WP Supports UNEQUAL Treatment of Citizens?

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

thanks...to me i tend to think of Mel Gibson in "the patriot" and "braveheart"

A patriot is loyal to the country as a demographic entity. A nationalist is loyal to the nation as a political entity. One may then ask, what's the difference between a county and a nation? Let's not go far as one example that's close to us would be the merger and demerger with Malaysia. In merger, Malaysia was our nation; in independence, Singapore is our nation. A Malaysian nationalist in Singapore then might feel betrayed by the events whereas a Singapore patriot might think it it's better that way. Different motivations, but both in good faith.

 

[Ramseth]

thanks...to me i tend to think of Mel Gibson in "the patriot" and "braveheart"

Exactly. Good example. Braveheart (and even George Washington etc.) were considered patriots, they were loyal to the land and people they identified with, regardless of political loyalty, whether to monarch or nation. Remember, they all started life as British subjects and were considered rebels by the British Empire, yet they're also considered patriots.

 

[scroobal]

Don't know about the rest but Shamugam expressed discontent over SAP schools and the different treatment that they received in his first year as MP. LHL came swinging out and cut him to pieces about questioning the SAP system. Thereafter he was quite as a churchmouse.

Not sure if you are aware but PAP has a long standing instructions that certain taboo subjects must have party whip clearence.

By the way, did you notice that a comment about malay females getting pregnant and thereafter failing in their marriage. The "full" text by SPH had a more derogatory comment omitted. When old man wrote his "war and peace", he got Yatiman Yusoff to edit out or suggest amendments to anything sensitive. I suppose the consitution covers that as well.

putting aside the "legacy" aspect...i wonder what say GCT, vivian, tharman, teo chee hean, george, shanmugam, raymond would have to say...

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Don't know about the rest but Shamugam expressed discontent over SAP schools and the different treatment that they received in his first year as MP. LHL came swinging out and cut him to pieces about questioning the SAP system. Thereafter he was quite as a churchmouse.

Not sure if you are aware but PAP has a long standing instructions that certain taboo subjects must have party whip clearence.

By the way, did you notice that a comment about malay females getting pregnant and thereafter failing in their marriage. The "full" text by SPH had a more derogatory comment omitted. When old man wrote his "war and peace", he got Yatiman Yusoff to edit out or suggest amendments to anything sensitive. I suppose the consitution covers that as well.

As a product of SAP school myself, I would say that it was social experiment which aimed to get rid of Chinese Schools as well as Nantah in steps.

SAP schools today is totally different from SAP schools 20 years ago. The standard of Chinese has been "marginalized". I do not see any big difference between SAP school or Chinese school.

PAP's English-centric policy is the root cause of SAP school. I would say that instead of viewing SAP school as a "special privilege" for Chinese students, it is in actual fact a scheme that aims to slowly erode Chinese education in Singapore, which ironically, now they find it a mistake after China's rise.

It would be a total misconception to view SAP school as plus for Chinese. It is in fact a slow poison for Chinese education.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Ramseth]

From the early 70s onward, traditional Chinese schools and Nantah faced dwindling numbers of students enrolled until it reached crisis levels by the late 70s. More and more Chinese parents see the English stream as the only viable education for the sake of their children's future. It's fine long as their children are still taught Chinese even at a 2nd language level.

At the turn of the 70s, Singaporeans began to realise that a secure future for their children lies with good jobs in the civil service, stat boards, GLCs, MNCs and the professions, all requiring a foundation in English education.

If PAP were so English-centric as you think them to be, they could have easily let the Chinese schools die a natural death and needn't be bothered with the 2nd language policy for English schools. On the contrary, I think that they have spotted the potential of China reopening up after the death of Mao Zedong and rise of Deng Xiaoping.

The SAP schools were efforts to save the top prestigious names in Chinese schools, some form of Chinese as 1st language and higher Chinese, which otherwise wouldn't have survived in Singapore. That's why it's called "special assistance" and not "special privilege".

It restored the ailing Chinese schools to prestige and desirability again, however at the cost of actually turning them into de facto English schools with extra Chinese curriculum. Overall Chinese standards are sure to be compromised, but it better than losing it all to be a mere 2nd language.

As a product of SAP school myself, I would say that it was social experiment which aimed to get rid of Chinese Schools as well as Nantah in steps.

SAP schools today is totally different from SAP schools 20 years ago. The standard of Chinese has been "marginalized". I do not see any big difference between SAP school or Chinese school.

PAP's English-centric policy is the root cause of SAP school. I would say that instead of viewing SAP school as a "special privilege" for Chinese students, it is in actual fact a scheme that aims to slowly erode Chinese education in Singapore, which ironically, now they find it a mistake after China's rise.

It would be a total misconception to view SAP school as plus for Chinese. It is in fact a slow poison for Chinese education.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[scroobal]

I am aware that it was political compromise to do away with chinese schools and Nantah and to make the Chinese-centric students move towards english and Chinese as 1st languages and therefore attractive to employers.

Unfortunately, the message that goes out to other Singaporeans is that it is exclusive and race based. There are no other race based schools like it. The perception is one of chauvinism. The damage is tremendous. They should have had SAP school classes integrated with normal schools so that all races can mingle in canteen, library, sports, drama, and a range of extra-currcular activities. So much for nation building.

To make it worse, the facilities and infrastructure is certainly well above other schools. At one stage, they hired native english speakers to teach English and that became another political crisis that never became public.

Languages will deteriorate when it far away from the Motherland. Its will deteriorate even further when other languages are also spoken in close proximity. We will never attain the standards of Beijing and we have to build that in our Psyche.

Look at the Indians in Malaysia. Samy Vellu made sure that all Indians had access to venacular tamil education. They thought he was a guardian of their culture. After 40 years, that kept him power as the longest serving cabinet minister and they had high standard of tamil education but also ended up unemployed and totally detached to the rest of Malaysia.

As I said, it would have been better that SAP classes be integrated in normal schools. Those steeped in Chinese culture and language could move onto a tertiary based institution after their secondary educartion in a purpose built building and we might have been richer. It would have been wonderful for our psyche.

As a product of SAP school myself, I would say that it was social experiment which aimed to get rid of Chinese Schools as well as Nantah in steps.

SAP schools today is totally different from SAP schools 20 years ago. The standard of Chinese has been "marginalized". I do not see any big difference between SAP school or Chinese school.

PAP's English-centric policy is the root cause of SAP school. I would say that instead of viewing SAP school as a "special privilege" for Chinese students, it is in actual fact a scheme that aims to slowly erode Chinese education in Singapore, which ironically, now they find it a mistake after China's rise.

It would be a total misconception to view SAP school as plus for Chinese. It is in fact a slow poison for Chinese education.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Ramseth & Scroobal,

It is inaccurate to say that the only way to be economic viable, one has to sacrifice their own language and take English as the "Master Language". Just take a good look at the Four Asian Tigers, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea and Singapore. All except Singapore have preserved their own cultural languages, be it Cantonese, Chinese or Korean. Japan could well be a good example too.

Thus, whether Chinese or Malay or Tamil is "survivable" depends very much on the Government and our cultural pride. Although our official languages are four main languages but it seems that English has taken center stage for the civil service while all other three languages are being sidelined. LKY has correctly stated that our "master language" is English and this is due to government administration measures which discriminate other languages even though they are "National Official Languages".

The deliberate discrimination practice of the civil service results in the marginalization of these Official Languages. And thus, in the end, Singaporeans would naturally try to struggle and consider to drop the importance of learning their own "Mother Tongue" in pursuit of English because that's the only Language that even the Civil Service emphasize on.

Nantah was FORCEFULLY closed down, a forced closure, not actually dying a "Natural Death". I mean, even though with such discriminative measures, there were still many students who wish to study in a Chinese Nantah. In fact, it is not accurate to consider Nantah as merely a "Chinese University". Nantah has provided multiple language environment which include higher learning of Malay language as well. The force closure of Nantah is POLITICAL in nature, not "ECONOMIC CONSIDERATIONS".

Naturally, after closing Nantah, all other Chinese based primary and secondary schools will no longer have a proper lineage for higher education opportunity. The SAP school policy came about to mitigate this problem, to transform Chinese secondary schools slowly into English based ones.

However, I do agree with Scroobal that it was a mistake to exclude other races from these SAP schools. This was one of the key problem I have thought about even during my secondary school days. It is something I would regret of not having the opportunity to mix more with other races during my youth due to my education background.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[scroobal]

Bro, what they should have done is to create centre of excellence for the official languages and keep it reasonably resourced. This will help keep the language and culture alive and vibrant. The Tigers are basically homogenous society with their native language as the working language so the comparison is not accurate. It will be harder for singapore but it can be done.

The mistake was to tie languages to education in a compulsory manner.

Would share with you a case that I heard of regarding a Nantah Grad. He was placed in the civil service in the Land Office as he had done well academically. The 1st generation perm secs were given strict instruction to ensure that they succeed as Chinese votes were crucial. This chap however realised that English correspondence was his biggest issue and despite they attempting to carry him over a number of years, he became despondent. There are many stories like that in the early years. I don't think there was discrimination in the civil service but in fact affirmative actions of sorts were operating.

I will tell you another observation that has not been revealed - Malay and Tamil students who excelled in their mother tongue (top in their class), the majority never proceeded to Tertiary education. They took umbrage in the language that they were comfortable and neglected the rest. I told that they had the same issue with Chinese Ed students - they first thought and analysied in their mother tongue and then translated in English.

Here is the irony - the Governing Board of Nanthah had their kids sent to English schools and had a western education. They knew which side of the bread was buttered.

I have no issues that cultures and native languages be looked after and I think it is a separate issue from getting a person ready to join the workforce.

I think we can learn from the Malaysian Chinese. They had their venacular schools but they ensured that science and maths were at a very high level and that English and Malay was also reasonable kept up to standard. After "O" level ( not "A" levels) the top ones were admitted to NUS for many years under a special program. I was surprised that they spoke and wrote good english. Nantah Science students could not hold a candle to the Malaysian Chinese Science students because the Nantah lecturers were more into chauvinism, culture and preserving their tenure with political intrigue that they forgot their role as educators. The Madarsahs in Singapore were also in the same boat until the govt got rid of them in the early 90s.

Like the muslim fundamentalist, it became a show where one was trying to be more chinese than the other.

Dear Ramseth & Scroobal,

It is inaccurate to say that the only way to be economic viable, one has to sacrifice their own language and take English as the "Master Language". Just take a good look at the Four Asian Tigers, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea and Singapore. All except Singapore have preserved their own cultural languages, be it Cantonese, Chinese or Korean. Japan could well be a good example too.

Thus, whether Chinese or Malay or Tamil is "survivable" depends very much on the Government and our cultural pride. Although our official languages are four main languages but it seems that English has taken center stage for the civil service while all other three languages are being sidelined. LKY has correctly stated that our "master language" is English and this is due to government administration measures which discriminate other languages even though they are "National Official Languages".

The deliberate discrimination practice of the civil service results in the marginalization of these Official Languages. And thus, in the end, Singaporeans would naturally try to struggle and consider to drop the importance of learning their own "Mother Tongue" in pursuit of English because that's the only Language that even the Civil Service emphasize on.

Nantah was FORCEFULLY closed down, a forced closure, not actually dying a "Natural Death". I mean, even though with such discriminative measures, there were still many students who wish to study in a Chinese Nantah. In fact, it is not accurate to consider Nantah as merely a "Chinese University". Nantah has provided multiple language environment which include higher learning of Malay language as well. The force closure of Nantah is POLITICAL in nature, not "ECONOMIC CONSIDERATIONS".

Naturally, after closing Nantah, all other Chinese based primary and secondary schools will no longer have a proper lineage for higher education opportunity. The SAP school policy came about to mitigate this problem, to transform Chinese secondary schools slowly into English based ones.

However, I do agree with Scroobal that it was a mistake to exclude other races from these SAP schools. This was one of the key problem I have thought about even during my secondary school days. It is something I would regret of not having the opportunity to mix more with other races during my youth due to my education background.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Ramseth]

Unfortunately, the message that goes out to other Singaporeans is that it is exclusive and race based. There are no other race based schools like it. The perception is one of chauvinism. The damage is tremendous. They should have had SAP school classes integrated with normal schools so that all races can mingle in canteen, library, sports, drama, and a range of extra-currcular activities. So much for nation building.

I agree. SAP could have been designed as multi-lingual scheme so that top Malay and Indian students could also enrol and study higher Malay and higher Tamil there in separate language classes, while studying together with Chinese students for all other subjects taught in English. It would then be a special scheme to aid the brighter students of all races instead of a special scheme for Chinese only.

 

[scroobal]

It was certainly a missed opportunity.

Its interesting that non-chinese singaporeans did not have an issue with Chinese venacular schools existing within the Singapore education system until 1980 but when SAP was announced there was disquiet initially among the non- chinese intelligentsia and then the rest when it began operating.

The dynamics leading to the SAP school decision must have been complex. Old man discusses the superficial ones in his memoirs but I suspect that he left out the main reason in order not to offend The Chinese Teachers Union which is a powerful faction in the PAP.

I know that one key factor was that Teachers in the initial years of SAP did not have a good commmand of English even to teach science and humanities and felt embarrased if non-chinese were introduced. So the true factor might not be chauvinism but vanity.

I agree. SAP could have been designed as multi-lingual scheme so that top Malay and Indian students could also enrol and study higher Malay and higher Tamil there in separate language classes, while studying together with Chinese students for all other subjects taught in English. It would then be a special scheme to aid the brighter students of all races instead of a special scheme for Chinese only.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

My generation is the laboratory rat generation which has to go through the experimental stage of Streaming and then SAP school.

It is true that at that stage, the teachers teaching science subjects are not able to have good command of English as they have been teaching these subjects in Chinese. But there is no reason for the evolution of SAP school to be stagnant at the present stage. After almost 25 years of evolution, I believe SAP schools should include Tamil and Malay as first languages in their curriculum as well.

It is totally unhealthy for students at their age not have the opportunity of mixing with other races. Although there will most probably some other race students in the express class but the stigma and labels put on SAP schools by other races is very unhealthy in a multi-racial society.

Goh Meng Seng

It was certainly a missed opportunity.

Its interesting that non-chinese singaporeans did not have an issue with Chinese venacular schools existing within the Singapore education system until 1980 but when SAP was announced there was disquiet initially among the non- chinese intelligentsia and then the rest when it began operating.

The dynamics leading to the SAP school decision must have been complex. Old man discusses the superficial ones in his memoirs but I suspect that he left out the main reason in order not to offend The Chinese Teachers Union which is a powerful faction in the PAP.

I know that one key factor was that Teachers in the initial years of SAP did not have a good commmand of English even to teach science and humanities and felt embarrased if non-chinese were introduced. So the true factor might not be chauvinism but vanity.

 

[scroobal]

Thanks for sharing your experience. Completely agree with your views and your preparedness to be open about it.

Hopefully the Govt will accept that all Singaporeans will be matured enough to understand the formation of SAP schools and the desire to keep it exclusive to one race at that time. There was reason/s for it and I am sure the non-Chinese will comprehend.

Certainly a step in the right direction.

My generation is the laboratory rat generation which has to go through the experimental stage of Streaming and then SAP school.

It is true that at that stage, the teachers teaching science subjects are not able to have good command of English as they have been teaching these subjects in Chinese. But there is no reason for the evolution of SAP school to be stagnant at the present stage. After almost 25 years of evolution, I believe SAP schools should include Tamil and Malay as first languages in their curriculum as well.

It is totally unhealthy for students at their age not have the opportunity of mixing with other races. Although there will most probably some other race students in the express class but the stigma and labels put on SAP schools by other races is very unhealthy in a multi-racial society.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear GMS

I am afraid not many are as intelligent as you in being effectively bi lingual. The models you cited S Korea and Taiwan developed without the primacy of English because of their lack of dependence on FDI and their concentration on manufacturing and whilst the vast majority lacked the English base, the taiwanese and the S Koreans made sure that the best had the English education and sent them overseas. HK was dependent on FDI but not as dependent on manufacturing and went into services. It imported large numbers of its English talent. The smartest one's were effectively bi lingual but for many and yes the vast majority I saw them struggling in the UK because English was not the primary medium in HK.. I speak of those who were children of retired civil servants, police officers who were entitled to free UNI education in the UK

The policy of English primacy was I feel the correct in but the need for those who could be taught another first language and yes "minority" could have been better implemented. without SAP schools.



Locke

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

ironically Shan's next 'big speech' many years left probably left him in no doubt as the best choice to replace jeyakumar as min for law...btw do you recall the theme of davinder singh's one and only big speech before he too became silent over his years in parliament?

Don't know about the rest but Shamugam expressed discontent over SAP schools and the different treatment that they received in his first year as MP. LHL came swinging out and cut him to pieces about questioning the SAP system. Thereafter he was quite as a churchmouse..

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

This could have been done quite easily...just look at HCJC in the 80s...all the chinese tradition and culture, yet it also catered to the few malay, indian and eurasian bright jc students who chose to study there...another appealing draw to HCJC at that time was the powerful humanities programme run by an intuitive english chap by the name of wiltshire (i think if my memory serves me right)...put HCJC on track with the oxbridge colleges, although RI was already the local leading light...notable alumni...cherian george and warren fernandez...

As I said, it would have been better that SAP classes be integrated in normal schools. Those steeped in Chinese culture and language could move onto a tertiary based institution after their secondary educartion in a purpose built building and we might have been richer. It would have been wonderful for our psyche.

 

[scroobal]

Davinder commented about the quality of New Paper journalism. Balji who then was the editor came out swinging and challenged Davinder to point out examples of bad journalism. Davinder withdrew his comments and became the quietest MP in Singapore's Parliament History. Chua Sian Chin would have been quietest but he was the long serving Home Affairs Minister so had little choice but answer questions from the back bench.

Davinder's contribution in Parliament was absolutely nil.

Everyone knows that NP standard is much more towards gossip rags but Balji pitched it as an easy read for everyone looking for a quick summary.

ironically Shan's next 'big speech' many years left probably left him in no doubt as the best choice to replace jeyakumar as min for law...btw do you recall the theme of davinder singh's one and only big speech before he too became silent over his years in parliament?

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

glad to see such enlightenment bro...do your friends from the same cohort hold such views??

However, I do agree with Scroobal that it was a mistake to exclude other races from these SAP schools. This was one of the key problem I have thought about even during my secondary school days. It is something I would regret of not having the opportunity to mix more with other races during my youth due to my education background.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

was your cohort involved in the half baked "immersion scheme programme" where SAP schools were twinned with the top mainstream schools like RI & RGS?...

My generation is the laboratory rat generation which has to go through the experimental stage of Streaming and then SAP school.


Goh Meng Seng

 

[Perspective]

nd became the quietest MP in Singapore's Parliament History

Davinder's contribution in Parliament was absolutely nil.

That's because his attendance in Parl was close to nil. I think he was "fighting" with Shanmugam for rock bottom attendance. Glad he's out.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

when i was working in HK it was obvious even at that professional level that Singgies had a big advantage over their HK counterparts when working in the MNC environment...command of english was a big difference...must thank the PAP govt for this...

Dear GMS

. HK was dependent on FDI but not as dependent on manufacturing and went into services. It imported large numbers of its English talent. The smartest one's were effectively bi lingual but for many and yes the vast majority I saw them struggling in the UK because English was not the primary medium in HK.. I speak of those who were children of retired civil servants, police officers who were entitled to free UNI education in the UK

The policy of English primacy was I feel the correct in but the need for those who could be taught another first language and yes "minority" could have been better implemented. without SAP schools.



Locke