• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

Going Back to Tanaka and Zhou EnLai in 1972 on the Senkaku Issue.

I try to google the topic but it realli tell me anything...like almost everyone heard about the Nanjing massacre but most of the poofs i know of are just witnesses and pictures (i aint trying to discredit completely but i think its rather subjective). Also, some of the witnesses could be biased as well...afterall...there is realli a big propangada campaign against japanese in ww2...and is it that easy to recall something over 60 yrs ago (like u can remember basic facts, but its seldomly unconvincing in some extent) .

I also look at pictures about the massacre, apparently there r some websites i see taking pictures on the chongqing bombing raid and labelling it as Nanjing Massacre...i don't know is it intentional or accidential but pictures like this give japanese government more the rights about it.

I'm quite certain the Nanjing massacre did happen...but since we're on the topic of forensic science.

I did read a few books criminalists, crime scene investigators and similar occupations (one book by Henry Lee, but I forgot the exact title) and quite a few documentaries about them. I'm also taking a course or two (for personal enrichment) later this year to learn more. (some things are different from entertainment shows)

So far, from what I've been reading, hearing and watching, it is possible to estimate the age of a deceased body. I don't know about race, because what I've read and watch the authors didn't talk much about it, although they did make guesses, I mean it depends on the body, corpse, skull, etc. if it is qutie visible, obvious something like that. Sometimes on the documentaries, some of the people make statements like "caucasian or hispanic, person with these features, etc"
Gender I've read and watch is possible to estimate.
Of course, it is possible to make guesses, estimate methods of killing.

I don't know how it might work for a mass, but I'm aware that it is hard to dispose a body. Like it is hard not to notice burning flesh, bodies that are being discarded, corpses, etc.
Well, actually I did watch a show with Henry Lee saying how it is hard to burn a body or to hide it. What he meant was that it is hard to cover up a body in general.
I thought it was hard to believe .


I have heard that witnesses are hard to trust, because how they look at things from different angles and the memories, and not necessary because of their personal biases and beliefs. However, I think that witnesses for such massive killings are still credible, mainly because they were made aware that such an event like that did happen.

So I guess what I'm saying is that alongside photos and witnesses, there would have to be quite a lot of physical evidence.

Let's just imagine if we live in that time period and event. After such an event, would the Chinese have wanted to honor the dead by burying them or putting their remains/anything left of them to rest, or spend time and energy to collect it for evidence like they do for crime scenes of today? So where are those evidence beside those old photographs?
 
Last edited:
I have to admit if I am a japanese, i wouldnt be readily accept that soldiers fighting for my country's pride r murderers based on "enemy" witnesses.
 
Both sides have blood on their hands, be fair about this. Who let in the Japanese into China? our brothers!!, who sold their country!. The communists killed many people during the cultural revolution & Tian An Men protest!?

Who doesn't have ancestors who were killed by the Japanese, can that be erased, no? but, the Chinese have blood on their hands too...

Yes agree, both side has blood on their hands, and we do have relatives (my parent did fought against the jap) or someone we know die fighting the Japan imperial army, but to deny the rape of Nanjing....don't need to go there.

Japan has never ever sincerely apologise for their war crime.
 
Last edited:
What is the Alleged Nanking Massacre?

The alleged Nanking Massacre, commonly known as the Rape of Nanking, is the name of a genocidal war crime said to have been committed by the Japanese military in the city of Nanking (Nanjing), the then capital of the Republic of China, after it fell to the Imperial Japanese Army on December 13, 1937. There is a dispute about whether it really occurred or not.

Massacre affirmationists claim that during the occupation of Nanking, the Japanese army committed numerous atrocities such as rape, looting, arson and the execution of prisoners of war and civilians. They say that the Japanese massacred about 300,000 Chinese people in Nanking during the six weeks after the Japanese occupation of the city. On the outer wall of the Nanking Massacre Memorial Museum in China is written "300,000" as the number of the massacre victims. Many Chinese children visit there every year to be planted anti-Japanese feeling in their hearts.

Massacre denialists claim that newspapers, photos, documentary films, records and testimonies in those days all tell the Nanking Massacre of 300,000 people, a large-scale massacre or even a small-scale massacre, did not take place. According to denialists, the so-called Nanking Massacre was a fabrication and false propaganda spread by Chinese Nationalists and Communists for their political purpose.

Today, we have numerous reliable pieces of evidence showing that the massacre did not actually occur. Firstly, I will give a brief explanation of what actually occurred in Nanking, and then, show the details.

What Actually Occurred in Nanking

In 1937, to end the China Incident, the Japanese military advanced on China and fought against Chiang Kai-shek’s Chinese military in Nanking. During the battle, every civilian who remained in the city took refuge in the Safety Zone, which was specially set up within the walls of Nanking. The Japanese military did not attack it, and no civilian was killed.

Until the time of the Japanese occupation of Nanking, the Chinese military had committed numerous bad deeds such as plunder and rape among citizens. The citizens who had abhorred them welcomed the entry of the Japanese military into Nanking, giving cheers and rejoicing (see the picture at the top of this page).

Just before the Japanese occupation, the population of the city was about 200,000. One month after the occupation, many Chinese citizens came back to Nanking learning that peace had returned, and the population increased to about 250,000. Newspapers in those days had numerous photos of Chinese citizens who had come back to Nanking and lived peacefully, buying, selling and smiling with Japanese soldiers.

In the battle of Nanking, many Chinese soldiers discarded their military uniforms to run away, killed Chinese civilians to take off civilian clothes, and hid themselves among Nanking citizens. Some Westerners remaining in Nanking sheltered Chinese military officers secretly, breaking the agreement with the Japanese military to be neutral. Many of the Chinese soldiers not only hid weapons to prepare urban warfare, but also raped Chinese women and put it on an act of Japanese soldiers for anti-Japanese maneuvering purpose. The Japanese military found out these illegitimate soldiers, and there were those who were executed by the Japanese military; however, these executions were recognized as legitimate under international law.

It is also a fact that there were around ten or several tens cases of small crimes such as plunder and rape committed by Japanese soldiers in Nanking. However, these were similar to the crimes which soldiers of other countries also committed in occupied territories, and the Japanese criminals were strictly punished.

There were such things, but no massacre in Nanking. The Japanese military rather did many humane aid activities to Nanking citizens and POWs. There was no single Chinese citizen who starved to death under the Japanese occupation. Seeing these Japanese activities and being moved by them, there were even Chinese POWs who later joined Wang Jingwei’s pro-Japanese government.

The following are the details.

********************


Evidence that the Massacre Did Not Take Place

Return of the Populace

The population of Nanking just before the Japanese occupation was about 200,000. About a week before the Japanese attack on Nanking, on November 28, 1937, the head of the Police Department of Nanking, Mr. Wan, announced at a press conference for foreigners, "About 200,000 people still live here in Nanking." Five days after the Japanese occupation, on December 18, 1937, the International Committee for the Nanking Safety Zone, which was a group of Westerners remaining in Nanking, announced that the population of the city was about 200,000. Later, on December 21, the Foreigners Association in Nanking referred to 200,000 as the population of Nanking.

How could the Japanese kill 300,000 citizens in a city that held only 200,000 people?

One month after the Japanese occupation, many Nanking citizens who had escaped the city came back to Nanking, learning that peace had returned, and the population increased to about 250,000. There is a record that the Japanese troops distributed food to that number of citizens. On January 14, 1938, about one month after the Japanese occupation, the International Committee announced that the population of Nanking had increased to about 250,000.

The Japanese military had published Good Citizen Certificate to Nanking citizens from the end of December 1937 to January 1938 to distinguish them from Chinese soldiers hiding in Nanking in civilian clothing. The total number of the certificates reached about 160,000, although this figure does not include children under the age of ten and old people above the age of sixty. Professor Lewis Smythe, who was in Nanking as a member of the International Committee for the Nanking Safety Zone, wrote in his letter to Tokuyasu Fukuda, a probationary diplomat of the Japanese Embassy in Nanking, that according to this figure, the population of Nanking was about 250,000-270,000.

Many Nanking citizens thus came back to the city, and the population increased. Would the citizens have come back to a city in which there had been a massacre?

Press Reports

On the day when the Japanese troops entered Nanking, more than 100 press reporters and photographers entered together with them. The press corps were not only from Japan, but also from European and American press organizations, including Reuters and AP. However, none of the press corps reported the occurrence of a massacre of 300,000 people. Paramount News (American newsreels) made films reporting the Japanese occupation in Nanking, but did not report the occurrence of a massacre.

The British newspaper North China Daily News, which was published in China in English on December 24, 1937, eleven days after the Japanese occupation of Nanking, carried a photo taken in Nanking by their photographer. The photo was entitled "Japanese distribute gifts in Nanking." In the photo are Japanese soldiers distributing gifts, and Chinese adults and children receiving the gifts and rejoicing. Is this the scene of a massacre?

Radio Addresses

The Chinese leader Chiang Kai-shek, who had escaped from Nanking just before the attack by the Japanese military, broadcasted radio addresses hundreds of times to the Chinese people until the end of the Pacific War. He never mentioned the Nanking Massacre even once. This is very unnatural—if the mass slaughter really occurred.

Newspaper Photos

At the time of the Japanese occupation of Nanking, a major Japanese newspaper, Asahi Shinbun, published many photos of Nanking. Five days after the occupation the newspaper reported on the peaceful scenes of Nanking. In one of the photos, Japanese soldiers are buying something from a Chinese without carrying their guns. In another photo, Chinese farmers who returned to Nanking are cultivating their fields. In others, a crowd of Chinese citizens are returning to Nanking carrying bags, and Chinese adults and children wearing armbands of the flag of Japan are standing around a street barbershop and smiling.

The Asahi Shinbun also reported scenes of Nanking eight days after the occupation in an article entitled, "Kindnesses to Yesterday's Enemy." In one of the photos, Chinese soldiers are receiving medical treatment from Japanese army surgeons. In another, Chinese soldiers are receiving food from a Japanese soldier. In other photos, Japanese soldiers are buying goods at a Chinese shop, a Japanese officer is talking with a Chinese leader across a table, and Chinese citizens are shown relaxing. Are these the scenes of a massacre? Articles from other dates are similar, reporting that peaceful Chinese living returned to Nanking. Many Chinese civilians came back to the city; farmers began to cultivate their fields and merchants began to do business again. How can we say there was a massacre in the city?

The sources of these photos are very clear. They can be seen at the National Diet Library of Japan. We cannot deny that they were taken in Nanking just after the Japanese occupation.

The Japanese Military Did Not Attack Civilians

Before the battle of Nanking, the commander General Iwane Matsui ordered the Japanese army to be very careful not to kill any civilians.

During the battle, every civilian took refuge in the Nanking Safety Zone, which was specially set up to protect all the civilians of Nanking. The Japanese army knew that many Chinese soldiers were also in the Zone; nevertheless, the army did not attack it, and there were no civilian victims, except for several who were accidentally killed or injured by stray shells.

This Nanking Safety Zone was managed by the International Committee for the Nanking Safety Zone, which was a group of professors, doctors, missionaries and businessmen from Europe and the USA. They did not leave Nanking before the beginning of the battle, but chose to remain in the city. The leader of the Committee was John Rabe, and after the Japanese occupation, he handed a letter of thanks to the commander of the Japanese army. The following is an excerpt from his letter of thanks:

December 14, 1937
Dear commander of the Japanese army in Nanking,
We appreciate that the artillerymen of your army did not attack the Safety Zone. We hope to contact you to make a plan to protect the general Chinese citizens who are staying in the Safety Zone….We will be pleased to cooperate with you in any way to protect the general citizens in this city.
--Chairman of the Nanking International Committee, John H. D. Rabe--"

If the Japanese military wanted to massacre every Nanking citizen, it would have been very easily done if they only bombarded the Nanking Safety Zone, because it was a narrow area and all civilians gathered there. The Japanese military did not attack it, but rather protected all the people of the Zone.

The reason why the Japanese military attacked Nanking was similar to the reason why the American and the allied militaries once attacked Baghdad of Iraq at the Gulf War in 1991. The alliance wanted to get rid of the Iraqi dictator who was doing bad things to neighboring countries. Similarly, Japan wanted to get rid of Chiang Kai-shek’s dictatorship which was giving torments to many Chinese people and also to Japan. General Matsui’s purpose of the war was not to take the land, but to save Chinese civilians from his dictatorship and from the Chinese civil war, killing among the Chinese themselves. Japan wanted to establish in China a strong Chinese government not of communists, not of Western powers, but of the Chinese people who were willing to build in cooperation with Japan the great Asia which would not be invaded by communists or exploited by Westerners. It was impossible for such Japanese military to kill Chinese civilians.

Traditionally in Japan, Samurai warriors lived inside walls of castle, and farmers and merchants outside the walls. Civilian cities were not walled. A war was a fight only among warriors, and they never killed civilians. While, in China, farmers and merchants lived inside a walled city, and in wars the inhabitants including the farmers and merchants inside the walls were often all slaughtered with warriors. In Chinese chronicles, we often read such massacres. The Chinese language has the word which writes slaughtering castle and means slaughtering all people within the city. It was a Chinese culture. The Japanese never had such a culture. Nanking was a walled capital city, and the idea of massacring all inhabitants was Chinese, not Japanese.

Total Number of Buried Bodies

After the battle of Nanking, the Japanese military entrusted the burial of the dead to the Chinese.

The International Military Tribunal for the Far East (Tokyo Trial) used the burial records of about 40,000 bodies by the Red Swastika Society, a voluntary association in Nanking, and the burial records of 112,267 bodies by the Chung Shan Tang (Tsung Shan Tong), a 140-year-old charitable organization, as evidence of killings of the Japanese military. The combined total was about 155,000.

However, concerning the Chung Shan Tang, none of the documents which were written by members of the International Committee in Nanking or the Japanese authorities in Nanking mentioned that the Tsun Shan Tang was engaged in the burial work. Kenichi Ara, a researcher of modern history, showed evidence in an article of the Sankei Shinbun newspaper that the Chung Shan Tang's burial report of 112,267 bodies had been entirely forged and that they had actually buried no bodies. The Chung Shan Tang's report was a false one added after the war to amplify the number of burials.

It was a fact that the Red Swastika Society engaged in the burial work. They buried almost all the war dead in Nanking, and according to the Society, the burials reached about 40,000. This is far from 300,000. In addition, these 40,000 were killed in battle, not in a massacre, because among the bodies were almost no corpses of women and children. *This means that the Japanese military did not massacre civilians. I will mention the details later.

Denial of Massacre in Testimonies

Shudo Higashinakano, a professor at Asia University in Tokyo, published a compilation of the testimonies of Japanese soldiers who had participated in the Nanking operation in his book entitled, The Truth of the Nanking Operation in 1937. In these testimonies, no Japanese soldiers testified that there had been a massacre. For instance, Colonel Omigaku Mori stated, "I have never heard or seen any massacre in Nanking."

Kenichi Ara, a researcher of modern history, published a compilation of the testimonies of Japanese press reporters, soldiers and diplomats who had experienced Nanking during the Japanese campaign. In these testimonies, also, no one testified that there had been a massacre of civilians. Yoshio Kanazawa, a photographer from the Tokyo Nichinichi Shinbun newspaper, testified, "I entered Nanking with the Japanese army and walked around in the city at random every day, but I have never seen any massacre nor heard it from soldiers or my colleagues. It is impossible for me to say that there was a massacre. Of course, I saw many corpses, but they were those killed in battle.”

Tokuyasu Fukuda, who was in Nanking as a Japanese diplomat, testified, "It is a fact that there were crimes and bad aspects of the Japanese military, but there was absolutely no massacre of 200,000-300,000, or even 1,000 people. Every citizen was watching us. If we had done such a thing (massacre), it would be a terrible problem. Absolutely it is a lie, false propaganda."

Kannosuke Mitoma, a press reporter of the Fukuoka Nichinichi Shinbun newspaper, worked as the head of the Nanking branch office at the time of the Japanese occupation. In those days his daughter attended the Japanese elementary school in Nanking (from the first grade to the fifth). She testified, "I used to play with neighboring Chinese children in Nanking, but I have never heard even a rumor of the massacre."

Humane Activities and Fellowship in Nanking

A chief of infantrymen testified, "We defeated the enemy and saw thousands of them dead on the ground of Nanking. But finding a Chinese soldier still alive, our captain gave him water and medicine. The Chinese soldier folded his hands and said "Xie xie" (Thank you) with tears welled up in his eyes. In this way, our infantry company saved 30-40 Chinese soldiers and let them go home. Among them were many who cooperated with us and worked for us. When they had to part from us, they were reluctant to leave, shed tears and then went home."

A sergeant major of infantrymen testified, "On the way to Nanking, I was ordered to stand as a guard having a rifle one night when I noticed a young Chinese lady in Chinese dress walking toward me. She said in fluent Japanese, ‘You are a Japanese soldier, aren't you." And she continued, ‘I ran away from Shanghai; other people were killed or got separated and I thought it would be dangerous for me to be near the Chinese military, so I've come here." "Where did you learn Japanese?" said I, and she said, "I graduated from a school in Nagasaki, Japan, and later, worked for a Japanese bookstore in Shanghai." We checked but there was nothing suspicious on her. And since we did not have any translator, we decided to hire her as a translator. She was also very good at cooking, knowing Japanese taste, and turned on all her charm for all of us, so we made much of her. She sometimes sang Japanese songs for us, and her jokes made us laugh. She was the only woman in the military unit but made our hard march pleasant. Before the beginning of our attack to the city of Nanking, the commander made her return to Shanghai."
 
A first lieutenant testified, "When we had just entered the Nanking Safety Zone, every woman was dressed in rags with her face and all her skin dirtied with Chinese ink, oil or m&d to appear as ugly as possible. But after they got to know that the Japanese soldiers were strictly maintaining military discipline, their black faces turned to natural skin, and their dirty clothes turned to fine ones. Soon, I became to come across beautiful ladies in the streets.”

Another soldier testified, "When I was washing my face in a hospital in Nanking, a Chinese man came to me and said, "Good morning, soldier," in fluent Japanese. He continued, "I was in Osaka for 18 years." I asked him to become a translator for the Japanese army. He later went to his family, came back and said, "I told my family, 'The Japanese army have come. So, you are now all safe.'" He cooperated faithfully with the Japanese army for 15 months until we reached Hankou." If there had been a massacre of civilians in Nanking, it would have been impossible for the Chinese man to work for the Japanese.

Naofuku Mikuni, a press reporter, testified, “Nanking citizens were generally cheerful and friendly to the Japanese just after the fall of Nanking, and also in August 1938 when I came back to Nanking.” He points out that if the Japanese crime rate was very high, such cheerfulness would not have been seen in the city.

Not only these Japanese persons, but also James McCallum, who was in Nanking as an American medical doctor, wrote in his diary on December 31. 1937, "Today I saw crowds of people flocking across Chung Shan [Zhongshan] Road out of the Zone. They came back later carrying rice which was being distributed by the Japanese from the Executive Yuan Examination Yuan.” McCallum also wrote, “I must report a good deed done by some Japanese. Recently several very nice Japanese have visited the hospital. We told them of our lack of food supplies for the patients. Today they brought in 100 shing [jin (equivalent to six kilograms)] of beans along with some beef. We have had no meat at the hospital for a month and these gifts were mighty welcome. They asked what else we would like to have."

Are these the scenes of a city in brutal massacre?

Chinese Soldiers Discarded Military Uniforms

Mochitsura Hashimoto, a Japanese soldier who fought in the battle of Nanking near the Yangtze River, testified, "Though the Chinese soldiers carried their rifles or machine-guns, none of them were in regular military uniform." Other veterans testified, "None of them showed signs of surrender." Therefore, the Japanese army had to continue to attack them, and many of the Chinese soldiers were shot or drowned in the river. However, pictures of these dead soldiers in civilian clothing—who had been killed in battle—were later used in the Western world as "evidence of the massacre of civilians."

Many of the Chinese soldiers in Nanking discarded their military uniforms, and became “illegitimate” combatants. F. Tillman Durdin, an American News correspondent, wrote in his article in the New York Times on December 22, 1937, "I witnessed wholesale undressing of a [Chinese] army.... Many men shed their uniforms.... Others ran into alleys to transform themselves into civilians. Some soldiers disrobed completely and then robbed civilians of their garments." Durdin also wrote that Chinese soldiers who reached the Yangtze River tried to escape using junks, but "many were drowned in periods of panic at the riverbank."

Japanese veterans testify that, when they entered Nanking, they saw throughout the city piles of Chinese military uniforms that had been taken off and abandoned on the ground.

Among the Chinese soldiers who discarded uniforms, those who ran away from the battle fields were killed by the Japanese military, or by a "Chinese supervisory unit"—Chinese soldiers who were ordered to kill any of their fellow soldiers trying to flee from the battlefield. The US military and the Japanese military do not have such a unit, but Chinese soldiers trying to escape from battle field were killed by the supervisory unit who was waiting behind. These killed ones did not wear military uniforms, but they were actually soldiers.

There were also Chinese soldiers who discarded military uniforms and killed Chinese civilians to obtain civilian clothing and to hide themselves among citizens. James Espy, the American vice-consul at Nanking, reported to the American Embassy at Hankow concerning conditions before the fall of Nanking, writing, "During the last few days some violations of people and property were undoubtedly committed by them [Chinese soldiers]. Chinese soldiers in their mad rush to discard their military uniforms and put on civilian clothes, in a number of incidents, killed civilians to obtain their clothing."

The Chinese military was basically a scratched-together army of hooligans, having no military discipline or concept of international law. They were the same as bandits. They did not protect Chinese civilians, but rather plundered of them, set fire to houses, raped women and killed civilians. They did these things also in Nanking, as we will see the details later.

Incorrect Reports of Civilian Casualties

One of the sources of the Nanking Massacre story was the description of Miner S. Bates, who was in Nanking as a member of the International Committee for the Nanking Safety Zone and later was a key witness of the Tokyo Trial. He wrote on January 25, 1938,

"Evidence from burials indicates that close to forty thousand unarmed persons were killed within and near the walls of Nanking, of whom some 30 percent had never been soldiers."

Firstly, it is noteworthy that Bates never mentioned 300,000 or several hundred thousand victims. Not only he, but also any other people in those days did not mention such a large number. 300,000 was the figure amplified after the war as a political propaganda. Bates wrote “40,000.” Secondly, Bates wrote that these 40,000 victims were unarmed persons, and some “30 percent” (12,000 persons) were civilians. These words would give people the impression that they were killed by the Japanese military. Was the description correct?

No, it was incorrect and tricky. "Evidence from burials,” which Bates referred to, was the burial list of the Red Swastika Society who buried almost all of the war dead of the Japanese Nanking campaign. According to the list, they buried close to 40,000 bodies. This was the total number of all who were killed in Nanking, except Japanese soldiers. Most of the bodies were of armed Chinese soldiers, not “unarmed persons.”

Bates estimated that some 30 percent out of the 40,000 had been civilians. However, Professor Tadao Takemoto (Tsukuba University) and Professor Yasuo Ohara (Kokugakuin University) point out that the “evidence from burials” of the Red Swastika Society in fact contains only 0.3% of women and children.

The burial list has the distinction of sex and rough age. If the Japanese military killed many civilians, the percentage of women and children must have been very high, yet it was actually almost none. In addition, these burial records include burials that were carried out not only of the period of the Japanese Nanking campaign, but also of some period after the campaign. If the “evidence” is limited to only burials during the campaign, the number of women and children among the burials would become less than 0.3 %. This shows a clear contradiction to the thought that the Japanese military massacred civilians.

We must also note that many Chinese civilians, who were male and adult, were killed by the Chinese soldiers who discarded military uniforms and tried to obtain civilian clothing, as in above-mentioned report of Espy. Thousands out of the 40,000 bodies must have been such civilian adult men killed by these Chinese soldiers. Even the women and children as 0.3 % out of the 40,000 could have been the victims of these Chinese soldiers.

Chinese Soldiers Killed Civilians

It is a question why Espy testified that there were civilians killed by Chinese soldiers, but Bates did not mention any such things. Bates rather declared that the Japanese military was responsible for all of these, not mentioning or hiding facts about these Chinese assailants. It turned out after the war that Bates had been an adviser to the Chinese Nationalist Party. He was after the war decorated by Chiang Kai-shek, the head of the Party, for his “contribution.”

Bates was a cooperator to the strategy of the Chinese Nationalist Party. The Party’s strategy was to do anything to convey the news of a miserable state of China and atrocities of the Japanese to the world for dragging the United States into the war against Japan. Professor Higashinakano claims that Bates’ report was made in accordance with this strategy to deceive the United States.

As for the civilian victims to have been far from 300,000 or 40,000, we have the war damage investigation made by Professor Lewis S. C. Smythe, who was in Nanking as a sociology professor. It was the only scholarly on-the-spot investigation in those days, which we can considerably trust. According to him, the total number of civilian victims (killed or missing) in the urban area of Nanking was 6,600. I will mention the details later.

Not only this is very far from 300,000 or 40,000, but also this is the figure not specifying who the assailants were. This figure in fact included many civilians killed by the Chinese military. The Chinese military in Nanking took away civilian young men from the Safety Zone and made them soldiers or do hard work. Chinese soldiers also killed many civilian male adults to take civilian clothes and run away from the battlefield. Most of these 6,600 civilian victims were the victims of the Chinese military, not the Japanese.

This is why the China Year Book 1938-1939 removed the reference to "massacre" and only recorded the accusation of Bates. In fact, when an officer from the Embassy of the United States in Tokyo visited Nanking in April 1938, four months after the Japanese occupation, to hear from Bates detailed information about the Japanese occupation, he did not say one word about the massacre. Bates could not tell about the massacre to the man who actually saw the peaceful scenes of Nanking.

Bates’ Testimony: True or False?

Miner Bates testified in the Tokyo Trial after World War II that he had seen many civilian dead bodies lying about everywhere in his neighborhood for many days in Nanking after its fall. It was one of the sources of the Nanking Massacre myth.

Did he tell a fact? According to the Japanese newspaper Tokyo Nichinichi Shinbun on December 26, 1937, which reports when correspondents Wakaume and Murakami visited Professor Bates at his official university residence on December 15, two days after the fall of Nanking, Bates welcomed them in a good humor, shook hands with them and said, “I am so happy that the orderly Japanese military entered Nanking and peace has been restored to the city.” The correspondents did not see in his neighborhood the “…many civilian dead bodies lying about everywhere,” which Bates testified to have seen.

Yuji Maeda, a Domei Tsushin correspondent who spent days in the Nanking Safety Zone like Bates did, denies that there were massacred bodies as follows: “Those who claim that a massacre took place in Nanking…assert that most of the victims were women and children. However, these supposed victims were, without exception, in the Safety Zone and protected by the Japanese Security Headquarters. The Nanking Bureau of my former employer, Domei Tsushin, was situated inside the Safety Zone. Four days after the occupation, all of us moved to the Bureau, which served both as our lodgings and workplace. Shops had already reopened, and life had returned to normal. We were privy to anything and everything that happened in the Safety Zone. No massacre claiming tens of thousands, or thousands, or even hundreds of victims could have taken place there without our knowing about it, so I can state with certitude that none occurred. Chinese soldiers were executed, some perhaps cruelly, but those executions were acts of war and must be judged from that perspective. There were no mass murders of non-combatants.” (World and Japan magazine issued by Naigai News Agency, #413, April 5, 1984)

Not only these correspondents, but also Japanese veterans and other press reporters testify that they did not see any massacred civilians in Nanking. Correspondent Kondo of the Asahi Shinbun newspaper testified about his experience in Nanking, "There was a fierce battle at the Guanghua Gate. I saw corpses of both Chinese and Japanese soldiers there, but I did not see any civilian corpses."

Jiro Nimura, a Mainichi Shinbun photographer, testified, "I climbed up a wall of Nanking and entered the city with the 47th regiment. Inside the walls I saw only a few dead bodies." And Isamu Tanida, a staff officer of the 10th Army, testified, "On December 14, the city was already quiet and I heard no shots there. In the afternoon I walked around in the city taking some pictures, when I saw a few corpses of Chinese soldiers only."

A veteran of the 7th Regiment, which was assigned to sweep the Safety Zone, testified that the regimental command had been, "Don't kill citizens. Don't dishonor the army," and they had followed this command. He testifies, "Absolutely there was no massacre." Thus, nobody saw the alleged massacred civilians inside the Safety Zone, as well as outside it.

The information given by Bates on the massacre of civilians was not what he witnessed, but an incorrect estimation, or what he heard from the Chinese officers whom the members of the International Committee had sheltered. There is no name of Bates in the "witness" section of any Committee murder case reports. Bates’ report on Japanese atrocities is written all in a hearsay style. In addition, he could not prove the massacre of civilians when he was required to show proof by Consul John M. Allison.

Information Source of Durdin’s Report

Miner Bates was an information source for the press also. On December 18, 1937, the American correspondent F. Tillman Durdin wrote in the New York Times, “all the alleys and streets were filled with civilian bodies, including women and children.”

However, this article was not what Durdin himself witnessed, for Durdin wrote, “Foreigners who toured the city and saw that all the alleys and streets were...” Durdin thus wrote what he had heard. Who were the “foreigners”? They were Rabe, Bates, and other International Committee members; however, no one in Nanking actually saw such civilian corpses in alleys and streets. So didn’t Durdin.

Durdin in fact wrote this article based on what he had heard from Bates, for Bates drove Durdin to the harbor on December 15 to see him off, and Durdin got on board a ship and left Nanking at 2:00 p.m. Bates later wrote in a letter of April 12, 1938, that he had given a memo about the incidents of Nanking to Durdin and other correspondents on December 15. Durdin's article was written according to this memo that Bates handed him. Bates was a source of false information on the alleged massacre of civilians in Nanking.

In 1938, the book entitled What War Means written by H.J. Timperley was published. Timperley, who was not in Nanking, but in Shanghai, wrote in the book sensationally about the massacre of Nanking civilians. This book is famous for having given a strong influence to the US public opinions. The information source was also Bates, for Timperley wrote so in the book. Bates, as an adviser to the Chinese Nationalist Party, was thus eager to drag the United States into their war against Japan by telling how bad Japan was. Concerning the strategy of the Chinese Nationalist Party, American journalist Theodore H. White, who had been an adviser to the Chinese Nationalist propaganda bureau, confessed:

*“It was considered necessary to lie to it [the United States], to deceive it, to do anything to persuade America. . . . That was the only strategy of the Chinese government. . . .” (In Search of History: A Personal Adventure)


Chinese Soldiers Killed by Chinese Supervisory Units

The American correspondent F. Tillman Durdin reported in the New York Times that he had witnessed on December 15 a lot of bodies of dead Chinese soldiers forming a small mound six feet high at the Nanking Yijiang gate in the north.

Concerning this mound of Chinese dead, Professor Tokushi Kasahara interviewed Durdin on August 14, 1987. Durdin stated that the mound had been formed before the Japanese military reached there, and that the Chinese soldiers had not been killed by the Japanese military. He said, "The bodies were Chinese soldiers who tried to escape.... I think that the mound of bodies had been formed before the Japanese military occupied there. In that area there was no combat of the Japanese military."

According to Professor Higashinakano, the bodies witnessed by Durdin had been killed by the Chinese supervisory unit that had been waiting behind to kill Chinese soldiers trying to escape from the battlefield. The American or Japanese military never have such a unit, but the Chinese military always had such a unit to kill their fellow soldiers.

Professor Bunyu Ko at Takushoku University in Tokyo estimated that throughout the Sino-Japanese war the victims killed by such Chinese supervisory units had been more than those killed by the Japanese military.

In Nanking also, there were many Chinese soldiers who were killed by the Chinese supervisory unit, not by the Japanese military. The casualties that Miner Bates and other Committee members mentioned included such victims.

Only Legitimate Executions

When the defeat of the Chinese military became definite in the battle of Nanking, Chinese soldiers had three choices. The first was to surrender, and those who surrendered were taken as POWs (prisoners of war). The second was to escape from Nanking. Those who ran away were killed either by the Japanese military or the Chinese supervisory unit. The third was to hide, wearing civilian clothes, in the Safety Zone which had been specially set up inside the walls of Nanking for civilians. Every Nanking citizen was taking refuge in the Safety Zone, and many of the Chinese soldiers took this choice and hid themselves in the Zone.

After the fall of Nanking, the Japanese military did a mop-up operation to find those Chinese soldiers hiding in the Zone. Those who were caught and found hiding weapons were executed. They were considered to have been preparing a street fighting or guerilla activities. According to Professor Higashinakano, the Japanese military executed several thousand such dangerous Chinese soldiers. Some scenes of this execution were witnessed by both Western and Japanese press reporters.
 
Interesting, german lady donate photos.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200204/08/print20020408_93662.htmlPhotos From Germany Offer New Evidence of Nanjing Massacre
German woman Edith Gunther has recently donated 41 photos to the Memorial Hall of the Victims in the Nanjing Massacre in east China's Jiangsu Province, presenting new evidence of the holocaust committed by Japanese invaders during the Second World War.

The photos were all copies of pictures taken by Edith's husband,Karl, who, together with other friendly foreigners, helped set up a refugee camp at the Jiangnan Cement Plant during the massacre, saving as many as 50,000 lives.

Karl Gunther took great risks in taking pictures reflecting life in the Qixia Temple and Jiangnan Cement Plant refugee camps between the winter of 1937 and the spring of 1938, and the demolishing of the cement plant by Japanese troops.

"These pictures preserved by foreign nationals will help revealthe truth of the Nanjing Massacre and offer new evidence against the vicious arguments of Japanese rightists who have attempted to deny the aggressors' crimes," Zhu Chengshan, head of the memorial hall, said at the donation ceremony.

About 300,000 Chinese were killed by Japanese troops after the fall of Nanjing, the then capital of the Kuomintang government, inthe winter of 1937.
 
Yes agree, both side has blood on their hands, and we do have relatives (my parent did fought against the jap) or someone we know die fighting the Japan imperial army, but to deny the rape of Nanjing....don't need to go there.

Japan has never ever sincerely apologise for their war crime.

Japan never apologize for war crime ... Go and google .. Don't be like those ah tiong
 
Japan never apologize for war crime ... Go and google .. Don't be like those ah tiong

If they did, why would they deny that Naning Masscare, apologising for the war yes but not for their crime, lik you have your opnion and i do have mine it is no apologize at all.

No need to name call, just google and you see lot of photos
 
If we have a look at the List of war apology statements issued by Japan, it could appear as if Japan has indeed apologised many times for its WWII atrocities
 
If they did, why would they deny that Naning Masscare, apologising for the war yes but not for their crime, lik you have your opnion and i do have mine it is no apologize at all.

No need to name call, just google and you see lot of photos

Apologise for Nanjing killing ? If it did not happen apologize for what ? Sorry for the name calling . Just slip of tougue .
 
Japan has apologized for the general war including in Korea 14 times.

Japan has apologized to Korea individually for its colonialism and the war 15 times.

Japan has apologized for the comfort woman situation in Asia (includes Korea) 5 times.

Japan has apologized to Korea individually for Korean comfort women 4 times.

These apologies do not include the compensation paid to comfort women under the 1965 treaty, that the South Korean government withheld from individuals and instead invested it in industry. A treaty which exempts Japan from any further payment obligations to South Korea.

It also does not include the setup of the Asian Women’s Fund which included a personal signed apology to individual comfort women from the Japanese Prime Minister at the time (Murayama).
 
Just a few piece of old photo can be evidence ? What about ppl who said they took a photo of god or ghost ?
 
Japan never apologize for war crime ... Go and google .. Don't be like those ah tiong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sook_Ching_massacre

"The figures of the death toll vary. Official Japanese statistics show fewer than 5000 while the Singaporean Chinese community claims the numbers to be around 100,000. Lee Kuan Yew, the founding Prime Minister who ruled Singapore from 1959 to 1990, said in a Discovery Channel programme that the estimated death toll was, "Somewhere between 50,000 to 100,000 young men, Chinese".[7]

In an interview on 6 July 2009 with National Geographic, Lee Kuan Yew said:

I was a Chinese male, tall and the Japanese were going for people like me because Singapore had been the centre for the collection of ethnic Chinese donations to Chongqing to fight the Japanese. So they were out to punish us. They slaughtered 70,000 - perhaps as high as 90,000 but verifiable numbers would be about 70,000. But for a stroke of fortune, I would have been one of them.[12]

Hirofumi Hayashi in another paper says that the death toll "needs further investigation".

According to the diary of the Singapore garrison commander, Major General Kawamura Saburo, the total number reported to him as killed by the various Kempeitai section commanders on 23 February was five thousand. This was the third day of mop-up operations when executions were mostly finished. It is said in Singapore that the total number killed was forty or fifty thousand; this point needs further investigations.[13]

Having witnessed the brutality of the Japanese, Lee made the following comments:

But they also showed a meanness and viciousness towards their enemies equal to the Huns'. Genghis Khan and his hordes could not have been more merciless. I have no doubts about whether the two atom bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary. Without them, hundreds of thousands of civilians in Malaya and Singapore, and millions in Japan itself, would have perished.[14]"

Wahahahahaa. I do not know what say. Should I feel happy that LKY is telling a truth or a liar? No. Jippun no lie. They lumber one. You know for NKM, the way it is explained is based on a cheena approach. 大事化小小事化无=>大きな問題を小さな事として済ませ、小さな問題は無かったことにして済ませ。First say yes but not a lot then slowly head to say do not have. Wah, Jippunese so Chinese. Got coal mine accident in China, pay money then report can drop from 100,000 to 0 oso can. East Asia brothers of the 3 countries think alike. If the 3 countries like to screw themselves, please do. Do not involve SE Asia. No worries, even with no East Asia entry, other countries from EU will still come to invest and build factories. wahjahahaha
 
Nanjing killing is a controversial issue .. Even now . Anything that is controversial we must not blindly accept the so called truth .
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sook_Ching_massacre

"The figures of the death toll vary. Official Japanese statistics show fewer than 5000 while the Singaporean Chinese community claims the numbers to be around 100,000. Lee Kuan Yew, the founding Prime Minister who ruled Singapore from 1959 to 1990, said in a Discovery Channel programme that the estimated death toll was, "Somewhere between 50,000 to 100,000 young men, Chinese".[7]

In an interview on 6 July 2009 with National Geographic, Lee Kuan Yew said:

I was a Chinese male, tall and the Japanese were going for people like me because Singapore had been the centre for the collection of ethnic Chinese donations to Chongqing to fight the Japanese. So they were out to punish us. They slaughtered 70,000 - perhaps as high as 90,000 but verifiable numbers would be about 70,000. But for a stroke of fortune, I would have been one of them.[12]

Hirofumi Hayashi in another paper says that the death toll "needs further investigation".

According to the diary of the Singapore garrison commander, Major General Kawamura Saburo, the total number reported to him as killed by the various Kempeitai section commanders on 23 February was five thousand. This was the third day of mop-up operations when executions were mostly finished. It is said in Singapore that the total number killed was forty or fifty thousand; this point needs further investigations.[13]

Having witnessed the brutality of the Japanese, Lee made the following comments:

But they also showed a meanness and viciousness towards their enemies equal to the Huns'. Genghis Khan and his hordes could not have been more merciless. I have no doubts about whether the two atom bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary. Without them, hundreds of thousands of civilians in Malaya and Singapore, and millions in Japan itself, would have perished.[14]"

Wahahahahaa. I do not know what say. Should I feel happy that LKY is telling a truth or a liar? No. Jippun no lie. They lumber one. You know for NKM, the way it is explained is based on a cheena approach. 大事化小小事化无=>大きな問題を小さな事として済ませ、小さな問題は無かったことにして済ませ。First say yes but not a lot then slowly head to say do not have. Wah, Jippunese so Chinese. Got coal mine accident in China, pay money then report can drop from 100,000 to 0 oso can. East Asia brothers of the 3 countries think alike. If the 3 countries like to screw themselves, please do. Do not involve SE Asia. No worries, even with no East Asia entry, other countries from EU will still come to invest and build factories. wahjahahaha

Whahahahaahna after debating how lazy Japanese is , about their nukes , about unemployed rate ... Ect. Now you want to talk about war crime again ;) Whahahahaha u trying very hard here hor ;)
 
Last edited:
Whahahahaahna after debating how lazy Japanese is , about their nukes , about unemployed rate ... Ect. Now you want to talk about war crime again ;) Whahahahaha u trying very hard here hor ;)

Not as hard as you. Wahahaha.
 
When u know your debate is not in your favour u jump around like a ah tiong vampire ;)
 
Back
Top