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HDB Mortgage SLAVES

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
BTW, REAL INVESTORS of properties PAY FULL in CASH, they don't go for 30 years mortgage! :wink:

Please don't delude yourself that you could "INVEST" in your HDB flat and hope that you could REAP PROFIT from it! You could only do so if and only if the FIRST HDB flat you bought from HDB is at cost or below cost price, not some discounted price disguised as "subsidy"! And of course, after selling off this first HDB flat of yours, you will just get the money and buy some cheap housing somewhere, like Malaysia or Australia and live happily ever after there. :wink:



Goh Meng Seng
 

crazyhendrix

Alfrescian
Loyal
Nice one GMS. I like your break down. I'm having trouble affording a new or resale flat simply because I don't by Mah Bow 'affordable' Tan's logic of 30% for 30 years = affordable. Job security is an issue the moment anyone passes 30. I have to work till 62 just to service a loan... I'd rather stay with my in-laws than become a slave.

If you're contesting the East Coast GRC in the up and coming GE, my vote goes to you. Gogogo!
 

eatshitndie

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
BTW, REAL INVESTORS of properties PAY FULL in CASH, they don't go for 30 years mortgage! :wink:

Please don't delude yourself that you could "INVEST" in your HDB flat and hope that you could REAP PROFIT from it! You could only do so if and only if the FIRST HDB flat you bought from HDB is at cost or below cost price, not some discounted price disguised as "subsidy"! And of course, after selling off this first HDB flat of yours, you will just get the money and buy some cheap housing somewhere, like Malaysia or Australia and live happily ever after there. :wink:



Goh Meng Seng

it's stupid to invest and speculate in hdb flats or in any public housing project, as the main purpose of public housing is to provide affordable housing to those who cannot afford to purchase private homes. that being said, it is not true that real investors pay full in cash and don't get long term loans. that's bullshit. if the loan interest payment is small, such as less than 3% in sg (which is extremely attractive to american and european investors), the investor can hedge their bets on multiple purchases of various properties and spread their investment, instead of putting all the eggs in one basket. for example, if a property costs $2m, only a moron will pay in full. a wise or in your words "real" investor will park the minimum downpayment, such as 20%, on 5 properties worth $2m each so as to maximize purchasing power with cash on hand and leverage the low rate to earn hopefully higher returns on equity over the near term. these folks do not wait 2 to 3 years for new properties to be developed. they cast their bets on existing properties, where quick turnaround can be executed the moment all minimum conditions are met. depending on market conditions, offers, and capital gain taxes they have to pay, they flip (by selling or shorting) whenever there is a sizable profit to be made. this is because it's risky to service multiple loans with multiple monthly payments over the long term. it kills cash flow unless the investor can temporarily rent out the properties for some income to dampen expenses. you need to talk to more "real" investors and learn from them before you shoot from your hip.
 

QXD

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
Nicely said and delivered GMS, you have grown more methodical and I hope you can keep this up in the straight and narrow for the good of all Singaporeans in the coming elections.

Yes, I'm one of those few living abroad and reaping the benefits of high HDB prices and I do admit the issues you are mentioning now hit close to home back then when I was in SG wanting to increase my property investments as a long term retirement income.

Even then, the barriers to entering the property market was always getting ever higher, and the choices so limited (restricted by law to buy only one HDB or choice between HDB and non-HDB) and by the artificial jacking up of land prices by the HDB, the defacto determinant of entry level property prices. Many Singaporeans are thus limited one in their lifetime, ending up forever owing and never truly owning.

Keep up the fight.

BTW, REAL INVESTORS of properties PAY FULL in CASH, they don't go for 30 years mortgage! :wink:

Please don't delude yourself that you could "INVEST" in your HDB flat and hope that you could REAP PROFIT from it! You could only do so if and only if the FIRST HDB flat you bought from HDB is at cost or below cost price, not some discounted price disguised as "subsidy"! And of course, after selling off this first HDB flat of yours, you will just get the money and buy some cheap housing somewhere, like Malaysia or Australia and live happily ever after there. :wink:



Goh Meng Seng
 

RK85

Alfrescian
Loyal
Kick the useless MBT out the next erection.

The way things are going now, publice housing will cost a million dollars each soon.
 

theDoors

Alfrescian
Loyal
What is affordability?

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1033446/1/.html

Mr Lee was also asked for his take on a recent media report that at least three opposition parties were eyeing National Development Minister Mah Bow Tan's ward with the aim of making public housing affordability an election issue.

He explained: "What is affordabilty? From the point of view of the buyer? And the government that is subsidising you? The government has to price it at a level that is fair to the revenue it is collecting and fair to the individual, not only the present buyer but past and future buyers. If Mr Mah is unable to defend himself, he deserves to lose.

"No country in the world has given its citizens and families an asset as valuable as what we have given every family here. And if you say that policy is at fault, you must be daft."
 

theDoors

Alfrescian
Loyal
"What is affordabilty? From the point of view of the buyer? And the government that is subsidising you? The government has to price it at a level that is fair to the revenue it is collecting and fair to the individual, not only the present buyer but past and future buyers.

What is fair?

When MBT refuses to answer the simple question:

How much is the cost of building a flat.
 

theDoors

Alfrescian
Loyal
Max out your housing loan? Think again
You may end up paying off your mortgage well into your twilight years.
http://www.asiaone.com/print/Business/My+Money/Opinion/Story/A1Story20100503-213778.html
Tue, May 04, 2010
The Straits Times

By Tan Hui Yee

BURIED in the latest Housing Board (HDB) Sample Household Survey is a startling fact about the financial status of Singapore's older generation: 10.7 per cent of elderly households living in HDB flats, as well as 32.3 per cent of their 'future elderly' counterparts, are still paying off their mortgages.
Related story:
» The dollars & sense of home loans

Between 3 per cent and 5 per cent of these households have problems just meeting their daily expenses.

This is the first time the five-yearly survey has looked into the outstanding mortgages of the elderly, who are aged 65 and above, and 'future elderly', who are aged from 55 to 64.

While the survey's authors note that the number of struggling flat owners is small, 'continuous monitoring is necessary to ensure that the well-being of imminent cohorts of the elderly is not compromised by overspending on their housing purchase'.

It is not clear if these financial stragglers were weighed down by recent recessions or if they are home owners who took on heftier mortgages than they could afford during previous property bubbles. But they warrant a closer look in the light of an International Monetary Fund (IMF) report last week flagging possible property bubbles in Asia.

Housing prices in Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea and mainland China have recovered quickly from the 2008 to 2009 financial crisis and in some cases, have climbed past 2008 peaks, said the IMF. Anti-speculation measures slowed the increase of private property prices here to 5.6 per cent in the first quarter, and that of resale HDB flats to 2.8 per cent. But they have not stopped climbing. As the IMF notes, many people in Asia 'may have been buying in the expectation of price appreciation, rather than simply for dwelling purposes'.

This belief that prices will continue to rise is strong in Singapore, where the economic outlook is turning rosy. More significantly, it is also underpinned by several assumptions, chief of which is that a growing population and the Republic's land scarcity will nudge prices up. Some believe that property is more stable than various investment instruments as the Government will always intervene to shore up prices.

These assumptions lead some people to spend more on housing than they can afford. Yet none of the assumptions is totally true; all come with caveats.

In the long term, a small land supply will always push property prices but land size is not an insurmountable barrier. Development densities can always be raised to allow more homes to be built on the same plot of land.

Meanwhile, the idea that a booming population will push prices up seems logical but the reality is rather more complex. As economist Kim Kyung-Hwan, a visiting professor at the Singapore Management University, points out: The impact of population - or even income growth - on housing prices depends also on how fast housing supply can keep up. Housing prices can rise even without population growth if there simply are not enough new homes.

And the converse can happen as well. It is possible for real prices to stay level despite an influx of migrants if enough new homes are built. Supply of new private homes all but shrivelled up in the depths of the 2008 to 2009 downturn, creating what housing consultants called pent-up demand, which pushed prices up when new projects appeared.

Supply and demand issues aside, many buyers pledge their faith in property because they think it is a 'safe' investment. With the sub-prime crisis having taken the shine off financial markets, bricks and mortar now seem to be a better store of value.

But that depends on the timeframe. National University of Singapore Associate Professor Yu Shi Ming says property makes sense as a hedge against inflation only over 10 or 20 years. 'People don't plan to hold their property for so long any more,' he says. Within a shorter timeframe, how 'safe' property really is depends on the attitude of buyers.

Fundsupermart general manager Wong Sui Jau states plainly that many do not associate as much risk with property as they should. Property tends to be purchased with loans, and leverage raises the risk of any investment. Someone putting down $200,000 in cash and borrowing $800,000 to buy a $1 million property could stand to lose his entire capital if its value drops by just 20 per cent.

The believer could wait for the market to recover, but he would still have to make monthly loan repayments. Floating interest rates could raise the monthly bill uncomfortably high, especially if he took a bigger loan than he could afford.

At this point, the issue of government intervention comes in. Believers reason that property investment is safe because the Government will always step in to shore up prices to protect people's savings.

It is no secret that HDB flats are stores of retirement savings for many heartlanders. Older flat owners these days can rent out their flat, downgrade to a smaller one or even sell back a remaining lease to finance retirement expenses. The last two options are dependent on the value of the flat: if it drops, their incomes shrink accordingly.

While it makes sense for the Government to keep speculation and volatility in check, it is a stretch to expect significant intervention to shore up prices when economic fundamentals are weak. This is especially so since one of the Government's chief mandates is to keep prices accessible to cater to new home seekers.

It may be hard to imagine in a booming market that what goes up can come down. And believers, after all, are known to be short on memory and long on optimism.

But now, more than ever, would be a good time to redo sums and readjust expectations to avoid overspending on housing. After all, no one wants to be paying off a mortgage late into his 60s.

This article was first published in The Straits Times.
 

cleareyes

Alfrescian
Loyal
It means that, we will practically become SLAVES of our HDB mortgage! I would advise my young readers that if you are looking for a flat, make sure that you could pay off your mortgage in 15 years at your comfort zone... preferably 25% of your total household income. At the very worst, take only 20 years of mortgage and nothing more than that. If you can't, you better consider other alternatives. Don't be enslaved by this system, this myth of "affordability".


Goh Meng Seng

I dont think I will agree with you on this.

I m one of the few who now has no mortgage to pay as its all been fully paid off.

Does that still made me a slave?

and I paid it off in less than 6 years.

How?
 

johnny333

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
I dont think I will agree with you on this.

I m one of the few who now has no mortgage to pay as its all been fully paid off.

Does that still made me a slave?

and I paid it off in less than 6 years.

How?


I have also paid off my mortgage, BUT unlike you I can sympathise with those slaves. Many slaves are not only paying for their flats but also servicing loans for their cars.

Many PAP supporters seem unable to understand how the less fortunate feel until they themselves suffer the same fate. In my opinion PAP has done a poor job in nurturing a caring & compassionate society.
 

cleareyes

Alfrescian
Loyal
I have also paid off my mortgage, BUT unlike you I can sympathise with those slaves. Many slaves are not only paying for their flats but also servicing loans for their cars.

You know, that sounds to me to be the roat of the problem, bitting more than one can chew.

Why is one paying for house mortgage and service a heavy car loan at the same time? Cant take things one step at a time?

I have no car loan to service, but i do have other installments to pay off and I m thankful that with no mortgage on my head, I have some room to breath.

Do I blame the goverment for some of these problems? Yes I do because the cost is really too high for alot to bear. But then, its all about self-management and knowing what you have.
 

jw5

Moderator
Moderator
Loyal
You know, that sounds to me to be the roat of the problem, bitting more than one can chew.

Why is one paying for house mortgage and service a heavy car loan at the same time? Cant take things one step at a time?

I have no car loan to service, but i do have other installments to pay off and I m thankful that with no mortgage on my head, I have some room to breath.

Do I blame the goverment for some of these problems? Yes I do because the cost is really too high for alot to bear. But then, its all about self-management and knowing what you have.
It's all about "face".
The government is partly to blame for this as well, due to the values they have imparted all these years.
 

johnny333

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Do I blame the goverment for some of these problems? Yes I do because the cost is really too high for alot to bear. But then, its all about self-management and knowing what you have.


It's always easy to blame people for mismanaging their finances. Don't you think its unfair to blame lesser mortals for mis- managing their finances when the PAP gov't mismanages the finances of Spore:confused:

The PAP has lost billions, wasted tax dollars to subsidise foreigners, millions to spend on their own pay but when it comes to Sporeans welfare they have nothing.

Our landlord the PAP is obviously overcharging Sporeans.

I blame the gov't for increasing the cost of everything in Spore while suppressing wages by making it easy to import cheap labor, locking up OUR CPF.
 

theDoors

Alfrescian
Loyal
If we compared the previous cost based HDB flat pricing approach and the current market based pricing approach, the subsidy has been drastically reduced over the years.

Market-based pricing fairest for new HDB flats: Mah
http://www.asiaone.com/print/Business/My+Money/Property/Story/A1Story20081119-101855.html
HDB does not take cost of flat into account for its pricing.

Fri, Nov 21, 2008
The Straits Times

By Aaron Low

WHEN pricing a new HDB flat, costs are not taken into account. Its price is based on what the unit is worth at the point of purchase.

Calling it a market-based approach, National Development Minister Mah Bow Tan said it was the fairest way of pricing new flats.

'It reflects what the flat is worth at the point of purchase, which may have no relation to what it cost to build,' he added.

Mr Mah gave this response in Parliament yesterday to Mr Liang Eng Hwa (Holland-Bukit Timah GRC), who had asked if the Government would consider pricing flats according to costs.

The minister also said that as the HDB did not take into account costs, its building programme suffered losses of $530 million a year over the last three years.

He said a typical four-room flat in Sengkang costs more than $300,000 to build. This is above the $200,000 to $260,000 price at which HDB sells it.

He noted that there were concerns over the high prices of premium flats like those in Pinnacle@Duxton, with prices ranging from $457,000 to $645,000.

But the prices reflected the value of the flats, which are located in Tanjong Pagar. For every unit on sale, seven people wanted to buy it, said Mr Mah.

It shows people are willing to pay for flats with good value, he added.

That the market is the main driver of prices of resale HDB flats was also highlighted by Senior Minister of State for National Development Grace Fu.

Madam Ho Geok Choo (West Coast GRC) had asked why the cash that a buyer pays on top of the official valuation of a flat - known in the industry as cash- over-valuation (COV) - is proportionately so high for two- and three-room flats. Latest figures show the median COV for a two-room flat is $16,000 and for a three-room unit, $19,000.

Ms Fu said COV is based on several factors and varies in different segments of the HDB market.

COV also depends on market conditions and how much each buyer is prepared to pay, she added, noting it could drop and enter negative territory.

However, it is often positive. For instance, the median COV for two-room flats range from $4,100 in Ang Mo Kio to $23,000 in Bukit Merah.


This article was first published in The Straits Times on November 19, 2008.

Based on info from this link
http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/Page/straitstimes19820923.1.8.aspx

Cost based approach:

Total cost of new flat: $59000, buyer pay $30,900, government pay $28,1000; Subsidy 47.62%

Market based approach:

Total building cost new flat $300,001 (HDB refuse to reveal actual building cost), buyer pay $260,000 (current pricing of new 4 room Sengkang flats); subsidy:15.38%
 
U

UpYoz_olo

Guest
You have totally mixed up the two markets and the concept of "investment" vs "buying a house for a home".

Ramseth has nicely put it, if you are buying a house for a home, it doesn't matter whether the flats in RESALE market is high or low because you are not going to sell it for profit anyway.

Even if you want to sell off your flat to sleep on the street, that's fine. I HAVE NO ISSUE with HIGH RESALE PRICES as long as Singaporean buyers get a subsidy from HDB.

But I do have an issue with HIGH HDB PRICES for NEW FLATS which are meant for first time buyers, most probably newly wed couples! The reason why people like you mix the two markets up is basically because you have unwittingly and unknowingly accepted HDB's policy of linking the price of RESALE MARKET with NEW HDB Prices which HDB itself has total monopoly over.

Thirdly, you have erroneously assume that the NEW HDB FLATS are sold in normal free market! That is totally out! HDB is the SOLE MONOPOLY SUPPLIER of NEW HDB Flats and it even controls who can buy and cannot buy new flats from it! It means that even if the flat is priced at ZERO by HDB, it doesn't mean that the demand will increase because basically HDB has determined who are eligible and who are not! The demand is controlled demand.

It means that by lowering the price for NEW HDB flats, it will not result in a huge surge in demand as we can see from free markets. No. Even if this happens, it will be good sign.... young couples are encouraged to get marry and form a family unit earlier! There is a LIMIT to demand as there are just that many young Singaporean couples in Singapore. Foreigners are not allowed to buy at that low price and thus there will not be an unusual surge in demand.

Singaporeans can have their cake and eat it. They can enjoy low prices for NEW HDB FLATS, their very first flat while at the same time, have higher value in the resale market. Nothing wrong with that.

The most erroneous idea you have here is that Singsaporeans have "control" over their "finances". Sorry to say that, PAP has calculated everything for you. They are just saying you can "afford" a HDB flat if you pay 30% (i.e. all your CPF) of your salary for 30 years mortgage. They are the monopoly of the new HDB flats, remember? Do you really think you could have an y control over your own finances at all? You will be under their control!

Goh Meng Seng

First, I salute your bravery to lay bare your thoughts and convictions and sign them off in your personal capacity. It can also be foolhardy as people can see the flaws in your arguments.

I would like to ask why it's ok for first flat buyers to enjoy ever larger 'jackpot' price differentials between new and resale HDB flats by having HDB to artificially depress new and condone runaway resale flat prices? Is this an equitable and sound policy? Moreover, first-time HDB flat buyers need not have to be all sgporeans. A newly minted PR/PRs can tag along a sgporean to take advantage of 'your proposed system' and make tons of $$ in the process. Is that you and your party's platform? Please think thru' this before PAP nails you on this.

As a self-acclaimed economist, you should know someone have to bear the cost. Do you think sgporeans will not be hit by the costs if 'your system' is used? Don't any how throw darts lest they may ricochet on you. Perhaps, you should spend more time studying sg's economic problems, money supply, cpf lock up $$$ etc. There are real problems there, and any real politicians worth their salt (ruling or opposition) should deal with this before it's too late.

Leave this populist HDB non-issue alone. You aren't up to it to criticise in my honest, honest opinion.

Good luck to your quest, Mr Goh


:oIo:
 

axe168

Alfrescian
Loyal
Ya wrong ! A real investor will live in a higher geared environment.. borrowing money to make a profit or catch the next waves.. You only pay off your loan when you are about to retire.. Money/opportunity now is worth more value than the future - say 20yrs

The issue in SG is about "affordable housing". Citizens and PAP govt got confused. Affordable housing should never be compared to market prices and should never be lavish. Ask any valuer in the world, can they compare govt housing with private housing. Those who prefer superb finishes should take it to the private - condo. The Govt housing should be plain affordable - like it or not. Affordability should be measured by a benchmark of "single income" at a "25yrs loan".

Of course MBT will argued it is still within affordable level.. double incomes at 30yrs loan ? Gimme a break !



BTW, REAL INVESTORS of properties PAY FULL in CASH, they don't go for 30 years mortgage! :wink:

Please don't delude yourself that you could "INVEST" in your HDB flat and hope that you could REAP PROFIT from it! You could only do so if and only if the FIRST HDB flat you bought from HDB is at cost or below cost price, not some discounted price disguised as "subsidy"! And of course, after selling off this first HDB flat of yours, you will just get the money and buy some cheap housing somewhere, like Malaysia or Australia and live happily ever after there. :wink:



Goh Meng Seng
 
Last edited:
U

UpYoz_olo

Guest
First, I salute your bravery to lay bare your thoughts and convictions and sign them off in your personal capacity. It can also be foolhardy as people can see the flaws in your arguments.

I would like to ask why it's ok for first flat buyers to enjoy ever larger 'jackpot' price differentials between new and resale HDB flats by having HDB to artificially depress new and condone runaway resale flat prices? Is this an equitable and sound policy? Moreover, first-time HDB flat buyers need not have to be all sgporeans. A newly minted PR/PRs can tag along a sgporean to take advantage of 'your proposed system' and make tons of $$ in the process. Is that you and your party's platform? Please think thru' this before PAP nails you on this.

As a self-acclaimed economist, you should know someone have to bear the cost. Do you think sgporeans will not be hit by the costs if 'your system' is used? Don't any how throw darts lest they may ricochet on you. Perhaps, you should spend more time studying sg's economic problems, money supply, cpf lock up $$$ etc. There are real problems there, and any real politicians worth their salt (ruling or opposition) should deal with this before it's too late.

Leave this populist HDB non-issue alone. You aren't up to it to criticise in my honest, honest opinion.

Good luck to your quest, Mr Goh


:oIo:

I damn disappointed with this particular discussion. Before I posted my simple innocent question, the thread starter was very active here talking about HDB high prices.

After I have posted my innocent but valid question, communication went dead. Is this what we can expect from politicians and MP-wannabe that are active here????

Also, there are many cheer leaders here that rally behind questionable arguments and throw darts at government policies. How come all these cacophonies are all become dead??? How come???

Damn puzzled and disappointed.

How can I give my vote to people like that in the coming election. You tell me.


:oIo:
 

woolsworth

Alfrescian
Loyal
BTW, REAL INVESTORS of properties PAY FULL in CASH, they don't go for 30 years mortgage! :wink:

Goh Meng Seng

Actually , Real Investors seldom pay anything in Full Cash ; investment is not dependent solely on affordability , but by the cost of funds vs projected ROI (return on Investment)

If your cost of funds exceed the potential ROI , it makes sense to borrow , cause by parking your ready funds elsewhere , one can earn a better ROI

Singapore interest rates are low , one can earn better returns by parking one's funds elsewhere.
 
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