Association of Muslim Professionals finally wake up and take their PAP partner.

[longbow]

"Victor writes the history" is my poor attempt at saying that who is in power call the shots. Fact is that Chinese control the power in Singapore. Does not matter about the history.

Why should I leave? I spent 2.5 years of my life in the army. Neither should you.

I said one should leave if they cannot adapt to Singapore's multi racial society. In Singapore society, the Chinese are the majority and they hold all the power that is just life.

For Chinese living in Malaysia, where majority is Malay, benefits are skewed towards the Malays and that is life there. Many Chinese choose to stay and they have become very prosperous. But there are also many that have moved to Singapore.

In short, just face reality and stop dreaming of the past, adapt and play the hand that you have.

You must be delusional to suggest that I emigrate from my own land!!!

The problem with your "victor write history" is that it is based on the delusional assumption that the Chinese have fought a war, have already won the war, that the war is over and that the victorious Chinese can now claim ownership of our land.

Think Palestine.

And you can save me your patronizing Chinese attitude.

Now please pack up and leave.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Very good! Clap clap!! One of your more sane postings. For people talking about geography and maps, isn't it obvious that Sabah, Sarawak and Brunei should belong Indonesia, or at least Kalimantan? Less obvious but if one pays careful attention to the map, Yala, Pattani and Narathiwat are in Malaya, not Thailand, but they're Thai provinces, not Malay states.

It is rather strange proclamation that this land belongs to which race. The vast land in China doesn't belong to the Chinese, the Hans alone. It has many other races sharing those land.

I was told by some Malay scholars, the origin of Malays comes from the South-Western part of present China, mainly Xinjiang. For some reasons, they migrated down south and even to Philippines. There are Malays residing in Thailand, Cambodia, Laos etc... as well, although they don't share the same religion.

In short, strictly speaking, even the Malays are migrants from the North. The original people on these lands in present Malaysia, Sarawak and Singapore are the Ibans.

Anyway, it is really irrelevant to talk about all these with people who don't really know their own history. The Ibans should ask all of us to leave this land if his twisted logic is to be taken seriously.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[kingrant]

Your sources seemed to be challenged now.

Acc to wikipedia,

"the theories .....could be rendered false and in need of revision due to new scientific evidence presented by HUGO (Human Genome Organization) through genetic studies of the Asian races that points to a single Asian migration from South East Asia travelling northwards and slowly populating East Asia instead of the other way around which is popularly depicted.<SUP id=cite_ref-12 class=reference>[13]</SUP>
The proto Malays are believed to be seafarers knowledgeable in oceanography and possessing agricultural skills. They moved around from island to island in great distances between New Zealand and Madagascar, and they served as navigation guides, crew and labour to Indian, Arab, Persian and Chinese traders for nearly 2000 years. Over the years they settled at various places and adopted various cultures and religions."

Also, Islam came to the Malays only around the 14th century, brought by Arab traders from the ME. Malays were originally believers in animism - spirits reside in animals, trees, birds (pontianak, banana tree spirit). It was only during the Malaccan sultanate that Islam took hold and thrived. From then on, if you are born a Malay, you are automatically a Muslim. The Sunni version of Islam.

But you are right. No use saying who was here first, because it depends on how far back you want to go. In fact, we were all Africans!!!

I was told by some Malay scholars, the origin of Malays comes from the South-Western part of present China, mainly Xinjiang. For some reasons, they migrated down south and even to Philippines. There are Malays residing in Thailand, Cambodia, Laos etc... as well, although they don't share the same religion.

In short, strictly speaking, even the Malays are migrants from the North. The original people on these lands in present Malaysia, Sarawak and Singapore are the Ibans.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Whether the Malays are the race migrating from the South or the North, they are not the indigenous people of this land and it is really silly to start this talk about who come here first and such.

From the academic point of view, the Malays and Javanese shared the same staple food, rice with the Chinese. I do not know whether the indigenous people in New Zealanders and Madagascar take rice as their staple food or not but there are similarities in the cultural belief systems between some tribes in China, the Miao and Li tribes, in comparison with the Malays and Javanese. Eg. the "black magic" used by the bomoths is suspected to have its origins from Xinjiang in China. There are quite detailed mention of such "black magic" in Chinese historical records.

Goh Meng Seng

Your sources seemed to be challenged now.

Acc to wikipedia,

"the theories .....could be rendered false and in need of revision due to new scientific evidence presented by HUGO (Human Genome Organization) through genetic studies of the Asian races that points to a single Asian migration from South East Asia travelling northwards and slowly populating East Asia instead of the other way around which is popularly depicted.<SUP id=cite_ref-12 class=reference>[13]</SUP>
The proto Malays are believed to be seafarers knowledgeable in oceanography and possessing agricultural skills. They moved around from island to island in great distances between New Zealand and Madagascar, and they served as navigation guides, crew and labour to Indian, Arab, Persian and Chinese traders for nearly 2000 years. Over the years they settled at various places and adopted various cultures and religions."

Also, Islam came to the Malays only around the 14th century, brought by Arab traders from the ME. Malays were originally believers in animism - spirits reside in animals, trees, birds (pontianak, banana tree spirit). It was only during the Malaccan sultanate that Islam took hold and thrived. From then on, if you are born a Malay, you are automatically a Muslim. The Sunni version of Islam.

But you are right. No use saying who was here first, because it depends on how far back you want to go. In fact, we were all Africans!!!

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

Anyway, it is really irrelevant to talk about all these with people who don't really know their own history. The Ibans should ask all of us to leave this land if his twisted logic is to be taken seriously.

Goh Meng Seng

The original ppl are the orang asli. I'm not sure whom the ibans are without googling. Anyway the pt is the malays aren't the original ppl of this land. If you change the subject and ask them why won't they leave this land since it belongs to the orang asli for eg somehow they have some sort of BS justified excuse as to why it's okay for them to stay.

In any case this land wasn't even conquered from them. If you read the history of sg you'll know how it came about.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

I told you slit eyes. You believe too much of this "Hua Ren Hua Yi" rubbish that you can't comprehend simple English.

I referred to the past and present. That Tanah Melayu is our ancestral land and that of our forefathers.

I used the present tense as well, that this Tanah Melayu is our land.

To make it crystal clear to you, I will now use the future tense as well. That Tanah Melayu will forever be my land and the land of my people from now to eternity.

Now pack up and leave. "Huaren Huayi" and "Chang Huayi" SAP slit and slant eyed Chinks like you are no longer welcomed to live in our land.

You don't understand english do you? Whom ever said this country isn't your "land"?

Anyway it just so happens to be my land.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

That's where you are wrong, you slit eyed chink. If you are indeed right, then slit and slant eyed chinks like you will not be incessantly whinging about "new citizens", PRs and foreigners or telling them to go back to India, the Philippines or to wherever they come from.

Now pack up and leave. You don't belong in our Tanah Melayu.

Omg you actually shot yourself in the foot. How dumb can you be. Your logic is if this was our land we would not be whining. Well then look at you. Aren't you whining here again and again. Following your own logic this isn't your land then.

 

[longbow]

Firstly Malays were seafarers (Polynesia) that could be found from Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia to Philippines and even Hawaii. If you look at Malay language there are lots of similarities with Tagalog. Note that Malays were not Muslims until the Arabs brought along Islam.

Your sources seemed to be challenged now.

Acc to wikipedia,

"the theories .....could be rendered false and in need of revision due to new scientific evidence presented by HUGO (Human Genome Organization) through genetic studies of the Asian races that points to a single Asian migration from South East Asia travelling northwards and slowly populating East Asia instead of the other way around which is popularly depicted.<SUP id=cite_ref-12 class=reference>[13]</SUP>
The proto Malays are believed to be seafarers knowledgeable in oceanography and possessing agricultural skills. They moved around from island to island in great distances between New Zealand and Madagascar, and they served as navigation guides, crew and labour to Indian, Arab, Persian and Chinese traders for nearly 2000 years. Over the years they settled at various places and adopted various cultures and religions."

Also, Islam came to the Malays only around the 14th century, brought by Arab traders from the ME. Malays were originally believers in animism - spirits reside in animals, trees, birds (pontianak, banana tree spirit). It was only during the Malaccan sultanate that Islam took hold and thrived. From then on, if you are born a Malay, you are automatically a Muslim. The Sunni version of Islam.

But you are right. No use saying who was here first, because it depends on how far back you want to go. In fact, we were all Africans!!!

 

[Loofydralb]

Your sources seemed to be challenged now.

Acc to wikipedia,

"the theories .....could be rendered false and in need of revision due to new scientific evidence presented by HUGO (Human Genome Organization) through genetic studies of the Asian races that points to a single Asian migration from South East Asia travelling northwards and slowly populating East Asia instead of the other way around which is popularly depicted.<SUP id=cite_ref-12 class=reference>[13]</SUP>
The proto Malays are believed to be seafarers knowledgeable in oceanography and possessing agricultural skills. They moved around from island to island in great distances between New Zealand and Madagascar, and they served as navigation guides, crew and labour to Indian, Arab, Persian and Chinese traders for nearly 2000 years. Over the years they settled at various places and adopted various cultures and religions."

In fact, we were all Africans!!!

Muahahahahaha

This is hilarious! I'd like to see those racist tie themselves into a knot trying to undo this one!!!

The Chinese came from Malay balls!!!! Farrrrnie!!

Hey Jah, come kowtow and pay respect to your ancestors, the Malays!!!

 

[Ramseth]

Taiwan's natives are not ethnic Han Chinese, though the terrority has always been considered part of China since ancient dynasties, just like some south-west and north-west provinces where natives aren't Han Chinese but their lands form part of China. Han Chinese moved over to settle in Taiwan just like Scottish moving to England.

Singapore was a deserted island without even any Orang Asli. The Malay Orang Laut from east Johor sailed south and started the first settlements here, i.e. fishing villages. That's why Malays in Singapore traditionally lived along the east coast from Changi to the south coast along Beach Road. They still considered themselves Johoreans and subjects of the Sultan of Johore. A palace was built for the Sultan here to stake the claim. Of course the Sultan didn't live here; he sent one of his princes as representative. Go along Beach Road today and you'll find another road called Jalan Sultan. That's exactly what it means, the road of the Sultan. The old palace is still here. Go one lane behind called Aliwal Lane and walk along it until you reach Aliwal Gate. That's the gate to the palace. It's not deserted. Some are still living in there. The palace compound is still under the sovereignty of the Johor Sultanate.

How did it turned out this way? Because the Johor Sultanate sold Singapore to Sir Stamford Raffles, all of it including the smaller offshore islands, except retaining the palatial compound as perpetual concession since some of the royal relatives got used to living here and like living here. This is not the same as Qing Dynasty conceding 150-year lease of HK to Britain. It's an outright sale of all rights and claims. In fact soon later, the Johor Sultanate and the others subordinated entire states and all states of Peninsula Malaya to Britain, but that's another story for another topic.

There you have it. There were no natives to begin with. First come first served, applied to the Malays, true, but once sold no return also applied. This is no Malay land. This land to belongs to all of us born and bred here, regardless of race or how our respective ancestors ended up here. Nobody can tell anybody to pack up and go.

 

[scroobal]

Let get simplistic. For the Chinese as a race, they homeland has to be China. They cannot claim that it US, UK or Singapore. For the Indians, it India. For the Malays, if it is not Malaysia, I have no idea what then.

GMS I am surprised that you are getting into an argument that is not politically or factually right. The Malays are descendents of proto Malays and their territory stretches as far oceania. The colour of their skin should give you a clue if they or you are actuall habitants of this land.

I am sure you realise that Ibans and Orang Asli are closely related to the Malays and not the Chinese.

We should not be talking about stuff like this. We should be talking about how to live harmoniusly and acting like a nation state.

 

[Dreamer1]

Let get simplistic. For the Chinese as a race, they homeland has to be China. They cannot claim that it US, UK or Singapore. For the Indians, it India. For the Malays, if it is not Malaysia, I have no idea what then.

GMS I am surprised that you are getting into an argument that is not politically or factually right. The Malays are descendents of proto Malays and their territory stretches as far oceania. The colour of their skin should give you a clue if they or you are actuall habitants of this land.

I am sure you realise that Ibans and Orang Asli are closely related to the Malays and not the Chinese.

We should not be talking about stuff like this. We should be talking about how to live harmoniusly and acting like a nation state.

GMS is at it again,one really wonders whether he knows what is a "war"?Typically he likes to talk like a MENTOR-meaning one who has made it.

Has GMS made it already,I think he has not even started!

Anyway,he & his party would get my vote.Sad that as a Spore citizen,I have to cast my vote for such an idiot,but it is my choice of course,circumstances prevail.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Let get simplistic. For the Chinese as a race, they homeland has to be China. They cannot claim that it US, UK or Singapore. For the Indians, it India. For the Malays, if it is not Malaysia, I have no idea what then.

We should not be talking about stuff like this. We should be talking about how to live harmoniusly and acting like a nation state.

I do not want to talk about topics like this one because it will go on into what belongs to who and such. I am simply stating the simple fact that such talk is really illogical.

We must settle this chauvinist talk about whose land this belongs to before we can settle on living harmoniously.

It may occur to modern people that Malays definitely belongs to Malaysia or Malay Peninsular and start to claim that all land belongs to them, asking others to go back home etc etc. But if we all go down to lineage, this may not be so. I would only say that this land belongs to the dinosaurs which extinct millions or billions of years ago.

Skin colour means little to me. Even in China, not all skins are yellow. But so what? Earth belongs to every human beings because we are born here, we have the right of abode here.

Many wars are waged just because of this silly arbitrary claim of who come first and this land should belong to who. Even if it is just a small rocky island with nothing on it. Of course, when people find oil below the sea, they will be more eager to stage that claim.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Malays Must Vote PAP!]

"Victor writes the history" is my poor attempt at saying that who is in power call the shots. Fact is that Chinese control the power in Singapore. Does not matter about the history.

The Chinese have been allowed to control power simply because they now believe they own our land. We intend to and, no matter how long it takes, put a stop to it.

Why should I leave? I spent 2.5 years of my life in the army. Neither should you.I said one should leave if they cannot adapt to Singapore's multi racial society. In Singapore society, the Chinese are the majority and they hold all the power that is just life.

The 2.5 years you spent has nothing to do with me or my people. It has everything to do with you Chinese trying to perpetuate your control over our land.

You seriously believe we are going to gun down our Malay brothers across the crossway to prove our worth and loyalty to the chang huayi Chinese so that they can continue to tell us how we should dress, how we should practice our religion, customs and culture and so that they can continue to behave like overlords in our land and treat us like serfs?

There was a time in the past when we would have given our lives to defend each and every Chinese living in our Tanah Melayu from Malays of other nationalities. But not anymore. This is since the Chinese have made clear their intentions of sinicising our land which we have allowed to turn multi-racial but which they are now treating as a Mandarin speaking province of China.

The Chinese hold on power is tenuous at best and will be temporary.

For Chinese living in Malaysia, where majority is Malay, benefits are skewed towards the Malays and that is life there. Many Chinese choose to stay and they have become very prosperous. But there are also many that have moved to Singapore.

In short, just face reality and stop dreaming of the past, adapt and play the hand that you have.

We are not dreaming of the past. We are thinking of the future.

It is the Chinese who should stop dreaming that they are now owners of our land because they think they have been successful in usurping our land. That is and will be a severe miscalculation on their part.

 

[borom]

I see in this continuing debate, a microcosm of our sad plight.

While the locals are busy arguing and fighting among themselves, the foreigners have come in and taken away their jobs, properties and their children places in educational institutions.

Locals should unite to face the common problem-the invasion by poor quality foreigners that is making the country going backwards.

 

[Malays Must Vote PAP!]

Whether the Malays are the race migrating from the South or the North, they are not the indigenous people of this land

You actually hope to be elected as an MP without even knowing that the Constitution recognises the Malays as the indigenous people of this land?

What did they teach you in your chauvinistic SAP school? That the Chinese are the indigenous people of this land?

and it is really silly to start this talk about who come here first and such.
Goh Meng Seng

Don't be hypocritical and talk about "silly".

The premise that you have the right to determine who comes here as PRs or the numbers of foreigners from India, China, etc that should be allowed in is based on your belief that you were here first before this new wave of immigrants. Hence, you believe you have earned that right to determine what the numbers should be.

 

[RoyMcFarland]

I have worked for many years and I disagree that this is due to Speak Mandarin Campaign.
If I would like to hazard a guess, maybe they are the PRC FTs who naturally is more conversant in Mandarin.

Just to add my personal experience:
My Chinese friends and colleagues have never taken note of the Speak mandrain campaign to purposely speak mandarin to each other. The only occasions that we switched to Mandarin is to speak on sensitive issues which we don't want the other parties (Indians, English, German, Dutch, etc....) to understand.
My children has never spoken in Mandarin with me and their mother as everyday language.

You my friend are an exception to the rule... By the way, no PRCs or FTs at my workplace.

 

[Malays Must Vote PAP!]

There you have it. There were no natives to begin with. First come first served, applied to the Malays, true, but once sold no return also applied. This is no Malay land. This land to belongs to all of us born and bred here, regardless of race or how our respective ancestors ended up here. Nobody can tell anybody to pack up and go.

You are repeating and clinging on a to a stale argument that has already been addressed. That is why you are seeing "new" arguments from the Chinese, from serving NS, to being the majority, etc.

I repeat. European colonialism took place either through the barrel of a gun or through wads of cash or through forced agreements. When British colonialism ended, the colonised land were returned to the "natives". In India, the land were returned to the Indian owners. In Hongkong, it was returned to the Chinese owners. Here, it was returned to the Malay owners.

I have also stated this before. If not for the fact that you Chinese are now treating our land as though you own it and as though it is a Mandarin speaking province of China, we would have continued to welcome you as our brothers and sisters and as co-owners of our land instead of asking you to pack up and leave and return to where you belong, i.e. China.

 

[Dreamer1]

You my friend are an exception to the rule... By the way, no PRCs or FTs at my workplace.

I do agree with you that MM LKY's brain child "Speak mandarin campaign"has worked out the exact opposite effect from what he intended.

I think I can comment on this as a senior Chinese helicopter in this forum as I spent fully 12 years in the traditional Chinese schools,speaking mandarin as first language & scored the top distinction in the Chinese language paper in one of the first GCE'O" levels exam,switch over fr 3-3 to 4-2 syatem engineered by MM LKY.

MM LKY had intended the "speak Mandarin campaign" as he was bent on eliminating all dialects from the local language scheme of things around that time,we all know how he is,single minded focus on his objective.

I cant say whether he suceeded in his vision of uniting the Chinese in their speaking,but it is clear for all to see the unintended results,polarisarion of the different races in this :"NOY YET NATION"with the minority races having the feeling of discrimation.

It is not only the PAP,but the rise of China did manage to strengthen this feeling,encouraging many Chinese Ah Bens & Ah Lians to feel proud and very often ignore the feelings of fellow citizens.

I can spek on this as my wife is not of Chinese race,it is personal feeling.

 

[scroobal]

The colour of skin in anthropology and in physiology is a product of the environment. That is empirical. God did not paint any of us. The long and short of it is quite simple. The Malays have a claim on this island as native and both you and I are not. This is an argument no politician of non-malay stock will go into unless he is playing to the non-malay gallery and therefore is clearly playing the race card.

The ideal approach is to talk about nationhood and to develop a Singapore psyche. That means to ensure that all 4 main races are given equal rights and attention. The Malays have a constitutional position that is above all others in recognition of their native status, something we should all accept gracefully.

The PAP has played the race card with SAP schools. We know that for fact. You and I cannot give a valid reason why SAP schools exist but to hold on to the language. The language interestingly is not the mother tongue of the Chinese majority but something that put the old man in equal terms with his political opponents. If mother tongue is so important, then there should have been SAP Malay, Indian and Eurasian schools. That is not the case. Look at River Valley School. It now is in old St Andrews with running track and all plus some lecture style setting. This is political.

You are product of SAP school and will never know the feeling of integration and attending school with those of other races on a daily basis. I think you will also realise that well educated parents will always send their kids to RI and missionary schools rather than SAP schools. Do you know why? A well rounded education means opening one's eyes and seeing the world. SAP in all shape and form is a political tool. It is also unfair to other non Chinese Singaporeans. Old Man closed Sang Nila Utama Malay school but chose build SAP school.

Please do think that I there would like to see the Malays or the Indians to be given special privileges. Its about time the Malays stopped whinging and whining and start carrying their own weight in society. Instead we have a clown here whose limited intellect can only allow him one argument - that he owns the land and we should all get out and that seems to be his only argument.

The only leeway that I want to see is affirmative action where the races are seen across work and other social spectrum. In our first 30 years of our existence, I saw a sprinkling of Indians and Eurasians holding senior positions in Govt right up to Perm Sec and they were all capable. You also see it in the professions such as medicine, law and accountancy. Now all you see is a sea of Chinese. So what happened. Suddenly the Indians and Eurasians became lazy, stupid or progressive turned dumb. The situation became so bad that in 2007, they went out of the Admin service to find a non-chinese Perm Sec.

Some of us have now realised that we now in a similar boat when the decision was made to allow non-citizens admission to Admin Service in 1991. With the presence of Ah Tiongs and Ah Nehs our backs are now against the wall. See the complaints from Singapore Chinese about PRC scholars, bond skipping, behaviour in the workplace. Note when the NTU lecturer ended up in hospital, it was PRC students that was constantly visiting him to suck up to him.

Get the picture. You have to make up your mind. You either aspire a Singapore for Singaporeans or protect Mandarin which is not your mother tongue but your gateway to protecting the Chinese culture in a foreign land. You can't have both.

=Goh Meng Seng;665463

Skin colour means little to me. Even in China, not all skins are yellow. But so what? Earth belongs to every human beings because we are born here, we have the right of abode here.