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Lim Chin Siong was a Communist

scroobal

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Economics is founded on empirical data. Marx theories could not be supported by a shred of empirical data. He was more an ideologue and idealist(admittedly very attractive and appealing for those who believe in equality). Anyway, 101 Economics does not cover Marx. Usually a separate module covering theorists mentions marx and how his theory evolved and why he ultimately failed.

Actually Marx works are found in Politics 101 and Philosophy 101.

Dear Scroobal

Marx is still in all basic economics 101 textbooks :_)) He provided a counter balance to the Adam Smith ideal that the Fee Market corrected for everything

He may not have been great in the sense that he was right, he was great because even though he was wrong he contributed to the body of economic theory by bringing attention to a different side of the free market equation.

The very existence of marxism forced capitalism to adapt its economic redistribution policies so that its inherent capitalism contradictions did not destroy itself


Locke
 

scroobal

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You should not believe everything you read. One must make a reasonable assessment. Would you believe what the Straits Times writes. Learn to inculcate independent thought.

You think that Marx is a successful economist, I beg to differ. I think that he is Political theorist and Philosopher and credible one at that.

If you can show me why he is a successful economist or which book says that he is one, I will concede defeat.

I merely pointed out that you ought to read some books before shooting yourself.
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Nice-Gook

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Now the question of Marx as an economist is settled.Hence even if Lim Chin Siong subscribes to Marx measures of running an economy does it make him a communist?Let me rephrase ; Deng subscribed to many of capitalistic practices in running China's economy.Therefore is he any less of a communist?--Which begets the real question.Who the heck are communists anyway !--

Let me hazard a guess.In the context of early 50s & 60s armed struggle differentiated communists from socialists .Whereas socialists and others subscribed to the vote banks.And since Chin Peng was very clear on how to seize control-through armed struggle.And Lim Chin Siong was not with him.Therefore Lim Chin Siong was a ''communist'' as much as LKY or PAP.
 

Nice-Gook

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You should not believe everything you read. One must make a reasonable assessment. Would you believe what the Straits Times writes. Learn to inculcate independent thought. You think that Marx is a successful economist, I beg to differ. I think that he is Political theorist and Philosopher and credible one at that. If you can show me why he is a successful economist or which book says that he is one, I will concede defeat.

The question is not whether Marx is a ''successful'' economist or not.You asserted that since Goh Keng Swee is an economist and therefor he can never be a communist.Wrong !-

Communism itself has an economical basis.Ah,and is it successful? Only time will tell.And it's not merely my words.So said Chairman Mao when he was once asked the effects of communism on China.He noted that perhaps a 100 years later we may know but not now.
 

scroobal

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If you understand economics, you will never ever be a communist. Its analogus to a vegan operating a butchery. Its just goes against the grain of their principles. This is a guy won't even buy sugar cane for his party workers, you think he is going to believe in communism.


You asserted that since Goh Keng Swee is an economist and therefor he can never be a communist.Wrong !-

 

Nice-Gook

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If you understand economics, you will never ever be a communist. Its analogus to a vegan operating a butchery. Its just goes against the grain of their principles. This is a guy won't even buy sugar cane for his party workers, you think he is going to believe in communism.

<style></style>Please don't embarrass your self for your lack of wisdom.But if you do have an agenda to paint that everyone else who was not running with LKY as a communist.So be it !

But remember you have to hide 1 lie with 10 more lies.Here are some facts for you.Goh Keng Swee was one of the committee member of the Council of Action in 1950-an amalgamation of union.This council is widely acknowledged as the forerunner of PAP.Hence GKS was a unionist-essentially..In that era almost all labor unions were heavily commies.Therefore it is highly plausible that Goh Keng Swee indeed subscribed to Marx kind of economy .
 

scroobal

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So now its "highly plausible".

Yeah, I remember marching with my parents to our collective farm in Orchard Road with my neighbours carrying changkuls as result of Goh's edicts. Life was sweet, we shared the farm produce in an equitable manner and gave the surplus to the Istana. Rajaratnam was our village Commissar and he used to lead us in singing patriotic songs at night.

Our fear was that Lim Chin Siong and Fong Swee Suan working with the American Capitalist dogs might take over the country. They were a decadent lot. Used to see them at Middle Road wearing bell bottoms and sporting Elvis style haircuts.

Maybe you should write the "Untold Story of PAP."


<style></style>Therefore it is highly plausible that Goh Keng Swee indeed subscribed to Marx kind of economy .
 

halsey02

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If you understand economics, you will never ever be a communist. Its analogus to a vegan operating a butchery. Its just goes against the grain of their principles. This is a guy won't even buy sugar cane for his party workers, you think he is going to believe in communism.

He is a downright stingy fella!, as opposed to a thrifty fella!. How can he be a communist when he is stingy to the core?

He is not going share his wealth, chattels for a common good, a glass of sugar cane juice for all, he can't pay...you mean he can be a communist?:biggrin:

What is that Cantonese word again..."gu hong kwei"...literally translated, "stingy devil"...:wink:
 

Nice-Gook

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So now its "highly plausible". Yeah, I remember marching with my parents to our collective farm in Orchard Road with my neighbours carrying changkuls as result of Goh's edicts. Life was sweet, we shared the farm produce in an equitable manner and gave the surplus to the Istana. Rajaratnam was our village Commissar and he used to lead us in singing patriotic songs at night.Our fear was that Lim Chin Siong and Fong Swee Suan working with the American Capitalist dogs might take over the country. They were a decadent lot. Used to see them at Middle Road wearing bell bottoms and sporting Elvis style haircuts. Maybe you should write the "Untold Story of PAP."

<style></style>What is this ? Someone who epitomizes the pseudo intellectual who is so dishonest as to have fooled herself even with her bullshit. !--But you lack that deftness and finesse to deliver the punch sister.:biggrin::p:biggrin:

Anyway,unwittingly you had hit the nail or rather the raw nerve of the PAP--To write the real version of the Untold Story of PAP-that is.However the gist is who cares?--Nobody really cares except Leegime and his kitchen cabinet.All this articles by ex-SPH '' Nazis and Lee Wei Ling's passage of life are merely clinging to straws of hope to right their wrongs.So that thei printed version remains as HIs-Story ; as referrals for future readings.In short LKY is simply gunning for a glorious legacy to leave behind.To obfuscate the trail of the numerous ISD detainess tears & blood..

Now,the question is why would some of his political adversaries play along too?I remember what a seasoned old man once told me.That behind every successful man there is a woman.And the old fart was lucky I guess is the stack of ''white-papers'' Leegime had painlessness collected all these years against every one these folks.Comes very handy as a bargaining chip when it comes to the crunch..And I was also told that the only one who had a upper hand over the old fart was the former CJ-which explains his exceptionally long service.
 

scroobal

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I got a funny feeling that Singaporeans generally don't know what communism is all about or what communist believe in. Thats the reason I started this thread.

He is a downright stingy fella!, as opposed to a thrifty fella!. How can he be a communist when he is stingy to the core?

He is not going share his wealth, chattels for a common good, a glass of sugar cane juice for all, he can't pay...you mean he can be a communist?:biggrin:

What is that Cantonese word again..."gu hong kwei"...literally translated, "stingy devil"...:wink:
 

Nice-Gook

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I got a funny feeling that Singaporeans generally don't know what communism is all about or what communist believe in. Thats the reason I started this thread.

Than please tell us.What is your take on what indeed is communism is all about and their beliefs .Go on lady.We are all ears.
 

DannyBoyBoy

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"Communism is not a set of measures to be put into practice after the seizure of power. It is a movement which already exists, not as a mode of production (there can be no communist island within capitalist society), but as a tendency which originates in real needs. Communism does not even know what value is. The point is not that one fine day a large number of people start to destroy value and profit. All past revolutionary movements were able to bring society to a standstill, and waited for something to come out of this universal stoppage. Communization, on the contrary, will circulate goods without money, open the gate isolating a factory from its neighbourhood, close down another factory where the work process is too alienating to be technically improved, do away with school as a specialized place which cuts off learning from doing for 15 odd years, pull down walls that force people to imprison themselves in 3-room family units - in short, it will tend to break all separations. Communism believes in equality through force."
Communism is the end of the economy as a separate and privileged field on which everything else depends while despising and fearing it. It is used to refer to the economic power under Communist parties that have the dictatorship of the social classes.
The true revolutionary is guided by great feelings of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality."
"There is no other definition of communism valid for us than that of the abolition of the exploitation of man by man
 

Goh Meng Seng

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Than please tell us.What is your take on what indeed is communism is all about and their beliefs .Go on lady.We are all ears.

Dear Nice-Gook,

Scroobal was right to say that communism or rather, Marxism is just a Theory based on observations of the capitalist system of that time that deduce that it will fail due to class struggle. And from there, Marx concluded that another system, based on the theory of equalizing the rights and interests of the different classes in the society, should provide a more stable economic system. As there wasn't any similar system that exists, such theory was just theory until Russia turned communist.

Goh Meng Seng
 

scroobal

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Kerala a state within India had a communist state government for decades. Interestingly though the they were deep into marxist/leninist literature, the pay scale and reward system were capitalist in nature. It was never close to any of the communist states that failed. Kerala has one of the highest literacy rates in the world.

Communism is a failed notion. What most people are looking for is a state that helps the underprivilged, the unable and the unfortunate. Essentially the state has a purpose and a role (which the PAP will not acknowledge via the laws but instead preferring to label such moves as welfarism) . When Walter Woon first moved the private bill as an NMP to force children to look after their elderly parents, the intelligentsia knew that Walter was actually forcing the PAP Govt to do something for the elderly instead of pretending that everyone was fine in Singapore. PAP was stuck and old man for the first time in his political life was dumbfounded. Its thus remains as one and only private bill.

ps. I got to return to my collective farm in orchard road. Haven't completed my family share of tilling. Hail to Goh Keng Swee, father of Singapore trade unionism.






"Communism is the end of the economy as a separate and privileged field on which everything else depends while despising and fearing it.
 

Nice-Gook

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Dear Nice-Gook,
Scroobal was right to say that communism or rather, Marxism is just a Theory based on observations of the capitalist system of that time that deduce that it will fail due to class struggle. And from there, Marx concluded that another system, based on the theory of equalizing the rights and interests of the different classes in the society, should provide a more stable economic system. As there wasn't any similar system that exists, such theory was just theory until Russia turned communist. Goh Meng Seng

<style></style>Thanks but I rather have Scroobal give her own take on what communism is all about.Since she insist on branding who is a communist and who is not.

FYI..Socialism is the forerunner of communism.In that respect even Plato(427-347 BC) is a sort of ''communist''.Plato envisaged a society without marriages where all children would be raised by the state.Many tribes can be said to be communistic.Since their people were fed out of the common store, and labored jointly together.Even in religious sects such as Christianity there were/are commune where all property was/is commonly owned and work and worship was combined.
 

ozeman

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If you understand economics, you will never ever be a communist. Its analogus to a vegan operating a butchery. Its just goes against the grain of their principles. This is a guy won't even buy sugar cane for his party workers, you think he is going to believe in communism.

communists believe in dictatorship of the proletariat. it is a political and social ideology, not an economic science. Many renowned political economists are communists. So it is incorrect to say that if one understands economics one will not become a communist. Rather, it is more correct to say that if one believes in capitalism, one cannot be a communist. that's quite obvious anyways, isn't it?
 

ozeman

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Kerala a state within India had a communist state government for decades. Interestingly though the they were deep into marxist/leninist literature, the pay scale and reward system were capitalist in nature. It was never close to any of the communist states that failed. Kerala has one of the highest literacy rates in the world.

Communism is a failed notion. What most people are looking for is a state that helps the underprivilged, the unable and the unfortunate. Essentially the state has a purpose and a role (which the PAP will not acknowledge via the laws but instead preferring to label such moves as welfarism) . When Walter Woon first moved the private bill as an NMP to force children to look after their elderly parents, the intelligentsia knew that Walter was actually forcing the PAP Govt to do something for the elderly instead of pretending that everyone was fine in Singapore. PAP was stuck and old man for the first time in his political life was dumbfounded. Its thus remains as one and only private bill.

ps. I got to return to my collective farm in orchard road. Haven't completed my family share of tilling. Hail to Goh Keng Swee, father of Singapore trade unionism.

there are many muntants of communism. to blatantly raise a wand and unilaterally declare that communism is a failed notion is being simplistic. china is a communist country with many capitalist characteristics. is it a failed notion? india is a capitalist country. is it a successful country?

many things in life is not just black and white. there is always a bit of grey and yellow in it. that's what makes life interesting.
 

scroobal

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Since it is obvious, name us one living Economist who is a communist.

ps. there are thousands of communists who call themselves economist, lecture economics bu they are in China, Russia and North Korea. It quite a different thing similar to Communist countries in the past who love to have "democratic" is their official country name.

communists believe in dictatorship of the proletariat. it is a political and social ideology, not an economic science. Many renowned political economists are communists. So it is incorrect to say that if one understands economics one will not become a communist. Rather, it is more correct to say that if one believes in capitalism, one cannot be a communist. that's quite obvious anyways, isn't it?
 

scroobal

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Isn't that obvious. UK, OZ, Canada are core capitalist market driven economies but they they an excellent welfare system that is practically cradle to grave.

Do you call the above mentioned countries communist, neo communist, pseudo communist, part communist, grey communist, a bit communist. a shade of communism.

many things in life is not just black and white. there is always a bit of grey and yellow in it. that's what makes life interesting.
 

Ah Guan

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I got a funny feeling that Singaporeans generally don't know what communism is all about or what communist believe in. Thats the reason I started this thread.

Reading some of the posts here, I can't help but agree.

Many sinkaporeans still don't realise that the HDB (public housing) stems from a Communist concept.

All you guys only associate Communism with Kim Jong Il, Mao and Stalin. Pathetic.
 
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