Chee, SDP and the letters!

[Goh Meng Seng]

So, Mr M S Goh, does the NSP endorse or condemn what the SDP has done?

You mean you don't understand what I say just now?

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Tan Kim Kim]

Sending a goon squad to arrest political adversaries at 4.30 am in the morning and locking them up for two decades without trial can hardly be described as a "political" victory. It's pretty much unadulterated thuggery in my books. The old fart's "knuckle dusters" comment was hardly a figure of speech. He used gang warfare that the Sicilian Mafia would be proud of.

My definition of a "political victory" is where political opponents go head to head in a campaign to win over the electorate. Lee's heavyweight political opponents never got that opportunity.

Who care if lky arrested his opponent at 4.30 in the morning, he can have all of them kill if he want, sinkies will still grateful to lky for providing a secure and business friendly plc that bring us prosperity

 

[silverfox@]

So the following letters from PM Lee to JBJ's sons is gracious?

Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong wrote a condolence letter on the demise of JBJ, addressed to JBJ’s sons Kenneth and Philip Jeyaretnam.

PM Lee wrote that JBJ “used to engage in heated debates” in Parliament probably because “he and the PAP never saw eye to eye on any major political issue and he sought by all means to demolish the PAP and our system of government“.

PM Lee said that this “helped neither to build up a constructive opposition nor our Parliamentary tradition“.

Please read and re-read those UNDERLINED "consolation".

No one is insinuating that LHL's letter is gracious. But what we are saying here is CSJ's letter lacks of humanity.

If you think that person is inhumane, you do not have to apply inhumane methods to him just because you hate him.

Hope you can understand what I meant and "i mean no ill will" :o

 

[silverfox@]

For me, Karma will find its way to go round. What you do unto others, others will do unto you.

Goh Meng Seng

Karma will find its way. Even to those who deem themselves as taking revenge. It's a karma cycle.

 

[Leongsam]

Who care if lky arrested his opponent at 4.30 in the morning, he can have all of them kill if he want, sinkies will still grateful to lky for providing a secure and business friendly plc that bring us prosperity

The issue is not about Singapore's prosperity. The discussion is about whether or not LKY's victories can be described as "political".

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

No one is insinuating that LHL's letter is gracious. But what we are saying here is CSJ's letter lacks of humanity.

If you think that person is inhumane, you do not have to apply inhumane methods to him just because you hate him.

Hope you can understand what I meant and "i mean no ill will" :o

Silverfox,

Politically, it is bad for CSJ to write that. But put it this way, if both of them are not politicians or public figures, would you still feel that the one being bullied all his life by his opponent is wrong to mock at his lifelong enemy when he is mourning? Think through carefully.

For example, if your enemy who have been harassing you with all sorts of inhuman tactics for your whole life suddenly end up with some misfortune, should I scold you inhuman if you were to mock at him for his misfortune?

To me, it is understandable for people who have suffered badly to vent their cynicism against their most hated persons during their misfortune. Rightfully or wrongfully, that is not for us to judge because it is between the two of them. But politically, that may not be the wise thing to do.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Tan Kim Kim]

The issue is not about Singapore's prosperity. The discussion is about whether or not LKY's victories can be described as "political".

if he have not done that, SBF won't exist in the 1st place

 

[Tan Kim Kim]

Karma will find its way. Even to those who deem themselves as taking revenge. It's a karma cycle.

Karma only applies to Buddhist like GMS who is a believer.

 

[silverfox@]

Silverfox,

Politically, it is bad for CSJ to write that. But put it this way, if both of them are not politicians or public figures, would you still feel that the one being bullied all his life by his opponent is wrong to mock at his lifelong enemy when he is mourning? Think through carefully.


Goh Meng Seng

Politically or non politically,
Whatever it is, there is a time for people to grieve and there is a time for people to stamp their political points. And it is definitely a wrong time to raise all these issues on the pretext of a condolence letter.

CSJ already sent 1st one earlier which had no ill-intent. But the 2nd one is a bit too much.

I don't think you will do the same like he did. It's bad timing. You will choose to raise your argument on another time, another day, another subject. Whether we are politicians or not politicians. If politics is all about scoring points, then I would say CSJ lost most of his points in that letter.

Has political warfare made politicians become less gracious to each other? Maybe to CSJ, he could have said, "I would have written much worst than this if not for pulling my punches" but the whole thing is to not have it started at all.

 

[silverfox@]

Karma only applies to Buddhist like GMS who is a believer.

Karma happens beyond religion. I am not a Buddhist but I know what goes around comes around.

 

[Tan Kim Kim]

Karma happens beyond religion. I am not a Buddhist but I know what goes around comes around.

ok LKY have a perfect marriage, perfect career, perfect children and grandchildren, almost perfect health (consider his age at 87), perfect academic in sch, perfect salary, perfect politicians, a perfect leader in the eyes of many foreigner all over the world, a perfect life..He must have do many good things in his past and present life? Y GMS keep saying LKY have bad karmic reaction?

 

[Ramseth]

Y GMS keep saying LKY have bad karmic reaction?

GMS understands nothing about Buddhism in essence. No Buddhist monk or true Buddhist would say to or about anyone, however evil or wrongful, that karma or retribution is a-coming to them, it's just a matter of time.

 

[myfoot123]

Politically or non politically,
Whatever it is, there is a time for people to grieve and there is a time for people to stamp their political points. And it is definitely a wrong time to raise all these issues on the pretext of a condolence letter.
.

Ai Yo Yo!!!!! you better not say any further lar!!! Talking about scoring political points over the dead and stuff like that, all other people pale in comparison to PAP.

Can you still remember Slipper Man incident? He is innocent and yet ST, certainly under PAP instruction, blow the news out of proportion to score political points and put opposition parties in bad light. When given the chance they kept bringing him into the picture, as opposition slipper man, even though he is not the murderer and someone in his family has died. It is already pity enough and yet who is inhuman towards him.

 

[scroobal]

Bro, have to disagree. Most Singaporeans including the young know that this govt has a dark history. The older wants know much in detail. The young are more upset with the controls that do no sync with wider world.

All of them however know that certain basic rules such as funerals and bereavements are not the time and place. Chee and SDP have widely made themselves known politically and what they brought are certainly not true.

When I screwed the fishing village idiots and ignoramus, it was in the context that they got their facts wrong, and ended hero worshipping. True to their colour, they dodged the questions and evaded the issue.

When Chee is not untrue but not appropriate. Neither is it new nor sensational.

If the letter is circulated widely, it will however be a revelation for many that MM Lee ordered the detention/repression of his political opponents.

Given SDP's positioning and CSJ's own experience, SDP stands to gain the most from this issue.

If you see things in this political light, then you will understand that the letter is simply a first step of a wider strategy against the PAP.

 

[scroobal]

Great stuff.

Dear Arun

Repression ? The collective memory of my parents who lived through the communist insurgency or who were students then knew the communist and their supporters sympathizers were no saints.

Most of us, heck even PAP ministers can see the difference between Vincent Cheng and hard core communist from the sixties. The more you lump cases together , the more you conflate in order to confuse , the more irritated voters get.

I as a voter do not care about LKY's legacy or what he did past tense, I only care for what his successors can do for me in the present. In the same vein I do not care about what LKY did to the communist, operation spectrum, Dr Chee, Dr Chee's dog or his sister. I only care abt what he can deliver for me today and tomorrow.

If he is going to campaign ard the theme of PAP repression etc etc etc , then he has lost the plot just as I was praising the SDP for excellent logistics and media management. Voters are selfish PERIOD.


Locke

 

[scroobal]

Excellent point. This is the only thing the PAP and the old man can never ever claim - the moral highground. This is also the very reason that most PAP will not reveal their membership to avoid the humiliation and the association. I have met spouses and family members of PAP members telling me to avoid PAP matters and thereby either hinting or directly telling me that the man is a member and they want to avoid any unpleasantness.

The PAP for all intents and purposes is a tyrannical regime but have one advantage - they batted for capitalism and it is truly a centrally economy who have no qualms of putting people behind bars without trial or ruining them for good.

With these letters, Chee Soon Juan and SDP just lost the only thing that they have which the PAP does not have: the moral high ground.

 

[scroobal]

I understand where you are PAPsmearer are coming from and I never held you guys back. I know of elderly singaporeans who will never forgive the Japanese for the atrocities done in their time. They are never at peace because they seen the horror.

I probably revealed more then anyone else about this seemingly incorruptible but who are no different to many tinpot regimes but this one has a unusual legacy.

But what Chee did as a member of the opposition is downright silly and a major political blunder.

SIOW ah YOU! The old bastard was a crook and a traitor during the Japanese occupation! He ecen said those were the best years of his life! :oIo:

 

[scroobal]

Have to disagree. Singaporean know exactly what the PAP has done or is capable of. Only a blind few have their history wrong. There is no need for Chee to reveal anything. Notice he spends more time addressing the foreign press than the locals.

These are also not bread and butter issues.

If you Singaporeans are more puzzled why Chee and SDP are more concerned with the Burmese. His affront of GCT in the US also fell flat and made him look like a clown. The claim that he is a paid PAP agent is running neck and neck with Harbans and he is doing no favours in dispelling that. Now you know why no opposition party is keen to work with them. Now you know why no adult is prepared to join them. Its a lose cannon, with no roadmap, no ideas and no moral compass and they claim to preach human rights.

Singaporeans by and large do not walk on a moral ground. They are bread and butter issues first and foremost and secondly they would like to be seen as nice people.

CSJ is making at least two generations of Singaporeans know of the dirty deeds of LKY, the gecko and the PAP. At least two generations of Singaporeans do not know a lot about Singapore as they have been imbued with fascist propaganda from the PAP.

YOu may not agree with the letter or its timing but I am sure that you agree with its contents. No?

 

[scroobal]

Great points bro. Especially separating the issues. That will certainly work.

As a sec-gen of an opposition party, he should have separated what he wanted to said into 2 letters. 1 purely a letter of condolence and the other, how people were detained for years by LKY.

But like what I said earlier he is a great opportunist. The purpose of the letter is not to console (definitely not), but taking the opportunity. While LKY and his family are grieving, he wants to hurt them when they are saddest by bringing out all the "crimes" which LKY has done over numerous people over the years and illlustrate that while he has lost his loved one, many others because of him has lost their loved ones as well. And the most hypocritical part is "I mean no ill will".

It's like stabbing someone and then said, I don't mean it you know.

Of course, by separating what he wanted to said into 2 letters would not have this effect without hurting people at their saddest. CSJ achieved his revenge, not to bring out all these points, but for instant gratification. I pity those he brought into the contents of this very "condolence letter". They are the most innocent.

 

[scroobal]

Great stuff bro. I now concede on the clarification that you sought with my position with Chee. See your point now and accept it - a miracle indeed.

There are 2 major issues with the letters.
Firstly, the timing. Secondly, the mixing of the content - mixing the condolencences with LKY's past actions particularly the detainees. Even if there was an intention to express condolences, it has been totally negated by the latter part, even if the accuracy is not disputed.

Could he not have written about the latter part on other occasions, perhaps on the occasion of the national day of the last 10 years?

Sometime ago, we were just discussing whether CSJ has already lost the voters or whether he can make a serious comeback as an MP who could help the people and the country, if he listened and did the right things. He probably needs a miracle now.