Does this make Sense!

[iamtalkinglah]

Like i have said, a minimum wage law would make Singaporeans less attractive to hire for the low end jobs because foreigners are able and very willing to take less then that minimum wage. And not to forget the impact it can have on SME and startups.

It is very appealing socially and politically to talk about a minimum wage. But there are two sides to every coin.

Perhaps there will be a day its is studied and deemed beneficial.

We are going in circles, again I will quote you my "perfect scenario" for your comment in red above.

Just as what you have said, some people (companies) fall through the cracks. This also pushes companies to be more innovative and productive.

Well, same as the theory of importing FTs (and importing and importing and importing of FTs), there are two sides to every coin.

 

[Char_Azn]

10k a month? how small is your office space in which part of town?

CBD area

Raffles Place area - is arguably the most sought after area in Singapore for leasing office space by banks, financial institutes, insurance companies, business centres, and professional services firms. Raffles Place along with its nearby streets (Cecil Street, Robinson Road and Shenton Way) have the highest concentration of Grade A buildings. The area is considered as the Wall Street of Singapore. Nearest MRT station is Raffles Place. Current rental rates for premium buildings here are in the range of S$10 - S$20 psf.

http://www.guidemesingapore.com/office-rental/c308-renting-office-space-singapore-cbd-area.htm

I'm actually blowing up the price of rental for my example. My previous workplace, 1 of the shophouses along stanley street cost less then $8K a month for the WHOLE BUILDING!!!!

 

[eatshitndie]

eat,

we all know the root cause AKA MIW greed, but it can't be dealt with.

How do you roll back cost of living? You can't! then seriously the wage component have to be looked at.

that's like addressing a deep wound by applying bandage on the surface. the effect it will have in healing is only superficial, and after time, some shit will eat at the skin and rear its ugly teeth again.

over here in cal, they increase the minimum wage to counter poverty and illegal hiring, so illegals will fess up and try to convert to become legal immigrants in order to enjoy the higher wage. well... wrong! after tax, they are better off going back home. afterall, minimum wage doesn't even afford a joker a decent standard of living, due to higher cost of living. the day to day workers would rather work multiple odd jobs, earn cash, go under the radar on tax and social security, and still come up cash rich at the end of the month. how else could they support one wife and 4 kids on minimum wage?

due to the availability of (cheap) labor, service companies and small businesses would hire legit (minimum wage) workers for their front counters just to keep the law away while hiding cash workers in backroom operations.

the pappies in sg can counter your minimum wage move by throwing more bodies at job sites and close an eye on enforcement.

you have to strike hard and deep at the weakest chink in the pap armor, and that is their moronic ft policy. they are beginning to see their own folly, and you cannot relent or get distracted by some lame ideas such as minimum wage (or doing away with the death penalty). sg is not ready for that while the stupidity of an unbridled ft policy is not surgically and masterfully exposed.

 

[Internet Brigade]

Doesn't all formulas come from assuming a perfect scenarios and still works well in the real world?
How about learning from Australia who have done well in this system?

Care to share what is so successful about the Australian model? Or did you just quote it because it has a higher minimum wage than the U.s. and thus it is a successful example of policy sustainability?

Remember that Australia has ample minerals and commodities. And not to mention a work force that is willing to do the true blue blue-collar work (of which minimum wage is largely targeted at).

 

[Internet Brigade]

We are going in circles, again I will quote you my "perfect scenario" for your comment in red above.

Just as what you have said, some people (companies) fall through the cracks. This also pushes companies to be more innovative and productive.

Well, same as the theory of importing FTs (and importing and importing and importing of FTs), there are two sides to every coin.

Innovative = labour cost goes up, hire 2 workers instead of 3.
Productive = make the 2 workers work longer hours

Please also take a step back and not be fixated with the formula that minimum wage increases jobs for singaporeans.

 

[Char_Azn]

Innovative = labour cost goes up, hire 2 workers instead of 3.

Doesn't hiring 2 workers instead of 3 = making labor cost go down?

 

[chewed]

Get funds from the Gov't for rebates. I read somewhere (can't remember the link now) with a schedule showing what the ministers are earning.
Obama is earning appro $400K while our is earning almost $3m.

It will be a painful experience for a start. Better to start something than do nothing. Let them retrench the PRs and the foreigner first.

If Sg want to send one minister to US/Auz to learn about the minimum wages, would the countries allow?

exactly. we have to start somewhere

 

[chewed]

Hold that thought!

Its not that simple. Having minimum wages = wages of low cost workers in crease. However, like I pointed out, Prices will increase

So it looks more like this
Wage increase but Prices also increase

The point now then is, can the wage increase more then offset the price increase. If not, then everything will be back to square one.

look at Japan & Hong Kong, a can of coke still < $2.00, something items will have an price increase, some won't. it will even out.

 

[chewed]

that's like addressing a deep wound by applying bandage on the surface. the effect it will have in healing is only superficial, and after time, some shit will eat at the skin and rear its ugly teeth again.

over here in cal, they increase the minimum wage to counter poverty and illegal hiring, so illegals will fess up and try to convert to become legal immigrants in order to enjoy the higher wage. well... wrong! after tax, they are better off going back home. afterall, minimum wage doesn't even afford a joker a decent standard of living, due to higher cost of living. the day to day workers would rather work multiple odd jobs, earn cash, go under the radar on tax and social security, and still come up cash rich at the end of the month. how else could they support one wife and 4 kids on minimum wage?

due to the availability of (cheap) labor, service companies and small businesses would hire legit (minimum wage) workers for their front counters just to keep the law away while hiding cash workers in backroom operations.

the pappies in sg can counter your minimum wage move by throwing more bodies at job sites and close an eye on enforcement.

you have to strike hard and deep at the weakest chink in the pap armor, and that is their moronic ft policy. they are beginning to see their own folly, and you cannot relent or get distracted by some lame ideas such as minimum wage (or doing away with the death penalty). sg is not ready for that while the stupidity of an unbridled ft policy is not surgically and masterfully exposed.

Eat,

minimum wage is not lame. The FT policy is here to stay, even if we get rid of PAP as the ruling party, you think any one taking over will immediately restrict FTs working in SG?

If your reasoning that SG is not ready for minimum wage is bcos of this 3rd world mentality that SG have, then i agree with you.

It has to be a multiple front to solve the problem, instead of simply blaming everything on the FT policy. the PAP simply don't have the poltical will to solve this issue, not to mention the economical impact of restricting foreign workers in SG. Once we opened the door 10 yrs ago, there is no turning back.

 

[iamtalkinglah]

Innovative = labour cost goes up, hire 2 workers instead of 3.
Productive = make the 2 workers work longer hours

Please also take a step back and not be fixated with the formula that minimum wage increases jobs for singaporeans.

Innovative = Companies/peoples are "forced" to come up with innovative or creative goods and services. Including restructuring.

Productive = (Don't be a narrow minded A**) Restructuring to think about how to be more efficient. Do things efficiency. E.g. When you are more efficient, you need 2 worker instead of 3, you pay the each 2 workers at a higher rate. The 3rd worker can find another job and throw out the redundant PR or Foreigner.

CHANGE THE WAY YOU WORK.

By having the minimum wage, this helps the older/poorly qualified blue collar Singaporean workers.

 

[eatshitndie]

Eat,

minimum wage is not lame. The FT policy is here to stay, even if we get rid of PAP as the ruling party, you think any one taking over will immediately restrict FTs working in SG?

If your reasoning that SG is not ready for minimum wage is bcos of this 3rd world mentality that SG have, then i agree with you.

It has to be a multiple front to solve the problem, instead of simply blaming everything on the FT policy. the PAP simply don't have the poltical will to solve this issue, not to mention the economical impact of restricting foreign workers in SG. Once we opened the door 10 yrs ago, there is no turning back.

ok, if you implement minimum wage and the ft policy stays, the pappies (who will still be in power) will simply allow these foreigners to compete legally with citizens for minimum wage jobs, pushing all cost of labor up, including marginally unproductive labor such as dishwasher loading and babysitting. it will attract more losers from the region, and it will be worse than the situation in california.

 

[iamtalkinglah]

Care to share what is so successful about the Australian model? Or did you just quote it because it has a higher minimum wage than the U.s. and thus it is a successful example of policy sustainability?

Remember that Australia has ample minerals and commodities. And not to mention a work force that is willing to do the true blue blue-collar work (of which minimum wage is largely targeted at).

Care to share what is not successful with the Australia model?
Have you heard of this saying? "You can be rich if you drive a cab in Australia."

Remember that Singapore have 3/5 of its population that are PRs and Foreigners. And not to mention, if I am getting $2,500 to be a construction worker, I rather be a construction worker than let the ah neh do it.

Of course, let me reiterate that care must be taken into consideration as to not let the inflation be higher than the increase in minimum wage.

 

[iamtalkinglah]

ok, if you implement minimum wage and the ft policy stays, the pappies (who will still be in power) will simply allow these foreigners to compete legally with citizens for minimum wage jobs, pushing all cost of labor up, including marginally unproductive labor such as dishwasher loading and babysitting. it will attract more losers from the region, and it will be worse than the situation in california.

My view is two-fold;
Reduce FTs and increase minimum wage.
Reduce FTs to stop competition with ALL LEVELS OF SINGAPOREANs.
Increase minimum wage to help lower paid Singaporean workers (e.g. people working as cleaners earning $800/month)

 

[chewed]

My view is two-fold;
Reduce FTs and increase minimum wage.
Reduce FTs to stop competition with ALL LEVELS OF SINGAPOREANs.
Increase minimum wage to help lower paid Singaporean workers (e.g. people working as cleaners earning $800/month)

Exactamundo!

 

[iamtalkinglah]

ok, if you implement minimum wage and the ft policy stays, the pappies (who will still be in power) will simply allow these foreigners to compete legally with citizens for minimum wage jobs, pushing all cost of labor up, including marginally unproductive labor such as dishwasher loading and babysitting. it will attract more losers from the region, and it will be worse than the situation in california.

Please refer to this proposed solution. Please give me your views.

What is the salary of the offer cleaner now? $900?
What is the salary of the dish washer now? $700?
What is the salary of the people who clear your plates at foodcourts? $850?

Then make the minimum wage $1,000 (example la). Do you think it is fair for the Singaporean to earn $800/month when cost of a chicken rice is $3?

Public transport cost $2/trip = $4/day
Breakfast = $2
Lunch = $3
Dinner = $3
Total cost per month = $12/day * 30days = $360
That is almost 50% of gross salary $800. How about rental cost? Utilities cost? CPF?

I think you have mis-understood my suggestion. In fact, the suggestion I have given would make employers hire Singaporeans over foreigners.

EXAMPLE:
Minimum wages for Singaporean = $1,000

Foreigner willing to be paid $800
Then let Levy for foreigners = $220
Net cost for employer = $1,020

If you are an employer you would hire Singaporean or foreigner?
If the employer still want foreigner as PRC perceived to be more hardworking then that employer pay $20 in addition lah.
Gov't earn money then can reduce income tax.

If the Gov't cant commit on the Levy fees then dont. Have a law in place to say that the Levy will determined in the next accounting year when the Gov't received market information on how much a Singaporean earn in the previous year then the Gov't will use this as a basis to price the Levy.

This is just a suggestion, like I said, I am not smart and need the Gov't to work.

 

[chewed]

ok, if you implement minimum wage and the ft policy stays, the pappies (who will still be in power) will simply allow these foreigners to compete legally with citizens for minimum wage jobs, pushing all cost of labor up, including marginally unproductive labor such as dishwasher loading and babysitting. it will attract more losers from the region, and it will be worse than the situation in california.

Eat,

nobody is talking abt implementing minimum wage & letting the FT policy stays as it is. LIke i said, it have to be multiple front, raise the wage & restrict number of "cheap" foreign workers.

what's worse will be restricting the number of foreign workers, yet at the same time still offering to pay peanuts to singaoporeans, with an forever increasing cost of living here.

 

[eatshitndie]

My view is two-fold;
Reduce FTs and increase minimum wage.
Reduce FTs to stop competition with ALL LEVELS OF SINGAPOREANs.
Increase minimum wage to help lower paid Singaporean workers (e.g. people working as cleaners earning $800/month)

yes, like i have said so many times, the root cause is the unbridled flood of unqualified, unskilled, uncouth ft's. if you attack the root cause, plug the fucking hole or bleeding wound; only then would you be able to address the other symptoms of a dying patient. you can't just feed the patient with freshly squeezed sugar cane juice (or best intentions) while he's bleeding to death. it's not just about reduction, it's about stopping the damn hemorrhage. germs are invading by the millions, literally.

 

[cheekenpie]

yes, like i have said so many times, the root cause is the unbridled flood of unqualified, unskilled, uncouth ft's. if you attack the root cause, plug the fucking hole or bleeding wound; only then would you be able to address the other symptoms of a dying patient. you can't just feed the patient with freshly squeezed sugar cane juice (or best intentions) while he's bleeding to death. it's not just about reduction, it's about stopping the damn hemorrhage. germs are invading by the millions, literally.

So the consensus is that bangla also get min wage?

"Got min wage... i grab!"

 

[eatshitndie]

Eat,

nobody is talking abt implementing minimum wage & letting the FT policy stays as it is. LIke i said, it have to be multiple front, raise the wage & restrict number of "cheap" foreign workers.

what's worse will be restricting the number of foreign workers, yet at the same time still offering to pay peanuts to singaoporeans, with an forever increasing cost of living here.

you're finally seeing the picture. you can't just offer one side of the solution by ignoring the other. yes, minimum wage works better with a tough immigration policy. you still need to allow some losers to provide labor on a cash basis, such as dishwasher loading, table busing and babysitting. some fucking jobs don't deserve minimum wage.

 

[iamtalkinglah]

So the consensus is that bangla also get min wage?

"Got min wage... i grab!"

No and please read the above posting. Tired of copying and pasting so many times leh