Does this make Sense!

[eatshitndie]

So the consensus is that bangla also get min wage?

"Got min wage... i grab!"

that's the problem with the minimum wage argument - it can't be imposed on everyone; it it does, all the cheap foreigners will want to become legit residents; otherwise, there will be a dual economy: aboveboard and underground, where the cheap foreigners dominate the cash jobs.

 

[eatshitndie]

btw, it's a good thing you guys trash this out with lao jiao's here before you go to the podium to contest in the elections. otherwise, old man will trash you to bits at the polls.

 

[scroobal]

I was once told of an Asian saying by someone - never give a monkey a flower. Liew Mun Leong in 1979 was part of the systems engineers that did the Education review that screwed a generation. He is now the founder and king of Singapore REITS program. He completely transformed the all the well laid risk from the days of Dr Han and DBS Land and is heavy into China. He starts his morning at China Club. I have never seen anyone putting all his eggs in one basket. This is one monkey with too many eggs.

Mapletree is property spin off from PSA and Ascendas is from JTC. These reits are formed with the privatisation of civil service. In short it is another way for temasek to raise equity and make more money. I am now waiting for the caas spin off Changi airport group to become another reit. Just watch.

 

[Rogue Trader]

CBD area



I'm actually blowing up the price of rental for my example. My previous workplace, 1 of the shophouses along stanley street cost less then $8K a month for the WHOLE BUILDING!!!!

how long ago since you left your previous shophouse workplace? last year? 5 year ago? the property rental market go boomz since 2006. i will be surprise anyone can get a decent office for less than 10k in town now.

Ok nevermind. lets carry on with your example. $10k/$15psf = 666 sq feet. Decent size for a office? can fit 5 workers + boss office + filing cabinets + meeting room? OK nevermind... lets assuming all can fit inside one office.

And i can tell u more thing else about commercial property rental. They always bait new tenant in with cheap rental during the first year contract. when they see your business is good, they will increase price for next year. Commercial property agencies have expert analysts who chart revenue based on economy/industrial sector.

So you not happy with new rental rates? want to move out? then pay for new office negotiation, shifting, address change and other business disruption?

don't get me started about commercial property market. one of my chiobu girlfriend used to be an agent.

 

[Rogue Trader]

I was once told of an Asian saying by someone - never give a monkey a flower. Liew Mun Leong in 1979 was part of the systems engineers that did the Education review that screwed a generation. He is now the founder and king of Singapore REITS program. He completely transformed the all the well laid risk from the days of Dr Han and DBS Land and is heavy into China. He starts his morning at China Club. I have never seen anyone putting all his eggs in one basket. This is one monkey with too many eggs.

Sorry my history no good. who is Dr han?

who are the other Dr Goh system engineers? I know failip yeo was one.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Yes, i agree. A minimum wage law is not a gaurantee of employment.

Additionally, if labour costs increase per hour, companies can basically cut those working hours.

For-profit companies are in the business of making money. HIgher wage costs will not necessarily lead to a cutting of employees as long as the employees were there as a positive productive input.

The minimum wage you have in mind is probably skewed by the PAPists' ways in managing housing costs in SG.

Minimum wage only affects the lower income employees. You are probably thinking that everyone's wage will increase by 50-100% like how your owners increase their own salary. I envisage minimum wage will increase total labour costs only marginally.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Care to share what is so successful about the Australian model? Or did you just quote it because it has a higher minimum wage than the U.s. and thus it is a successful example of policy sustainability?

Remember that Australia has ample minerals and commodities. And not to mention a work force that is willing to do the true blue blue-collar work (of which minimum wage is largely targeted at).

Australia doesn't have a strategic geographical location to allow it to be a go-between the east and west for trade. Without our geographical location, a natural resource, your LKY would still be selling cheap glue to earn a living while at the same time work for the kempetei.

 

[Char_Azn]

how long ago since you left your previous shophouse workplace? last year? 5 year ago? the property rental market go boomz since 2006. i will be surprise anyone can get a decent office for less than 10k in town now.

Ok nevermind. lets carry on with your example. $10k/$15psf = 666 sq feet. Decent size for a office? can fit 5 workers + boss office + filing cabinets + meeting room? OK nevermind... lets assuming all can fit inside one office.

And i can tell u more thing else about commercial property rental. They always bait new tenant in with cheap rental during the first year contract. when they see your business is good, they will increase price for next year. Commercial property agencies have expert analysts who chart revenue based on economy/industrial sector.

So you not happy with new rental rates? want to move out? then pay for new office negotiation, shifting, address change and other business disruption?

don't get me started about commercial property market. one of my chiobu girlfriend used to be an agent.

How big office U need. The current office I work in cost <10K a month and host 36 person. Location? Opposite Lau Pa Sat. Dun know about your Chio Bu gf but I know about what we are paying, in fact we just renew the lease last year.

Doesn't sound like this office cost 10K either.
http://property.st701.com/propertie...uiltin_area_select=feet&land_area_select=feet

Strange. Must be the companies I work for keeps getting lucky with rent. Please excuse my ignorance

 

[axe168]

Care to share what is so successful about the Australian model? Or did you just quote it because it has a higher minimum wage than the U.s. and thus it is a successful example of policy sustainability?

Remember that Australia has ample minerals and commodities. And not to mention a work force that is willing to do the true blue blue-collar work (of which minimum wage is largely targeted at).

In Australia, we have "Australian made and Australian 1st Policy"... We believe in quality work, not quantity hours.. Work-Life balance is a culture for all big organisation. All staff and managers stop work at 5pm sharp !! except a few (voluntarily). There strict rules, employees are not to stay long hours.. employers could be sued !!

Due to the blue collar works performed by our locals.. our OH&S compliance is therefore much stronger.. and they make management accountable for actions.. Managers have to take tough questions. I had a hard time explaining our methodology to the Unions.. finally, I win them over.. we begin to build "trust" around us, after all the hard work, I can continue to relax and lim kopi with support from Unions and our Management

In conclusion, CHEAP is not always good.. Quality is the way to go..
I would like to invite you to experience the life in Australia.. I bet you won't regret

 

[axe168]

My view is two-fold;
Reduce FTs and increase minimum wage.
Reduce FTs to stop competition with ALL LEVELS OF SINGAPOREANs.
Increase minimum wage to help lower paid Singaporean workers (e.g. people working as cleaners earning $800/month)

Why are we putting the burden on employers ? Why are we allowing the govt to continue sucking $$$ without giving..

I have better suggestions.. (no min wages)
- For all singaporean who earned less than $1200.. the govt to top-up the short fall.. For all disabled singaporean, govt shall pay $400/mth
- 70% quota to be singaporean. Some industries to have 45% sinkies.
- Free Life-time Medicare for all RDO NS men
- Milk money for all sinkie babies until 16yo
- No work after 6pm for work-life balance..

If all the above are implemented.. I'm sure more will become Singaporean and more quitters will return

 

[blackreplica]

if i may offer an opinion

IMO policies like a minimum wage is not the answer because it is not a direct attack on the source of the real problem.

The real problem we have in singapore is a gross oversupply of labour, particularly low-skilled labour. Problems such as depressed wages for locals in low skilled jobs is a direct result of this oversupply.

A sucessful fix to the problems would firstly, need to address the sickness (too much cheap labour), and not the symptom (depressed singaporean wages). Having a minimum wage and keeping the floodgates open on the FTs achieves nothing.

A sucessful policy is something simple, easy to enact, and easy to enforce

So all i say is we impose hard limits on foreign labour directly. Once you reduce the supply of labour, most, if not all problems, are solved almost immediately.

Almost overnight, wages go up, particularly for low skilled jobs. Businesses addicted to cheap labour will either find ways to survive or close down. And many will close down. Rentals will fall from lack of demand by inefficient businesses (this will partially solve the rental problem, as rental demand is aritificially high because cheap-labour-dependent businesses are demanding for rental space which is in limited supply). There might even be a mild recession. Bitter pills are hard to swallow but in the long run i believe it is good for us.

All this from a single, simple, enforcable policy change. It is very easy to control how many work visas and PRs we issue. it can happen virtually overnight and will have an immediate effect. Implementation issues like ensuring more passes go to firms who need low cost labour like the construction vs industries like services where the FTs should simply have little or no access to is easily controllable and can be sorted out very quickly

The main thing we need to do is get over the fact that we need to wean ourselves off cheap foreign labour because it is killing us in the long run

Reducing labour supply also does not contribute to any market inefficiency the way minimum wages, subsidies for local workers, etc would, it would merely encourage factor re-allocation, a desirable objective which would also increase labour productivity and capital usage.

At the end of the day, any change in economic policies will have winners and losers. Winners? Singaporean low wage workers who will find it easier to gain employment and enjoy higher wages. Efficient businesses are also winners provided they are able to survive because rentals will decrease Losers? Unproductive business who have only been able to survive this long because cheap labour was readily available to them. Higher income singaporeans will 'lose' as well because we must be prepared to pay higher prices for things if we want our countrymen at the lower rung to enjoy a better life. Oh, and instead of having a White Coffee outlet at every shopping centre, we might only have one in every other shopping centre

Ask yourselves if you think this is a worthwhile tradeoff.

 

[iamtalkinglah]

Why are we putting the burden on employers ? Why are we allowing the govt to continue sucking $$$ without giving..

I have better suggestions.. (no min wages)
- For all singaporean who earned less than $1200.. the govt to top-up the short fall.. For all disabled singaporean, govt shall pay $400/mth
- 70% quota to be singaporean. Some industries to have 45% sinkies.
- Free Life-time Medicare for all RDO NS men
- Milk money for all sinkie babies until 16yo
- No work after 6pm for work-life balance..

If all the above are implemented.. I'm sure more will become Singaporean and more quitters will return

You proposed policy sounds even better!

 

[iamtalkinglah]

if i may offer an opinion

IMO policies like a minimum wage is not the answer because it is not a direct attack on the source of the real problem.
....
Oh, and instead of having a White Coffee outlet at every shopping centre, we might only have one in every other shopping centre

Ask yourselves if you think this is a worthwhile tradeoff.

Firstly, I like the words highlighted in red above!
Actually I do agree with what you have said.
The reason why I proposed a minimum wage is because I want to "make full use" of the cheap foreigner worker but not let it result in them taking over Singaporeans' rice bowls.

If a foreign worker is willing to be paid at $800 for a cleaner job (for a Singaporean it is not worthwhile and they accept only $1,000 because, they need to feed their families in Singapore while the foreigner's family is in e.g. China - so cost of living is lower and thus accept the $800 wage), then why not paid the foreign workers $800 and the Gov't earn the balance of $200 (as levy)?

Win win situation.
If use Singaporeans, he get paid at $1,000. If use foreigners, he get paid $800 and Gov't earns $200. To the employers, it is at the same cost.

We definitely have to reduce the influx of foreigners.

If anyone here have better suggestion, please voice out.

 

[blackreplica]

Firstly, I like the words highlighted in red above!
Actually I do agree with what you have said.
The reason why I proposed a minimum wage is because I want to "make full use" of the cheap foreigner worker but not let it result in them taking over Singaporeans' rice bowls.

If a foreign worker is willing to be paid at $800 for a cleaner job (for a Singaporean it is not worthwhile and they accept only $1,000 because, they need to feed their families in Singapore while the foreigner's family is in e.g. China - so cost of living is lower and thus accept the $800 wage), then why not paid the foreign workers $800 and the Gov't earn the balance of $200 (as levy)?

Win win situation.
If use Singaporeans, he get paid at $1,000. If use foreigners, he get paid $800 and Gov't earns $200. To the employers, it is at the same cost.

We definitely have to reduce the influx of foreigners.

If anyone here have better suggestion, please voice out.

Again, JMHO, but a minimum wage is a hard thing to implement, monitor, tweak, and most importantly, enforce.

Once a PRC bum is in the country....creative, inefficient employers will find ways and means to get around the minimum wage legislation. He could employ them 'under table' and pay them cash and keep these cash workers off his books. Or he could simply make the PRC take a pay cut to generate cash to pay the levy, depressing the PRC's dismal wages further. Of course, he would be more than agreeable, since he still gets his job. The employer saves his money, and the singaporeans gets to read the job classifieds for another day

Getting around this problem requires very active enforcement..which is costly, and not easy. We all know our government...the will probably close the other eye and pretend nothing is happening as long as business is happy

Implementation is also not easy, and the foreign worker levy will need to be increased constantly to keep up with wage growth...otherwise FTs will eventually become 'cheaper' after a little while...can we count on our dear govt to do that?

With quotas on foreign labour...enforcement takes care of itself since the numbers are fixed, a PRC cannot accept an underhanded wage or job if he isnt here to accept it. Leaving the quota as it is will become increasingly 'painful' as the economy grows...and in order to fix the situation, the government will have to increase the quota, each time they choose to do so, they will have to announce it...debate it (in their own meaningless way, but still)...and implement it...and everytime they do so, they fuck themselves from a PR standpoint. Policing is also much easier because us citizens are able to see the numbers for ourselves i.e. how may new PRs, how many work permits granted. We can easily assess the supply of foreign labour, see how the economy is doing, visit the occasional white coffee outlet and see how well the quota is working. not enough? then we kick up a big stink...just like we are doing now

Not to say minimum wage couldnt work...but it would be much more costly, difficult to implement and police...and in the long run, if nothing is done...the government still wins. which means singaporeans still lose

 

[MFTao]

...amazing indeed this forum!!..some of the forummers here ought to be paid the highest in the world instead of those whiter-than-white...they can't even trash out wage against labour debate!...million dollars my a@@#$!!

 

[nickers9]

14 years ago, after my O levels, i went to work part time selling stuffs in a gift shop. I was paid $5/hr... bus fare was 80c per trip then, and a plate of chicken rice cost $2. 14 years on, my sister in law working as sales assistant at a gift shop in AMK Hub is paid $5 per hour. Bus fare costs $1.20 per trip and a plate of chicken rice costs $3-3.50.

Im sure many here can remember the wages now and then have stayed the same, thus real wages have decreased. This is something which PAP have denied and says standard of living has increased (only for the ultra rich, yes), whereas the majority of ppl have to lower their standard of living, just to be able to pay off all the never-ending loans. Employers can keep wages depressed is only due to one factor and that is the foreign workers where their economies are 10-30 years behind ours, hence they can accept lower wages and send money back.

The govt surely knows of this, but they simply do not want to lift a finger to help the ppl... They are paid highest salaries in the world. Depressing wages and importing foreign workers these kinda strategies any Tom Dick and Harry can think of. To truly be able to say that these ministers are earning their keep, they should be able to create a business-friendly environment while keeping wages fair to the workers.

To be honest, they are highest paid, but simi lan sai SG also kena. Economic Crisis, we kena, H1N1 we kena, Rising Property Prices, we kena, Rising Healthcare costs, we kena, Rising food Prices, we Kena, Rising Transport costs,we kena, Rising Oil Prices, we Kena, inflation, we kena, 50-years-one-time flood, we kena... (Feel free to add to the list) Seems like not one sector is being taken care of properly and PAP will tell you: BOH PIAN lah.. all others also tiok.. then what's so ELITE about them?

Probably the only thing we not kena yet is earthquake and THIS, we need not pay anything for.

There's a saying, ' You pay peanuts, you get monkeys!'

But I am Lee Kuan Yew you know? I make sure anything that I do in my kingdom Singapore is totally different from any other countries. Cause if I do what others are doing, I will lose my face ah!!!

So in my kingdom Singapore, I make sure that when I pay the Sinkies peanuts, I will get a DONKEY!!!

I make sure I will work the Sinkies ASS out ah!!!

Hehehehehe!!!

 

[garlic]

those miws know.. simply they dont care as it does not affect them... they are directors of many big companies so long as these companies can keep wages as low as possible, and bring in huge profits, they get bonuses. Issues like wages and livelihoods of peasants get swept under the carpet.

ALL companies now treat the 13th month as a "Bonus".. a friend was jumping for joy when she received the 13th month pay... In fact, this equates to no bonuses given out as this deserved remuneration for a month of work was held back. A very good example of wages policy whereby workers are exploited. 13th-month pay should be an entitlement and not some "bonuses" Most expatriates i spoke to, has this 13th month negotiated into their basic pay package and some are paid weekly; mostly prorated at month end or are paid actually weekly.

Only Sinkies think that the 13th mth is optional and this was made possible by the PAP, who incidentally are the largest employer in SG, hence they benefit the most from this stupid policy.

 

[garlic]

I assume your sister can do receptionist job since she can be a sales person.
Receptionist job - Salary approximately $1,200, 9-6pm, 5 or 5.5days job.
Sales person - Salary $5*8*27 =$1,080 (assuming off one day/week).

If I am your sister, I rather work as a receptionist. But, of course your sister may have some underlying reason or it may not be easy to find a receptionist job since there are so much FTs!!! See the quote below.

When i make comparisons, i try to compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges, i worked as a sales assistant at the age of 17, after my O levels, my sis-in-law is in same age as i was back then (17) and working as sales assistant. She is still a student now, as i was back then, so it really strikes me when she told me her pay is $5/hr

The salary of a receptionist is now $1,200? GOD!!! More or less the same as last time then.... Put paid to the words "Some things never change"

 

[iamtalkinglah]

Again, JMHO, but a minimum wage is a hard thing to implement, monitor, tweak, and most importantly, enforce.

...

Not to say minimum wage couldnt work...but it would be much more costly, difficult to implement and police...and in the long run, if nothing is done...the government still wins. which means singaporeans still lose

Thanks for sharing your views!
Whatever the policy it is, one thing for sure, Singaporean lower wage earners need to up their salary.

See the following interesting quote:

A well documented consequence of the Foreign Talent policy is that it depresses wages in Singapore. Based on CPF data, the number of active CPF members (ie Singaporean Citizens and PR) who earned less than $800/ month increased by 36.8% to 214,448 in 2008.
At current prices, a HDB flat is NOT “affordable” to a family that earns less than S$1,500 a month. The rise in the number of people earning less than $800/mth means that there is a significant rise in the incidence of families that earn less than $1,500 a month and cannot afford a HDB flat.

It will be a painful experience for a start. I do see your point of view. Did you manage to see this example?

What is the salary of the offer cleaner now? $900?
What is the salary of the dish washer now? $700?
What is the salary of the people who clear your plates at foodcourts? $850?

Then make the minimum wage $1,000 (example la). Do you think it is fair for the Singaporean to earn $800/month when cost of a chicken rice is $3?
Public transport cost $2/trip = $4/day
Breakfast = $2
Lunch = $3
Dinner = $3
Total cost per month = $12/day * 30days = $360
That is almost 50% of gross salary $800. How about rental cost? Utilities cost? CPF?

I think you have mis-understood my suggestion. In fact, the suggestion I have given would make employers hire Singaporeans over foreigners.

EXAMPLE:
Minimum wages for Singaporean = $1,000

Foreigner willing to be paid $800
Then let Levy for foreigners = $220
Net cost for employer = $1,020

If you are an employer you would hire Singaporean or foreigner?
If the employer still want foreigner as PRC perceived to be more hardworking then that employer pay $20 in addition lah.
Gov't earn money then can reduce income tax.

If the Gov't cant commit on the Levy fees then dont. Have a law in place to say that the Levy will determined in the next accounting year when the Gov't received market information on how much a Singaporean earn in the previous year then the Gov't will use this as a basis to price the Levy.
This is just a suggestion, like I said, I am not smart and need the Gov't to work.

I think there are social groups available, headed by foreigners as a platform to voice their concerns (if they feel that employers are not treating them fairly.) And also the recent TAFEP.

So what you are saying is that, we should keep the current policy and the Gov’t will review the policy (foreigner quota) each time we make noise?

Pardon me for saying this, if we need to reach a stage whereby we start to complaint then it would mean that the problem is serious.

Also it is not a guarantee that the lower wages workers' salaries would be increased.

 

[iamtalkinglah]

When i make comparisons, i try to compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges, i worked as a sales assistant at the age of 17, after my O levels, my sis-in-law is in same age as i was back then (17) and working as sales assistant. She is still a student now, as i was back then, so it really strikes me when she told me her pay is $5/hr

The salary of a receptionist is now $1,200? GOD!!! More or less the same as last time then.... Put paid to the words "Some things never change"

Wow! Good analysis! Thanks for comparing apples with apples!!!