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An eye witness view of Aware EGM..some shocking details

SneeringTree

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One needs to be a Christian who pursues the Christian way of life to understand what you don't. Trying to walk with Jesus helps.

Would Jesus have done what Josie did? I think the answer is a clear "No". Would Jesus have falsely accused of someone without proof like what Thio Su Mien accused Aware of encouraging girls to experiment lesbian sex? I think the answer is "No".

Would Jesus have used homosexuals as a convenient scapegoat to impose moral superiority? The answer is "NO".

If you try to walk with Jesus, you would understand what empathy, sacrifice, love and kindliness are.
 

scroobal

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Why did Pastor Hong apologise?

I disagree with you. It was the media who played the religious card trying to give Christianity a bad. I blame the press for breaking the religious harmony the govt had tried so hard to build. They are the guilty ones.
 

VIBGYOR

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Would Jesus have done what Josie did? I think the answer is a clear "No". Would Jesus have falsely accused of someone without proof like what Thio Su Mien accused Aware of encouraging girls to experiment lesbian sex? I think the answer is "No".

When God wants to do something, I dun think you want to be hanging around...
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

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ST's latest report 4/5 clearly demonstrates that Dr Thio was the puppet master (and a damn bloody liar for claiming that the power grab was not "covert") behind this abysmal diabolical caper (perhaps with further indirect strings being pulled by the forked tongue pastor hong as spirtual 'mentor' and maybe even josie's hubby Dr Alan Chin)...

"Unfortunately, I cannot surface but shall be assisting in the background"

"I was disturbed by what Aware was doing and felt that I had to do my part, but I didn't want to front it. If not, we would not have the advantage"


I think ST's Sumiko Tan has really got a handle on this misguided motley bunch from COOS when she wrote in her interview with josie in the sunday times 3/5...

"...the 48 year old (Josie) possess the beatific calm of someone who is convinced she is right and that she is doing the right thing..."

Yes I totally agree with u. Darth Thio acts n behaves as though she was the aggrieved one, the one whose good intentions were misunderstood, misinterpretated, n unappreciated.

Instead of realising her errors, she offended more Singaporean women by calling them scary n hooligans. Shows she is not only deluding herself by believing that god wants her to carry out these activities, she is really OUT OF TOUCH with reality.

This puppet master's actions however is nothing new. Xtian history will show u that many women also thought that god has spoken to them n wanted them to carry out certain actions. Most ended up getting BBQed!

Her delusion has also destroyed the lives of these 6 women who will be eternally remembered n blamed for this fiasco.

Feminist Mentor my foot.....Freaking Mad, more appropraite.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

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I don't think they are necessarily "opposed" on the issue of homos...it is on the critical issue of religion v secular public space:wink:
Dear Lock

The remarkable thing I read was that there were xtians there who really opposed other xtians. Irene Ang was mentioned but this raises more questions. Bible is damn clearcut about homosexuality n sodomy, yet why are xtians still spilt on this issue? These acts n lifestyles are to be condemned, no compromise.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

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Process, pluralism, protection
Straits Times, 04 May 2009
ST link

By Janadas Devan, Review Editor

‘THE Aware Saga’ has come to an end. What lessons does the episode hold for civil society? There are undoubtedly many, but here is a preliminary set of what I believe are the chief lessons:

# Lesson No. 1: Ends and means

The group that captured Aware on March 28 presented themselves as exceedingly moral beings. The group’s inspirator extraordinaire Thio Su Mien - lawyer, self-styled ‘feminist mentor’ and, by the looks of it, the world’s foremost expert on homosexuality - described her mentees as just a group of women who wanted to contribute to society.

There is no reason not to accept at face value this characterisation. It is impossible to believe this group woke up one day and consciously decided to do ill by taking over Aware, as the caricature on the other side would have it. Which is precisely why one wonders about the methods they chose to employ.

The means used in pursuit of any cause ought to be commensurate with the ends proposed. Bad means cannot encompass good ends. If your goals are fairness, justice and goodwill, you cannot achieve them by employing surreptitious, opaque and divisive means. The moral universe does have a balance sheet: You cannot be in the red on means and expect to be in the clear on ends

Dr Thio’s team got this equation wrong. Whatever one might have thought of their ends - and there are good people on both sides of that argument - it was difficult not to notice that their means did not measure up.

They did not declare openly who they were - until they were pressed to do so; they were not transparent about their policy aims - until their aims became apparent despite themselves; they did not answer questions - until it was too late to dispel doubts.

We know process matters in the law and politics. The Aware Saga has taught us it matters in civil society too, which tends to attract passionate, committed and often self-righteous people.

It is precisely because the self-righteous have so often in history cited their ends to justify whatever means they employed that democracies have learnt to insist on transparent and open processes.

# Lesson No. 2: Pluralism matters

There is nothing wrong with religious people involving themselves in secular groups - as individuals. The vast majority of Singaporeans are religious. We would have hardly anyone in politics, Government or civil society if we were to insist people checked in their religious beliefs before entering these secular realms.

But that does not mean that the spiritual and the secular, the church and the state, should be confused. It does not mean that the faithful of any religion can impose their views on others. And it most certainly does not mean that the religious should organise themselves in groups to pursue secular agendas. It is actually against the law in Singapore to have a Buddhist Action Party or a Christian Reform Party or a United Muslim Front.

There is no reason to doubt the assurances of Dr Thio’s group that they were not acting on behalf of any particular religion. The clear statement on Thursday by Dr John Chew, president of the National Council of Churches of Singapore, that the NCCS did not condone any church getting involved in Aware’s leadership tussle, set the record straight.

It was nevertheless daft - no more appropriate word comes to mind - for six people from the same church to have attempted this takeover at Aware. What were they thinking of?

That people wouldn’t learn they came from the same church? That people wouldn’t mind a secular organisation being taken over by a group clearly identified with a particular church in a particular denomination of a particular religion? And if they had won last Saturday’s vote of confidence, having depended on support solely from their co-religionists, that they could have continued credibly as leaders of a secular organisation?

If they had prevailed, Dr Thio’s group would have established, inadvertently perhaps, a new benchmark for social activism among the religiously-inspired. It’s hardly credible that Buddhists and Taoists - who together constitute close to half the population - or Roman Catholics, Muslims and Hindus, would have, in response, left the field uncontested to Protestants.

Everyone realised that would not be good for Singapore. Thus Dr Chew’s statement and the strong support it received from other religious leaders. It was good that they combined spontaneously to draw a firm line.

# Lesson No. 3: OB markers matter

As controversies go, The Aware Saga was minor. It did not permanently alter the body politic. Socially, it was the equivalent of a group of women, setting off on what they assumed would be a diverting walk, falling into a ditch. But it could have been worse - and that is precisely the point.

There were moments when things got uncomfortable. Ms Josie Lau, the erstwhile Aware president, received a death threat. The pastor of her church, Mr Derek Hong, spoke in terms that he later regretted. There was loose talk of Christians versus the rest.

The so-called ‘liberals’ in Aware have won. I am personally glad they did. But here is something that some ‘liberals’ may not be comfortable with: This episode proves why we need many ‘illiberal’ laws - including the Religious Harmony Act, Group Representation Constituencies, HDB racial quotas, etc.

Religious and racial harmony here are not givens. You have got to work at maintaining them. The Aware Saga shows we still have some work left to do.

[email protected]


What the Spore Christian leaders said and did thru John Chew and the rest was correct - Christianity in its essence and truth, does not advocate a takeover of worldly institutions in the name of religion in order to change beliefs of others. .
 

scroobal

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Never had been a fan of his but this is indeed an excellent piece. For the first time, I could understand every sentence.

Process, pluralism, protection
Straits Times, 04 May 2009
ST link

By Janadas Devan, Review Editor

‘THE Aware Saga’ has come to an end. What lessons does the episode hold for civil society? There are undoubtedly many, but here is a preliminary set of what I believe are the chief lessons:

]
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

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On the LGBT issue...I think the LGBT gang would do well to also take heed of Teo Chee hean advice...Singapore is still a conservative society regardless of race, religion or gender...

Learn from this episode: DPM
'WELL, I think all sides should take away the right lessons from this and focus on wanting to serve the community and do your best.

I think there will always be differences in society; it is a question of whether we can deal with them in a sensible way, learn how to accept one another's differences and still work together for the good of this society. There are people in our society with different views and if ... we push them too hard, there will be a push back from the other side. You are not going to resolve some of these differences because they are strongly held and you risk polarising society if you push too hard.


On the CSE issue...I don't think the issue so clear as you make it out to be...Dr Thio and Josie and her pussycats have so far made subjective assertions only...I await to see MOE's findings after its inquiry following certain parent's complaints which btw were only made after the fact:wink:

PS. I agree with you that Claire Nazar has come out of this saga very well...it appears that Claire holds the same religious values and beliefs like Dr Thio and Josie and her pussycats (nothing wrong with that really, to each his/her own)...however unlike the cunning sly fox self proclaimed feminist mentor dr thio, claire in the nick of time finally appeared to realise that she was being used and manipulated by dr thio when she became president...claire appeared to have the good conscience and integrity not take part in such shenanigans...kudos to claire
Christians are not for the promotion of homosexuality as a lifestyle - now and in years, there will be a battle which will become more visible. Homosexuals I reckon, are not satisfied to stay in their closets, and will fight to have more rights eg right to marriage. Fridae is not likely to be quiet, and I think they are already becoming more activist. I don't think Christians or the significant majority of Singapore society will like to see this to happen - hence I think this is just the beginning of more fights to come.

Let Aware be Aware. For Josie and others, they can form your NGO organisation to fight what they believe and worry about concerning the subtle promotion of the homosexual lifestyle. Or they can counteract by opposing certain issues of Aware which is fair and square in this society. At some point soon, we are likely to see more activist actions from such silent Singapore individuals whether christian or not. What this event has aroused is the school education programme by Aware - in a way, Josie and gang has already won in my view as their goal is to stop the subtle the promotion of homosexuality. Singapore parents will undoubtedly be very concerned about this issue. Let us see how MOE reacts - on this point, MOE is likely to stand on the side of this conservative society.
 
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Porfirio Rubirosa

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Locke,

i find it ironic that you mention the States because in ST Insight's article on 2/5, i recall self declared feminist mentor dr thio make the lame assertion that the LGBT gang was on the path of "neo colonialism" following the liberal agendas in the West:rolleyes:...i tell you this Dr Thio is really a cunning sly fox raising such labels such as "neo colonialism"; "pro woman"; "pro family" and best of all "pro singapore"...sean hanity and rush limbaugh would be rpoud of her...however thank goodness her "daft" plan (to use janadas devan's apt words) failed...

also after all that has happened and all that has been written...i tend to pity Josie because she now looks like a misguided naive foolish pawn 'controlled' by dr thio, hubby alan and pastor hong.


Btw how was it like on the white plastic seat section? Any nubile syt babe give you a carnation or sunflower or better still a kiss?:biggrin::p
Dear Real


What Pastor Hong has forgotten and seems to forget is that Singapore is not the US whereby 40% of them go to church. With a larger church going population, smaller percentages of other religions and atheist, a more aggressive xtian agenda might have to be tolerated and be more socially and politically acceptable



Locke
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

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aiyah most important question here to guys...is she a syt chiobu?:rolleyes::biggrin:
theres a lesbian at my workplace who goes abt touching her female colleagues ... and although she had never come clean with her orientation, i realised she was a lesbian, but alot of my blur female colleagues allow her to touch & caress them bcos they think its ok just becos she's a woman, if it was a man they would have shouted 'molest' already i bet ... (however i must add that this person has a history of mental illness also, so maybe its her illness and not orientation that makes her act this way ? ) ...

[/COLOR]
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

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BS...why then did that forked tongue pastor hong have to do a mea culpa volte face sorry just 24 hours after he made his first hypocritical statement:rolleyes:...
I disagree with you. It was the media who played the religious card trying to give Christianity a bad. I blame the press for breaking the religious harmony the govt had tried so hard to build. They are the guilty ones.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

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Look at the facts...why did pastor hong have to come out with his "regret" mea culpa statement just 24 hours after his initial hypocritical statement?...also look at these statements made by Dr Thio...

"Unfortunately, I cannot surface but shall be assisting in the background"

"I was disturbed by what Aware was doing and felt that I had to do my part, but I didn't want to front it. If not, we would not have advantage"


you are misconceived to think that this was a battle between pro family v LBGT...it was not...this was clearly a battle between religionists v public secular space...

let me end by saying this...i gather that there were other pro family christians who were thinking of going down to the eogm to support josie...but they appeared to pull back support after the NCCS statement by bishop john chew saying that it did not condone churches getting involved in the Aware saga...to quote one such chrsitian "I talked it over with my bible study group and we all agreed that it is not good for singapore to create this division. There are other avenues to bring up this matter"...thank goodness for mature rational common sense.

I feel that there is no winner out of this whole saga except may be Straits Times. What I learned from this saga was the power of the reporter. It actually show me how media can influence readers. Take for example the findings of ousted exco members were from the same church, w/o the need to comment further, it indirectly indicated to readers on the reporter suspicion. The reporters on this topic were like Shelock Holmes. But it didn't really focus deeper into other areas like: before this so called 'coup' happened, Aware AGM was only with 25 attendees- were they loosing their relevancy with the downtrend in membership? When the old guards were elected out, granted they should feel shock by no one seemed to try to understand why? Who on earth would want to takeover a small organisation without much gain out of it?

I really don't like the way ST spiced up the saga as a 'coup'. By doing so, they are not reporters but playing the judge role. Were there concrete evidences that these ousted exco came together purposely to oust the old guard? I could sense some of the ST reporters are just siding on the old guards, no longer playing a neutral ground.

I am worry that the reporters have learned how to use the media power entrusted to them to put it to their own use guided by their own feelings...may be ST management should look into this.

The loosers? Not the old guard and the ousted exco. But people like us who have kept mum and not speaking up, still holding strong traditional views on family values etc. The western world is good in redefining society, family, even marriage. All these under the name of advancement. Has anyone known what the effect would be? It might be too late when it happen.

There are so-called many sexual courses out there. All written by 'acclaimed' professional but you wonder if some of these have their own agenda. To simply believe in 'successful courses' and adopt them (it is still about business, selling courses!) just because of wide acceptancy (may be there was other reason for being so), leaving it unchecked, in the end, parents like us who keep mum would only suffer.

Aware claimed to be inclusive, but they are ignoring the quiet/silent majority of Singapore. So, if they continue to take this path, they can't represent Singapore women any more. It is therefore very important for the re-elected AWARE exco to celebrate briefly their victory but to think harder. Don't just keep living in the past glory of contribution of 20 over years or hard work but search deeply that if AWARE has been able to stay relevant to the greater community?
 
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