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Lim Chin Siong was a Communist

Nice-Gook

Alfrescian
Loyal
Scroobol is swinging from a broad definition of communism and sometimes selectively to suit her agenda . .Perhaps flipping through some pages of our local history could help us to see through her obfuscation .

This is where the matter of Goh Keng Swee is of importance.Goh was first and foremost a unionist along with K.M.Bryne,G.Kandasamy ,Ismail Rahim and etc. who all played a leading role in the formation of PAP--Emphasis on all being trade unionists.Only than they became aware that trade unions has to operate in a framework determined by politics.So why not play politics and form a political party itself.There ! you have the seeds for the birth of PAP.It was only in 1953-1954 that LKY came in contact with unions of public employees as a legal adviser and thereafter slept together...

Now look at how Goh's pattern of thoughts changes--First as a unionist fighting for more and more and than when in the seat of power.


In 1959 the PAP government had found itself in charge of a Singapore of one and a half million persons, 75 percent of them Chinese, and half 16 years of age or younger. As Goh said at the time, "What is regrettable is that the parents of Singapore in the past sixteen years have been so prolific in their capacity as parents that they have created a problem of terrifying dimensions." With overcrowded slums, large numbers of unemployed, and youth coming into the labor force at the rate of 40-50,000 a year, Singapore, as Goh clearly recognized, was "no place for normal socialist economic planning."---(--Note the direct contradiction of the present PAP policies which places the onus and responsibility directly on the local parents for not producing enough babies and uses that as an excuse to flood Singapore with foreigners.)

Than Goh said later in a speech to the Economics Society "Modern ideals of liberalism, egalitarian ideals, welfare state concepts proliferate trade unions whose main purpose is to get more pay for less work.will not work for Singapore":eek::confused::mad::eek:
 
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scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Thats something that I found in Singaporeans in general. They actually think that Communist is equivalent to a rapist or axe murderer.

If someone yelled at me " you are a bloody communist" for putting across a suggestion on social reforms, I would treat that as high honour.



Reading some of the posts here, I can't help but agree.

Many sinkaporeans still don't realise that the HDB (public housing) stems from a Communist concept.

All you guys associate Communism with is Kim Jong Il, Mao and Stalin. Pathetic.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
I am unable to address your concern presently as I am busy at the Collective Farm in Orchard Road tilling the land. The water buffalo which is owned by the Collective Farm does not seem to respond to me productively as I suspect that so many people use it and its feels abused. There is no motivation on its part.

I spoke to a chap called Chin Peng, who told me that his job is to deliver communism but he has no idea how it works. He feels a bit lost because revolution ended. Anyway he says he is happy that his son graduated with a law degree from the UK- the home of communism. I spoke to a chap called Devan and without listening to me, he said that they will handle all negotiations with employers. I asked him what "employers" and he told me that was not the issue. He too was happy as one son works for McKinsey and they too are communist. And all his kids are either in the States or Canada which are also communist.

Distraught, I sought a sago making towkay called Kim San. This bloody capitalist leech was so arrogant by telling me that he is busy building thousands of homes for people. Later I found that he drew a small salary and nothing to do with profits. I then thought that he was communist.

My school friend told me that I was wrong. Communist are social activist that meant harm to the ruling regime. So I asked how can you spot a communist. He told me " easy" - just read the Straits Times. They are experts.



Scroobol is swinging from a broad definition of communism and sometimes selectively to suit her agenda . .Perhaps flipping through some pages of our local history could help us to see through her obfuscation .
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Great observation. Its was indeed a great social endeavour and amazingly led by a firmest of capitalist in the old guard - Lim Kim San.

Many sinkaporeans still don't realise that the HDB (public housing) stems from a Communist concept.

 

Ah Guan

Alfrescian
Loyal
Thats something that I found in Singaporeans in general. They actually think that Communist is equivalent to a rapist or axe murderer.

If someone yelled at me " you are a bloody communist" for putting across a suggestion on social reforms, I would treat that as high honour.

I blame it on the Rambo movies as much as the Old Man for poisoning sinkaporean minds. No wonder sinkaporeans are called political retards by Taiwanese and Hongkies.

If you want another example of PAP's early Communist ways, think no further than JTC -- infrastructure developer for industries --- a classic centrally planned or 2nd World economic system. In a free market, infrastructure development companies would be owned by people like Donald Trump.

"Communism" is many things at once - a political ideal, a system of rule, an economic theory etc. The fact is Old Man and Lim Chin Siong flew the same Red flag during the 50s because it was the polar opposite of British Colonialism they were trying to overthrow.

What happened subsequently, is where the real debate should be...
 

ozeman

Alfrescian
Loyal
Since it is obvious, name us one living Economist who is a communist.

ps. there are thousands of communists who call themselves economist, lecture economics bu they are in China, Russia and North Korea. It quite a different thing similar to Communist countries in the past who love to have "democratic" is their official country name.

Prabhat Patnaik, CPI (M) member and noted Indian Economist. I believe he is still living and working as an economic commentator and academic. If you border to google I am sure you will find many more! Being communist and an economist is not mutually exclusive!!
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Bro, you are back. Thought I lost you last week. Yes, they are indeed excellent examples of a centrally planned economy. There was a economics seminar years ago and one speaker said that if Karl Marx was vain and he woke up from his grave, he would immediately say that Singapore was a communist country while Russia, China, North Korea were totalitarian regimes.

They were waving the same "red flag" also because it attracted the majority and established a political power base.


I blame it on the Rambo movies as much as the Old Man for poisoning sinkaporean minds. No wonder sinkaporeans are called political retards by Taiwanese and Hongkies.

If you want another example of PAP's early Communist ways, think no further than JTC -- infrastructure developer for industries --- a classic centrally planned or 2nd World economic system. In a free market, infrastructure development companies would be owned by people like Donald Trump.

"Communism" is many things at once - a political ideal, a system of rule, an economic theory etc. The fact is Old Man and Lim Chin Siong flew the same Red flag during the 50s because it was the polar opposite of British Colonialism they were trying to overthrow.

What happened subsequently, is where the real debate should be...
 

ozeman

Alfrescian
Loyal
Since it is obvious, name us one living Economist who is a communist.

ps. there are thousands of communists who call themselves economist, lecture economics bu they are in China, Russia and North Korea. It quite a different thing similar to Communist countries in the past who love to have "democratic" is their official country name.

Isn't that obvious. UK, OZ, Canada are core capitalist market driven economies but they they an excellent welfare system that is practically cradle to grave.

Do you call the above mentioned countries communist, neo communist, pseudo communist, part communist, grey communist, a bit communist. a shade of communism.


they are all welfare states. nothing to do with communism.

btw, what has that got to do with communism being a failed notion???:wink:
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Alamak bro, I might as well give you the name of neighbour's bedridden aunty who thinks that she is astronaut albeit you can't find her in google.

Out of every 1,000 doctors, there will be at least one oddball who should not be allowed to practice.

Give us a name of someone who is reasonably known. By the way, I already posted that Kerala State Govt has been communist for years but they run the state admin along lines of capitalism or mixed economy. The Chinese Govt is the same and they claim to be avowed Communist to the core.

Prabhat Patnaik, CPI (M) member and noted Indian Economist. I believe he is still living and working as an economic commentator and academic. If you border to google I am sure you will find many more! Being communist and an economist is not mutually exclusive!!
 

ozeman

Alfrescian
Loyal
Alamak bro, I might as well give you the name of neighbour's bedridden aunty who thinks that she is astronaut albeit you can't find her in google.

Out of every 1,000 doctors, there will be at least one oddball who should not be allowed to practice.

Give us a name of someone who is reasonably known. By the way, I already posted that Kerala State Govt has been communist for years but they run the state admin along lines of capitalism or mixed economy. The Chinese Govt is the same and they claim to be avowed Communist to the core.

Prabhat Patnaik is one of the most renowned marxist economists of our time with degrees from Oxford university and a professorship from JNU. that you may not have heard of him, does not necessarily mean that he is some odd ball economist from toa payoh!

you obviously hang around in different circles and read too much SPH publications. but i would not go as far as to call you an odd ball. you are simply a product of your past and current environment.:wink:
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Never heard of the bloke and I am sure you and the rest have not heard of him as well before today. I could be thick, could you explain why he is considered a recognised economist by the world.

No need for someone from Toa Payoh. Just name a reasonably well known economist from the world stage that is a communist.



Prabhat Patnaik is one of the most renowned marxist economists of our time with degrees from Oxford university and a professorship from JNU. that you may not have heard of him, does not necessarily mean that he is some odd ball economist from toa payoh!

you obviously hang around in different circles and read too much SPH publications. but i would not go as far as to call you an odd ball. you are simply a product of your past and current environment.:wink:
 

ozeman

Alfrescian
Loyal
By the way, I already posted that Kerala State Govt has been communist for years but they run the state admin along lines of capitalism or mixed economy. The Chinese Govt is the same and they claim to be avowed Communist to the core.

and you believe that singapore is a democratic country and the pap is a democratic socialist party? anyways, what has that got to do with being communist and an economist is mutually exclusive? heh heh :wink:
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
Dear Scroobal,

In my view, Marx was an economist as much as Adam Smith. Although they started out with mere empirical observations of the economic activities and tried to explain the workings without much technical research, but they formed economic ideals from such observations.

However, there are distinctive difference between Marx's approach vs Adam Smith. Adam Smith tries to explain the workings of the market by rationalizing the behaviors of individual economic players within the system while Marx critique on the capitalist system and conclude that it will lead to instability, thus there is a need for an alternative economic system which he proposed but is totally against human nature.

Economics and the study of human psychology in the market place are closely related. Marx just discarded the human psychology part and tried to create a system based on political ideals. That's where things can go wrong.

But nevertheless, he is an political-economic theorist alright.

Goh Meng Seng
 

ozeman

Alfrescian
Loyal
Never heard of the bloke and I am sure you and the rest have not heard of him as well before today. I could be thick, could you explain why he is considered a recognised economist by the world.

No need for someone from Toa Payoh. Just name a reasonably well known economist from the world stage that is a communist.

hey, you just make too many asssumptions, siva! and you simply can't let go when you are challenged. Prabhat Patnaik has more refereed publications than all the sammyboy forumners put together. btw, i'm sure you can't name a world renowned social antropologist today! i am certain economics is not your field of expertise!

and you still can't explain why being communist and an economist is mutually exclusive!!! heh heh.............
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Practically everyone seeking professional respect prior to the formation of the Soviet Union contemplated the communism model or considered themselves communist.

Oxbridge for centuries ran PPE (Political Science, Philosophy and Economics) for the best and brightest. Its still is a key course in world academia.

In those days, there was never a single discipline such as economics where you earn a degree. Now it alot more clear who the economist, the Philosophers and Political Scientist are.

After the collapse of the soviet union and the domino effect on the rest of the communist countries - communism is no longer entertained or considered as an economic model. Even in those days, it was closer to philosophy and Political Science. Most economist even in those days discounted communism .

I always counted Marx as a Philosopher/ sociologist and not an economist.

Thats the reason why I asked for someone to name me a renown economist who is a communist. Thats like asking a vegan to become a butcher. You did economics and the first thing you learn is demand and supply. How is that related to Communism. Even Marx could not show empirically what he meant by "surplus value".

Dear Scroobal,

In my view, Marx was an economist as much as Adam Smith. Although they started out with mere empirical observations of the economic activities and tried to explain the workings without much technical research, but they formed economic ideals from such observations.

However, there are distinctive difference between Marx's approach vs Adam Smith. Adam Smith tries to explain the workings of the market by rationalizing the behaviors of individual economic players within the system while Marx critique on the capitalist system and conclude that it will lead to instability, thus there is a need for an alternative economic system which he proposed but is totally against human nature.

Economics and the study of human psychology in the market place are closely related. Marx just discarded the human psychology part and tried to create a system based on political ideals. That's where things can go wrong.

But nevertheless, he is an political-economic theorist alright.

Goh Meng Seng
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Just name a reasonably known economist who is a communist. You said you could?


hey, you just make too many asssumptions, siva! and you simply can't let go when you are challenged. Prabhat Patnaik has more refereed publications than all the sammyboy forumners put together. btw, i'm sure you can't name a world renowned social antropologist today! i am certain economics is not your field of expertise!

and you still can't explain why being communist and an economist is mutually exclusive!!! heh heh.............
 

RandomNexus

Alfrescian
Loyal
true but i find this part abit of an oxymoron going by the nature of various communist governments in power...ussr, prc, cuba, north korea, vietnam etc...



?

Not referring to these states as you have mentioned. Reference is towards practising democracies in capitalist states which allow for communist parties to participate.
 

RandomNexus

Alfrescian
Loyal
Welcome back. Great stuff.

Always good to see you around! SBF has been around for more than a decade - it always seems like yesterday when I first ventured into it. Hopefully, in the next ten years, many will still be around... familiarity brings back fond memories.
 

ozeman

Alfrescian
Loyal
Just name a reasonably known economist who is a communist. You said you could?

I already did! Prabhat Patnaik. World renowned marxist economist!!!! you just like to argue. btw, you can't win every argument!:wink: heh heh.......

and please tell me, why is communism and economics mutually exclusive? :smile:
 
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