Does this make Sense!

[chewed]

right. find the root cause and deal with it. imposing minimum wage is not finding and cannot deal with the root cause. it will turn many small businesses to cash compensation style hiring, just like the businesses here in the u.s.

eat,

we all know the root cause AKA MIW greed, but it can't be dealt with.

How do you roll back cost of living? You can't! then seriously the wage component have to be looked at.

 

[Rogue Trader]

That is exactly right. Rental is the biggest cost burden and Temasek is a major player with Mapletree and the likes. Even MRT has focused on rentals.

Mapletree is property spin off from PSA and Ascendas is from JTC. These reits are formed with the privatisation of civil service. In short it is another way for temasek to raise equity and make more money. I am now waiting for the caas spin off Changi airport group to become another reit. Just watch.

 

[Char_Azn]

Various groups have great ideological, political, financial, and emotional investments in issues surrounding minimum wage laws. For example, agencies that administer the laws have a vested interest in showing that "their" laws do not create unemployment, as do labor unions, whose members' jobs are protected by minimum wage laws. On the other side of the issue, low-wage employers such as restaurants finance the Employment Policies Institute, which has released numerous studies opposing the minimum wage.[27] The presence of these powerful groups and factors means that the debate on the issue is not always based on dispassionate analysis. Additionally, it is extraordinarily difficult to separate the effects of minimum wage from all the other variables that affect employment.[5]

The following table summarizes the arguments made by those for and against minimum wage laws:

Arguments in favor of Minimum Wage Laws

Supporters of the minimum wage claim it has these effects:

* Increases the standard of living for the poorest and most vulnerable class in society and raises average.[1]
* Motivates and encourages employee to work harder. (Contrast with welfare transfer payments.)[28]
* Does not have budget consequence on government. "Neither taxes nor public sector borrowing requirements rise." (Contrast with negative income taxes such as the EITC.)[28]
* Minimum wage is administratively simple; workers only need to report violations of wages less than minimum, minimizing a need for a large enforcement agency.[28]
* Stimulates consumption, by putting more money in the hands of low-income people who spend their entire paychecks.[1]
* Increases the work ethic of those who earn very little, as employers demand more return from the higher cost of hiring these employees.[1]
* Decreases the cost of government social welfare programs by increasing incomes for the lowest-paid.[1]
* Does not have a substantial effect on unemployment compared to most other economic factors [29], and so does not put any extra pressure on welfare systems.
* A study of U.S. states showed that businesses' annual and average payrolls grow faster and employment grew at a faster rate in states with a minimum wage.[30] The study showed a correlation, but did not claim to prove causation.
* Historical evidence shows that at current levels, it neither hurts businesses nor reduces job creation.[31]



Arguments against Minimum Wage Laws

Opponents of the minimum wage claim it has these effects:

* As a labor market analogue of political-economic protectionism, it excludes low cost competitors from labor markets, hampers firms in reducing wage costs during trade downturns, generates various industrial-economic inefficiencies as well as unemployment, poverty, and price rises, and generally dysfunctions.[32]
* Hurts small business more than large business.[33]
* Reduces quantity demanded of workers, either through a reduction in the number of hours worked by individuals, or through a reduction in the number of jobs.[34][35]
* Reduces profit margins of business owners employing minimum wage workers, thus encouraging a move to businesses that do not employ low-skill workers.[36]
* Businesses try to compensate by raising the prices of the goods being sold thus causing inflation and increasing the costs of goods and services produced.[37][38]
* Does not improve the situation of those in poverty, it benefits some at the expense of the poorest and least productive.[39]
* Is a limit on the freedom of both employers and employees, and can result in the exclusion of certain groups from the labor force.[40]
* Businesses spend less on training their employees.[41]
* Is less effective than other methods (e.g. the Earned Income Tax Credit) at reducing poverty, and is more damaging to businesses than those other methods.[41]
* Discourages further education among the poor by enticing people to enter the job market.[41]
* Leads to the outsourcing of domestic manufacturing jobs to other countries.[42]

Today, the International Labour Organization (ILO)[9] and the OECD[29] do not consider that the minimum wage can be directly linked to unemployment in countries which have suffered job losses. Although strongly opposed by both the business community and the Conservative Party when introduced in 1999, the minimum wage introduced in the UK is no longer controversial and the Conservatives reversed their opposition in 2000.[43] A review of its effects found no discernible impact on employment levels.[44]

Since the introduction of a national minimum wage in the UK in 1999, its effects on employment were subject to extensive research and observation by the Low Pay Commission. The Low Pay Commission found that, rather than make employees redundant, employers have reduced their rate of hiring, reduced staff hours, increased prices, and have found ways to cause current workers to be more productive (especially service companies).[45] Neither trade unions nor employer organizations contest the minimum wage, although the latter had especially done so heavily until 1999.

I highlighted the result of the research on the impact of minimum wage, in case someone doesn't want to read the whole thing

I think we need to be prepared for this increased prices. Most who talk about minimum wages usually refuse to address this issue. In most businesses, the bulk of their expenditure is staff wages. It's a good reason why whenever the company doesn't have money, they start retrenching workers, its the easiest way to cut their highest cost.

With the introduction of minimum wage, the company also have to compensate for the increase in expenditure, simply put, they either hire less pple or increase prices. The alternative is of coz "streamlining" processes and increasing "productivity", translation, making the same person do more work so they don't need to hire so many pple.

Those of you who thinks the company will just absorb the cost must be living in La La Land. So the trade off is simple. Are U willing to pay more in exchange for minimum wage?

 

[Highfalutin]

 

[chewed]

I highlighted the result of the research on the impact of minimum wage, in case someone doesn't want to read the whole thing

I think we need to be prepared for this increased prices. Most who talk about minimum wages usually refuse to address this issue. In most businesses, the bulk of their expenditure is staff wages. It's a good reason why whenever the company doesn't have money, they start retrenching workers, its the easiest way to cut their highest cost.

With the introduction of minimum wage, the company also have to compensate for the increase in expenditure, simply put, they either hire less pple or increase prices. The alternative is of coz "streamlining" processes and increasing "productivity", translation, making the same person do more work so they don't need to hire so many pple.

Those of you who thinks the company will just absorb the cost must be living in La La Land. So the trade off is simple. Are U willing to pay more in exchange for minimum wage?

Yes, i am prepared to pay more.

MOst of us who's posting here are white collared staff, being paid a decent salary, which have allowed us to cope with the increased cost of living. And even with that said, we are also struggling.

Can you imagine those who are blue collared workers earning less than us?

 

[iamtalkinglah]

I highlighted the result of the research on the impact of minimum wage, in case someone doesn't want to read the whole thing

I think we need to be prepared for this increased prices. Most who talk about minimum wages usually refuse to address this issue. In most businesses, the bulk of their expenditure is staff wages. It's a good reason why whenever the company doesn't have money, they start retrenching workers, its the easiest way to cut their highest cost.

With the introduction of minimum wage, the company also have to compensate for the increase in expenditure, simply put, they either hire less pple or increase prices. The alternative is of coz "streamlining" processes and increasing "productivity", translation, making the same person do more work so they don't need to hire so many pple.

Those of you who thinks the company will just absorb the cost must be living in La La Land. So the trade off is simple. Are U willing to pay more in exchange for minimum wage?

Get funds from the Gov't for rebates. I read somewhere (can't remember the link now) with a schedule showing what the ministers are earning.
Obama is earning appro $400K while our is earning almost $3m.

It will be a painful experience for a start. Better to start something than do nothing. Let them retrench the PRs and the foreigner first.

If Sg want to send one minister to US/Auz to learn about the minimum wages, would the countries allow?

 

[Rogue Trader]

In most businesses, the bulk of their expenditure is staff wages.

This is dogshit. Every one know the bulk of business cost is rent. Wage is the most controllable component in singapore because we don't have unions and minimum wage. As long as rental costs is left to soar unchecked, employee and customer will pay for it indirectly.

 

[Highfalutin]

This is dogshit. Every one know the bulk of business cost is rent. Wage is the most controllable component in singapore but we don't have unions. As long as rental costs is left to soar unchecked, employee and customer will pay for it indirectly.

Hear! Hear! Thump! Thump!

 

[Char_Azn]

This is dogshit. Every one know the bulk of business cost is rent. Wage is the most controllable component in singapore because we don't have unions and minimum wage. As long as rental costs is left to soar unchecked, employee and customer will pay for it indirectly.

I suggest U go ask your boss which is higher, the rent he pays or staff wages.

I'll give U an example:
Small office space in Town: $10K
5 Staff in Office: 5 * 2K + 13% CPF

U tell me which is higher?

 

[Internet Brigade]

Yes. That's why care must be taken when setting minimum wages.
I suggestion is to group the occupations and set the minimum wages.

Cleaners - $1,000
Sales person - $1,500
etc

This is just PAP excuses. They should do some form of exercise to determine the reasonable minimum wages.
How about learning from Australia who have done well in this system?

I am not afraid of minimum wages. I'm skilled, if my Company don't pay me well, I'll leave and look for another Company.

If foreigners are willing to be paid lesser than the minimum then good, more income for the Gov't and reduce income tax.

Your arguments are only valid with the assumption that employers and governments have perfect information. Without this, minimum wage can only be set and enforced on a very limited level.

 

[Highfalutin]

I suggest U go ask your boss which is higher, the rent he pays or staff wages.

I'll give U an example:
Small office space in Town: $10K
5 Staff in Office: 5 * 2K + 13% CPF

U tell me which is higher?

Erroneous comparison. Factor A x 1 versus Factor B X 5.

 

[Char_Azn]

Yes, i am prepared to pay more.

MOst of us who's posting here are white collared staff, being paid a decent salary, which have allowed us to cope with the increased cost of living. And even with that said, we are also struggling.

Can you imagine those who are blue collared workers earning less than us?

Hold that thought!

Its not that simple. Having minimum wages = wages of low cost workers in crease. However, like I pointed out, Prices will increase

So it looks more like this
Wage increase but Prices also increase

The point now then is, can the wage increase more then offset the price increase. If not, then everything will be back to square one.

 

[Highfalutin]

Poor little Singapore Ah Gong me had always thought ministers' salary and oil price increase, cost of living increased!

 

[Char_Azn]

Erroneous comparison. Factor A x 1 versus Factor B X 5.

Do U usually have 1 worker working at 1 place or multiple worker working at the same place?

Unless the Boss 1 man show then I nothing to say. However most shops need at least 2-3 workers manning the place. Office workers requires an even higher amount of pple to work. Even decent Chicken Rice stall will have 2 pple operating the place. An average food stall with good enough business will see at least 3-4 pple during lunch hours. And we have not factor in the cleaners and dishwashers(which most are shared resource).

Please note that for my office example, I also did not factor in cleaners, etc which would further increase the cost

 

[Highfalutin]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't get you........................

 

[Internet Brigade]

One look at this familiar statement & I need not click on the link.

Only PAPPIE ELITE with Lui*uck*ou avatar can post something like this.

To be fair, his is an oft quoted line & generally any microecons 101 will tell you it is a motherhood statement like 'Mum is female'.

Whether price floor or price ceiling (in this case income), it is always a sin to interfere with Free Demand & Supply forces, purists will tell you.

But is Spore labor mkt especially for entry level positions a 'perfect mkt' ?
Are there overriding social imperatives for intervention ?

In a way, if private sector were to peg their starting pay with civil service or stat boards, that is in a way, a minimum wage equivalent.

I suspect our PAP govt will never implement minimum wage policy because
1. dun want to appear business/employer-unfriendly
2. prefer to compensate low wage earners with Workfare/ 'New-Growth kachang-puteh mini ang-pows or utility offsets (which is basically accounting) to score political points.

Coming back to the original question, no, InternetBrigade's statement doesn't make sense. Minimum means a certain assured bottom better than the current level, & if policy, foreigners' willingness to accept doesn't mean employers can legally employ.

P.S. Scroo, can forget abt advising him to change his nauseating avatar (I have tried), he has poor taste & wants to make a statement of with 'no porn' Lui's mugshot in uniform.

Like i have said, a minimum wage law would make Singaporeans less attractive to hire for the low end jobs because foreigners are able and very willing to take less then that minimum wage. And not to forget the impact it can have on SME and startups.

It is very appealing socially and politically to talk about a minimum wage. But there are two sides to every coin.

Perhaps there will be a day its is studied and deemed beneficial.

 

[Char_Azn]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't get you........................

It's ok. I'm posting out of point and will get singled out for a lecture very soon :p:p

 

[Rogue Trader]

I suggest U go ask your boss which is higher, the rent he pays or staff wages.

I'll give U an example:
Small office space in Town: $10K
5 Staff in Office: 5 * 2K + 13% CPF

U tell me which is higher?

10k a month? how small is your office space in which part of town?

 

[iamtalkinglah]

Your arguments are only valid with the assumption that employers and governments have perfect information. Without this, minimum wage can only be set and enforced on a very limited level.

Doesn't all formulas come from assuming a perfect scenarios and still works well in the real world?
How about learning from Australia who have done well in this system?

 

[Internet Brigade]

I think a min. wage law without a law to ensure jobs go to qualified Sporeans first won't do the job.

Yes, i agree. A minimum wage law is not a gaurantee of employment.

Additionally, if labour costs increase per hour, companies can basically cut those working hours.