the earthquakes was because:-

1. These are areas ON or near the volcanic fault stress line.

2. As these areas move further away from the municipal control of the central government of Chengdu, many contractors flawed on the strict building regulations due to the lax control. This explained why a new school collapsed to the ground after the earthquake while other older buildings next to it still stand strong.

Zhuge Liang is not HALF PASS SEVEN as make of you would make it out to be. Rather, I think he is half pass seven mark to even attaining the title of a living sage of his time. His achievements WERE not blown out of proportions but those appropriated accordingly to what was recorded and stood to the test of history and time.

Yes, Liu Zhang was the originate Lord of Shu but it was under Liu Bei that Shu were epitomized as a strong state. Likewise it was Parameswara that founded the original Temesek but it was Sir Raffles and later Mr LKY that amplified and took advantage of Singapore geographical location and makes it the most developed developing country of her time. I think "pay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" credit where credit is due rather than to our whimsical "which super heroes" we love.

 

[Alamaking]

1) There will always be a split in the middle as to who favours who and sometimes all it takes is we agree to disagree.

However, as I had rightly highlighted, it is still debated till this day that whether at the death bed of Liu Bei, those words displayed mistrust in Zhuge Liang or a total surrender to Zhuge Liang.

I am of the view that Liu Bei meant to have Zhuge Liang take over the leadership of Shu Kingdom, but in return instead he gained back even more, Zhuge Liang commitment and loyalty to Liu Bei. Such is the character of Liu Bei. Some may perceive it as conniving but I may be bordering bias-ness here, as I perceived, it is consistent to Liu bei's character and other actions, he always put others before himself again and again. Many even today and even some on this forum speak ill of Liu Bei as a simpleton, useless and attained nothing in his reign. But I would defer largely on the grounds that since 2) Guan Yu, Zhang Fei and the others in the 5 tigers Generals league, ascribed to Liu Bei's leadership, speaks voluminous.

3) If Ba Shu hated Liu Bei, they would had dug and defaced the tomb like they used to in history of many emperors. That is why till today Shi Huang Di tomb exact location is still a mystery. Not only Liu Bei's tomb was well kept and though like many other past emperors who have a few tombs in their name to discourage would be tomb raiders as well as their haters.

Not only Liu Bei's tomb was well kept, the people of Chengdu refused any archaeological work to be done to the tomb. One of the tomb believed to be inside the Temple WuHou Shi where he was buried with his wife, 4) Xiao Qiao (????).

I would not go so far as to say Zhuge Liang is THE greatest man during the era of warring states but certainly he WAS ONE of them among all the giants. Many of our points of views can be subjective but I draw my conclusions from circumstantial evidences such as the historical relics of current time, those recorded in the Chinese chronicles as well as oral tradition history.

Personally, I think most people would readily agree with you that " Liu Bei dun even have a place and always on the run until after Chibi battle, he still have to 借荆州 to expand his territory" - true. But sometimes it is not the result but the process in history that intricate us.What we do often remember and speak of when mention of RTK is the brotherly love and pledges made at the peach garden, the wits and wisdom of Zhuge Liang, the bravery of Zhao Zilong, etc etc. and Sima's achievement seem to dwarfs all of them.

5) Zhuge Liang is not HALF PASS SEVEN as make of you would make it out to be. Rather, I think he is half pass seven mark to even attaining the title of a living sage of his time. His achievements WERE not blown out of proportions but those appropriated accordingly to what was recorded and stood to the test of history and time.

Wow, are you a fan of 罗贯中 (三国演义)? did you ever read the history of 三国志? Let me explain to you point by point:
1) Yes, there is a split between people believing in 三国, is either fantasy or history, your's apparently fantasy.

2) In 三国志, there's only so called 4 Tigers, Guan Yu on the left, Zhang Fei on the right, Ma Chao in front, Huang Zhong at the back. Zhao Yun is widely used by Zhuge, not Liu Bei.

3) I never say Ba Shu hated Liu Bei, i'm saying they never support Liu Bei, especially financially. Who would want to support a lord invading your own land? Shu was doomed to perish sooner or later, Zhuge managed to prolong it.

After the big battle with Wu at Yiling battle, Shu was in a very bad state, immediately after Liu Bei's funeral, Zhuge ask for a truce with Wu. Lu Su, prime minister of Wu was invited to Shu to sign the peace treaty, when he was his way back to Wu, he saw the poverty state of Shu and tell Sun Quan :"This nation is doomed, Shu is not a threat to Wu anymore", Lu Su was right, Shu was the 1st nation to perish 1st.

SO, even if Zhuge become the emperor of Shu, he cannot save Shu from being perished. Why? there are hierarchy in Shu government.
1) 1st generation officials - Guan Yu, Zhang fei, Fa Zhen, Zhuge, Zhao Yun, Ma Chao, Guan Xin, Pang Tong etc etc
2) 2nd generation officials - Jiang Wei, Wei Yan, Li Yan, Ma Dai, Ma Liang (these generals were recruited during the forming of Shu.) (Wei Yan and Ma Liang were beheaded, Li Yan was demoted to commoner)
3) 3rd generation officials - the riches, the warlords, the origins in Ba Shu itself.

Of these 3 hierarchy, Zhuge can only trust the 1st generation officials, the other 2 are not 100% behind him, especially the 3rd generations, because they are the origins of Ba Shu, why should they listen to invaders? so they always vote against Zhuge decisions.

So Zhuge have to make every decisions by himself and enforce it. Zhuge died at 53 because he tires himself out, because he cannot trust anybody.

4) Xiao Qiao?????

5) errr... I didnt say Zhuge is half pass seven, i'm saying his reign as prime minister in Shu was his greatest achievement during that era. His lost to Sima Yi six times in a row showed that he wasnt a great strategist at all, thats a fact :p

 

[Ramseth]

赵云 was a 战将 like 吕布 not a 将领。Of course he's far more righteous and loyal. But on record, he commanded no major battle. 长坂坡 was only a rescue and retreat mission. 马超 and 黄忠 were serious battlefield commanders. 关羽 and 张飞 were also craps, but given the honours due to nepotism as sworn brothers to 刘备。

诸葛亮 used 赵云 extensively before and after the death of 刘备，for the exact reason that he's a good fighter, loyal and good at carrying out commands without questioning or deliberating.

 

[Maximilian Chua-Heng]

Alamaking,

you mislead people with your thread title in the 1st place lah.

It's not Romance of the 3 Kingdoms, just 3 Kingdoms lah.

P/S Any expert care to advice on how to delete ownself threads and/or thread titles? Last I know you cannot do either. :(

 

[Alamaking]

Alamaking,

you mislead people with your thread title in the 1st place lah.

It's not Romance of the 3 Kingdoms, just 3 Kingdoms lah.

P/S Any expert care to advice on how to delete ownself threads and/or thread titles? Last I know you cannot do either. :(

Maxi, this serial is still based on 三国演义 lah :p

 

[Maximilian Chua-Heng]

Maxi, this serial is still based on 三国演义 lah :p

I cannot disagree with you but I'd try watching the "new" 三国 with minimal baggage.

Some more comments on the new 三国 drama:

1. I don't like the new Zhang Fei portrayed, always KPKB, talk very loudly.

2. The show leaves us with no uncertainty that Yuan Shao is a flip-flopper, tinker man, U-turn guy etc (u get the idea). Overdone and getting tedious.

Tha's all for now.

 

[Alamaking]

I cannot disagree with you but I'd try watching the "new" 三国 with minimal baggage.

Some more comments on the new 三国 drama:

1. I don't like the new Zhang Fei portrayed, always KPKB, talk very loudly.

2. The show leaves us with no uncertainty that Yuan Shao is a flip-flopper, tinker man, U-turn guy etc (u get the idea). Overdone and getting tedious.

Tha's all for now.

I agree with you. Today no new episode huh? 11pm liao, still dun have....

 

[Alamaking]

http://www.youtube.com/user/MyChineseDrama#g/c/D7769D8968CFBA23

Latest episode uploaded is 32.

This channel has other prc drama, like yang gui fei, journey to the west etc.....

Wah, how come he so fast? Thanks SNA

 

[Maximilian Chua-Heng]

I agree with you. Today no new episode huh? 11pm liao, still dun have....

I watching Ep 27 now. Go get a PC and you won't look back...

 

[Maximilian Chua-Heng]

Wah, how come he so fast? Thanks SNA

Yang Gui Fei indeed is updated to Ep 32 liao. He is not wrong.

 

[Alamaking]

Why does this scene reminds me of Planet of the Apes har? LOL

Why Jia Xu havent appear yet? knn.....

 

[Alamaking]

Awesome scenes from Guandu Battle, doesnt look like CGI, too blur, cant confirm, LOL

 

[Subok]

Wow, are you a fan of 罗贯中 (三国演义)? did you ever read the history of 三国志? Let me explain to you point by point:
1) Yes, there is a split between people believing in 三国, is either fantasy or history, your's apparently fantasy.

With great respect and apologies, though I do not fit as an apologist for Zhuge Liang but sad to say much of your apparent claims that some are fantasy, well I do know some are ideals perpetuated by the author of the Romanticized version of the chronicles for Warring Era. But perhaps you would want to spot out specifically which is "fantasy" in your point of view and my error as a dumbbell.

2) In 三国志, there's only so called 4 Tigers, Guan Yu on the left, Zhang Fei on the right, Ma Chao in front, Huang Zhong at the back. Zhao Yun is widely used by Zhuge, not Liu Bei.

Well whether 4 or 5 is not the KEY issue at cost here, the key issue at cost here is the APPARENT unwavering loyalty of these "tigers" whether 4 or 5. I am of the opinion that if they 4/5 "tigers" certainly men of their times, pledged loyalty to Liu Bei, then I of "lower" birth hold their decision of high regards. And therefore in that sense, Liu Bei is to be held in high regards. In simpler layman term, if your grandfather, your great grandfather, "juo gong" "juo Ma", holds certain value in high regards, then with sufficient evidence, so is your consent to be paralleled to that of your ancestors.

3) I never say Ba Shu hated Liu Bei, i'm saying they never support Liu Bei, especially financially. Who would want to support a lord invading your own land? Shu was doomed to perish sooner or later, Zhuge managed to prolong it..

Whether you believe in the actual chronicles or the romanticized version, I think the best evidence to debunk your point of views would be the Chengdu yesterday, TODAY, and Tomorrow.

Zhuge Liang already envisioned the economic viability of Chengdu and it sits right smack in the heart of CHINA. In fact, Chengdu connects directly to all major cities in China as a centre. The Silk road cuts through Chengdu. It is the GATEWAY to the entire nation via the HEART of the country.

And just fyi, CHENGDU today is the 3rd City with largest Mobile phone owners, 2nd City with Largest private cars ownership. Its domestic consumption for one particular industry alone is MORE than SINGAPORE's GDP!!!! of =/1 SGD140BILLION.

After the big battle with Wu at Yiling battle, Shu was in a very bad state, immediately after Liu Bei's funeral, Zhuge ask for a truce with Wu. Lu Su, prime minister of Wu was invited to Shu to sign the peace treaty, when he was his way back to Wu, he saw the poverty state of Shu and tell Sun Quan :"This nation is doomed, Shu is not a threat to Wu anymore", Lu Su was right, Shu was the 1st nation to perish 1st.

Zhuge Liang was adamant to fulfill his Lord wishes to unite the whole China under Han dynasty again at almost all cost.

You should read the 出阵录/on Wu Hou Shi's wall, the passion, the love, the eloquence, the love for the country to fully grasp the tension at that time. This was a man truly moved by clear objectives in life.

SO, even if Zhuge become the emperor of Shu, he cannot save Shu from being perished. Why? there are hierarchy in Shu government.
1) 1st generation officials - Guan Yu, Zhang fei, Fa Zhen, Zhuge, Zhao Yun, Ma Chao, Guan Xin, Pang Tong etc etc
2) 2nd generation officials - Jiang Wei, Wei Yan, Li Yan, Ma Dai, Ma Liang (these generals were recruited during the forming of Shu.) (Wei Yan and Ma Liang were beheaded, Li Yan was demoted to commoner)
3) 3rd generation officials - the riches, the warlords, the origins in Ba Shu itself.

Of these 3 hierarchy, Zhuge can only trust the 1st generation officials, the other 2 are not 100% behind him, especially the 3rd generations, because they are the origins of Ba Shu, why should they listen to invaders? so they always vote against Zhuge decisions.

So Zhuge have to make every decisions by himself and enforce it. Zhuge died at 53 because he tires himself out, because he cannot trust anybody..

4) Xiao Qiao?????

5) errr... I didnt say Zhuge is half pass seven, i'm saying his reign as prime minister in Shu was his greatest achievement during that era. His lost to Sima Yi six times in a row showed that he wasnt a great strategist at all, thats a fact :p

Since you touched on a hypothetical assumption here, then I shall also hypothetically reply to your assumption that had Zhuge Liang had it his ways, Sima Yi would have long fall under Zhuge Liang. Sima Yi knew he was not Zhuge Liang equal. Even at his death, Zhuge Liang was able to hold off Sima Yi hot pursued.

The infamous last 7 military campaigns led by Zhuge Liang were plagued by courts politics which Sima Yi orchestrated indirectly to divert Zhuge Liang furies. Even Cao Cao foresaw the deviant-ness of Sima Yi and ordered his son never to use this general. If even Cao Cao could see that Sima Yi
心速不正， and if you held Cao Cao in high regards then you too should subscribe to Cao Cao's opinion of Sima Yi.

In the art of war, strategies or military maneuver counts for half of the battle. Zhuge Liang was not lacking in strategies against Sima Yi but the former outmaneuvered Zhuge Liang via politics not entire through military.

Zhuge Liang did tire himself out but I do not think that it was because of his mistrust but rather of his onus to bear the weight of the entire military campaign himself for fear that other generals could fail thus threatening the entire mission. I would suspect few were as tacit and fluid as he was in militarism. There were principles that he could explain to layman especially in areas like science and geography.

Like for example = did he really borrow the East Wind from the Gods or he just simply knew of the change in wind direction coming soon?

Actually Chinese harbors many great scientific knowledge even before so call "pendulum theorem" came into being. If you look closely at the Chinese almanac, weathers prediction were already incorporated in them and they are still precise even till TODAY. Chinese physicians depended on these forth-knowledge of weather to prescribe medicine according to the weather as humidity will affect certain prescribe medication.

Zhuge Liang in his advance knowledge of the forth coming weather knew the east wind will be blowing soon but scholars in Cao Cao's camp probably not as advance as Zhuge Liang stated otherwise hence giving Cao Cao false confidence that enemy would never use fire to attack his chained naval fleet. Zhuge Liang then could not just go around telling the generals or Zhou yu "according to my knowledge and studies -- ying yang. .bla bla bla - east wind will be blowing ...". He had to use methods believable then to convince them, which was pagan worship and pagan-styled prayers to ask for east wind from heaven.

Hence, in short, as much as I wished I am worthy being an apologist of Zhuge Liang, I think I am far from that and unworthy even to say I adores him dearly. But, you my worthy learned friend, are fixated on your point of views with glimpses of history and without considering the actual standing of CHENGDU today. Much like Parameswara did not capitalize on Temesek potential.

I am inclined to believe, Chengdu today stand as a living testament to Zhuge Liang's lifetime work.

Somehow, you gave me the impression that you belongs to the camp of people whom I would call the "darth vader" sympathizers. Those who somewhat saw the "good" in the evil while those who idolizes Luke Skywalkers are the weaker race refusing to see the inevitable collapse of the Empire.

In conclusion, I dare not go up "Liang" mountain without 三两三 but certainly my penny worth weights a little heavier than your pound wisdom as your rebuttal were narrowed at a few instances of what I call "hypothetical point of disagreement" while ignoring other major aspects of historical and most importantly CURRENT records for/against Zhuge Liang.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9id-x6Psg9s

as it was said : - "may the force be with you"

 

[Ramseth]

吕布 was the ultimate hero according to 曹操。

He said 人中吕布，马中赤兔 when giving the horse to 关羽。

He had no doubt that 吕布 could kill 关羽。But he liked 关羽 for his sense of loyalty.

It was the only gift from him that 关羽 accepted.

 

[Alamaking]

Somehow, you gave me the impression that you belongs to the camp of people whom I would call the "darth vader" sympathizers. Those who somewhat saw the "good" in the evil while those who idolizes Luke Skywalkers are the weaker race refusing to see the inevitable collapse of the Empire.

In conclusion, I dare not go up "Liang" mountain without 三两三 but certainly my penny worth weights a little heavier than your pound wisdom as your rebuttal were narrowed at a few instances of what I call "hypothetical point of disagreement" while ignoring other major aspects of historical and most importantly CURRENT records for/against Zhuge Liang.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9id-x6Psg9s

as it was said : - "may the force be with you"

Erm, very simple question, did you read 三国志 by 裴松 and 陈寿? or you just think you watched VCD 4 times and visit to Chengdu is enough for you to fully understand the whole history of 三国? hahaha I admit i still dunno most of the details, i have doubts also, thats why i asked and some of the bros here corrected me

1st you say 5 tigers, then now you say 4-5 tigers doesnt matter, as long as they are loyal to Liu Bei, so what i said is correct right?

So i'm on the dark side, then you on the bright side? LOL

Pls lah, talk about Chengdu, passage to the Silk road already exist before the three kingdoms. And Chengdu current economy must thanks to Zhuge also? LOL. And i said again, Zhuge excels in managing Shu, i said that 3 times liao, why you keep saying about Chengdu? LOL

Yes, Chendu got monastries to remember all these great people, but how many people really know them well? I suggest you go revisit Chengdu again, LOL

I used to idolise Liu Bei and Zhuge too, but after i read 三国志, they are not as great as i thought. For you to say 曹操 was a sore loser already know you read 三国演义 but not 三国志.

 

[Alamaking]

In conclusion, I dare not go up "Liang" mountain without 三两三 but certainly my penny worth weights a little heavier than your pound wisdom as your rebuttal were narrowed at a few instances of what I call "hypothetical point of disagreement" while ignoring other major aspects of historical and most importantly CURRENT records for/against Zhuge Liang.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9id-x6Psg9s

as it was said : - "may the force be with you"

And im surprise you you gave me the link to yi zhong tian bai jia jiang tan, you mean you dun agree with him that Cao Cao is the hero of that times? LOL
I dun think yi zhong tian ever mentioned Cao Cao was a sore loser, LOL

 

[Subok]

Apologies, I read the chronicles.

Temesek was there even before Stamford Raffles and LKY so what are you extrapolating?

YOu had missed so many of the key points but choose to dwell on finite details that "may" proof to be your advantage.

Had you been to Chengdu BTW? I sincerely doubt so.

Were you able to draw the conclusion about the earthquakes?

Were you able to link the economic realisation of Zhuge's dream to current Chengdu just as can you debunk Mr LKY leadership to Singapore's achievement?

As I had said 5 or 4 tigers is not the KEY or cornerstone of the entire chronicles but rather the unwavering loyalty and abilities of these men under Liu Bei.

Whether dark or bright, your objective is "to win the arguments" but I tell you today, you lose the "war".

Go DEEPER into your HISTORICAL reading and CURRENT AFFAIRS. As much as I would regard you as a worthy intellectual opponent as per regards to your understanding of the warring eras, I realised all that you put forth were just skirmishes of the water surface, ripples with no splash and in our today language, smoke screen to divert attention.

You claim you read and concluded that Cao Cao is good then please put forth your thesis. It is like a small kid playing card game telling other players "I got a card bigger than yours! but you show me yours first... Oh yours "J"? mine bigger! yours? "Queen"? ahahah mine still bigger... "

Show us your cards prove me wrong. Please do not go into details like 4 or 5 tigers which is not the issue at hand.

I had kindly paste a link of a reputable, well research and documented talk show in China for your "fantasy" enquiry and I am sure the professor in this field would enlighten you.

 

[Maximilian Chua-Heng]

Alamaking and Subok,

我们“煮酒论英雄”，开心就好！