Typhoon struck pineapple land for a reason

[Frodo]

And that Jesus Christ will appear again, this time in glory from the heavens?

Fren, I believe that Jesus already came a second time. The first time in a story during the time of Caesar, the second time, he came to us. Some chose to accept him, others rejected.

Cheers!

Other than the initials being the same, Jesus Christ is not Julius Caesar.

And I doubt any historian of repute will make that mistake.

 

[Agoraphobic]

"I think, therefore I exist."

Back in uni, someone in my dormitory said, "I stink, therefore I exist!" We all agreed, if I could smell your fart, you have to be around somewhere! Anyways, to make things simple, we think because we have senses, a brain, a nervous system, life. I am an individual, a person. How we came about, we're still finding out. How life came about, we're still finding out. If God made us (and other things around us), how did God come around? Maybe our minds are (still) too miniscule to grasp an understanding of things greater than what's before us.

Thanks for sharing your views. My wife recently completed a book about a near-death incident. In it, the author claims that God is within us and not "out there" somewhere. Whatever it is, we all have to deal with day-to-day things and attend to life's needs. When we have the time to think and ponder on things greater than daily needs of our flesh's existence, it makes us wonder how little and minute we are in the universe. It makes us think.

Cheers!

You have sidestepped the point I was making. That we are still discovering things is not the issue, that we are still learning more about God's world is not the issue. The point I made was that it is worth thinking about the fact that we can even think. Why is it that we can think? What accounts for our rational faculties? God did not create Adam and Eve as preprogrammed robots, but certainly they came designed with inbuilt "software" that can be exercised and developed as they interact with their created environment.

No, I don't believe God created the world in 7 days, so I am not imposing that on anyone. Neither am I imposing the truth that God created the universe in 6 days on anyone. I am sharing that view, which is not the same as imposing which is an emotionally-charged word to use that does not truly reflect what is going on here.

 

[Agoraphobic]

No mistake was made. Caesar has no followers.

Cheers!

Other than the initials being the same, Jesus Christ is not Julius Caesar.

And I doubt any historian of repute will make that mistake.

 

[Frodo]

"I think, therefore I exist."

Back in uni, someone in my dormitory said, "I stink, therefore I exist!" We all agreed, if I could smell your fart, you have to be around somewhere! Anyways, to make things simple, we think because we have senses, a brain, a nervous system, life. I am an individual, a person. How we came about, we're still finding out. How life came about, we're still finding out. If God made us (and other things around us), how did God come around? Maybe our minds are (still) too miniscule to grasp an understanding of things greater than what's before us.

Thanks for sharing your views. My wife recently completed a book about a near-death incident. In it, the author claims that God is within us and not "out there" somewhere. Whatever it is, we all have to deal with day-to-day things and attend to life's needs. When we have the time to think and ponder on things greater than daily needs of our flesh's existence, it makes us wonder how little and minute we are in the universe. It makes us think.

Cheers!

Saying you can think because you have a brain is not going far enough. It begs the question, Where did your brain come from? You should also note that asking where God come from is another different question altogether, and also irrelevant. For example, if the question is who killed John Smith and it is Andrew, it is irrelevant to ask who is Andrew's mother. You can answer the first question without needing to know the answer to the second.

NDE are interesting phenomenon and I believe it points to life beyond death, there is an afterlife. Yes, the Bible says that our lives are rather fleeting, compared to eternity, so all the more it is important to make decisions that affect our eternal destiny within this short life span we have.

 

[Agoraphobic]

This leading no where, not that is was supposed to. That's why I seldom wish to get into discussions on religion - it never ends. We will never know. One can accept, or reject it. I can live with the thought that I will not know everything in my life.

But since it is really quiet at work (hope it won't be like that the rest of the year), I can answer this one - where did God come from? God came from our thoughts. It is a creation of our minds. We need this created God to fill the voids left by unexplained mysteries (or uncertainties). We (us, humans) needed something superior to the forces of nature, some being that at will could calm great storms, tame the weather, and so, if we are good and obedient, he (she?) will be appeased and reward us with fair weather, successful crops, plentiful harvests. Even help us eliminate our enemies (Jews found that god!). It's been millennia since we thought of this god, and we still haven't found him. Some of us have speculated that God is within us, we need not look at the stars and out too look for him, we just have to close our eyes, keep quiet, and search ourselves, and find peace within us. There, we will find God.

Cheers!

Saying you can think because you have a brain is not going far enough. It begs the question, Where did your brain come from? You should also note that asking where God come from is another different question altogether, and also irrelevant. For example, if the question is who killed John Smith and it is Andrew, it is irrelevant to ask who is Andrew's mother. You can answer the first question without needing to know the answer to the second.

NDE are interesting phenomenon and I believe it points to life beyond death, there is an afterlife. Yes, the Bible says that our lives are rather fleeting, compared to eternity, so all the more it is important to make decisions that affect our eternal destiny within this short life span we have.

 

[Frodo]

This leading no where, not that is was supposed to. That's why I seldom wish to get into discussions on religion - it never ends. We will never know. One can accept, or reject it. I can live with the thought that I will not know everything in my life.

But since it is really quiet at work (hope it won't be like that the rest of the year), I can answer this one - where did God come from? God came from our thoughts. It is a creation of our minds. We need this created God to fill the voids left by unexplained mysteries (or uncertainties). We (us, humans) needed something superior to the forces of nature, some being that at will could calm great storms, tame the weather, and so, if we are good and obedient, he (she?) will be appeased and reward us with fair weather, successful crops, plentiful harvests. Even help us eliminate our enemies (Jews found that god!). It's been millennia since we thought of this god, and we still haven't found him. Some of us have speculated that God is within us, we need not look at the stars and out too look for him, we just have to close our eyes, keep quiet, and search ourselves, and find peace within us. There, we will find God.

Cheers!

On one hand you said we can never know, yet in the next instance you make a claim to knowledge that God is our own figment of imagination. So how did you know that? How did you know that God is not our Creator?

 

[Agoraphobic]

God can be anything you want him/she/it to be. Who's to say you'd be right or wrong? Truth is nobody can say with certainty.

Cheers!

On one hand you said we can never know, yet in the next instance you make a claim to knowledge that God is our own figment of imagination. So how did you know that? How did you know that God is not our Creator?

 

[Frodo]

God can be anything you want him/she/it to be. Who's to say you'd be right or wrong? Truth is nobody can say with certainty.

Cheers!

But then you are ASSUMING there is no God to begin with, that God is mere figment of imagination. This has not been demonstrated by you in any way. And how do you know that it is true that nobody can say with certainty, yet you are so certain of that?

BTW, if you have time you may want to check out http://joshmcdowellmedia.org/FreeBooks/JoshMcDowellAnswersFiveToughQuestions.pdf

 

[Agoraphobic]

I am not assuming that there is no god. I just say that we do not know. And if there is a god, we do not know what form(s) s/he takes, what it desires/wants from us, his subjects. Throughout history, our species have come up with all sorts of variations and interpretation of this entity. It is not my duty or obligation to tell the world what or who god is or whether there is or isn't one. That's up to the individual, or society.

Cheers!

But then you are ASSUMING there is no God to begin with, that God is mere figment of imagination. This has not been demonstrated by you in any way. And how do you know that it is true that nobody can say with certainty, yet you are so certain of that?

BTW, if you have time you may want to check out http://joshmcdowellmedia.org/FreeBooks/JoshMcDowellAnswersFiveToughQuestions.pdf

 

[Frodo]

I am not assuming that there is no god. I just say that we do not know. And if there is a god, we do not know what form(s) s/he takes, what it desires/wants from us, his subjects. Throughout history, our species have come up with all sorts of variations and interpretation of this entity. It is not my duty or obligation to tell the world what or who god is or whether there is or isn't one. That's up to the individual, or society.

Cheers!

However it seems that your claim to agnosticism is not matched by your claim to know that God is invented by fertile human imagination. And you also claim to know that we cannot know anything about God, that in itself is a claim to knowledge. But how do you know that? As a Christian I believe God has revealed Himself to us through the Bible. God is not hidden from us. Even through the created universe we can know something about God, just like through a painting you can know something about the artist.

 

[Agoraphobic]

I did not claim to be Agnostic, whatever that is. Fren, I am not against what you chose to believe in, that is your right. You are a Christian with firm faith, good for you. Now, allow others to seek peace in what they believe in whether Hinduism, Islam, Taoism and whatever our history has concocted. Me, I keep an open mind and remain a mortal human.

Your god is spoken of well by the bible, church literature, and today by Hollywood. He (a fatherly figure) takes the form of a burning bush and chose the peoples of Moses as his favored peoples. Only they can be disobedient and not face his wrath? And Jesus came and spread the word to the rest (I think it was St. Paul's work). Fine, the world awaits his second coming.

Keep waiting.

Cheers!

However it seems that your claim to agnosticism is not matched by your claim to know that God is invented by fertile human imagination. And you also claim to know that we cannot know anything about God, that in itself is a claim to knowledge. But how do you know that? As a Christian I believe God has revealed Himself to us through the Bible. God is not hidden from us. Even through the created universe we can know something about God, just like through a painting you can know something about the artist.

 

[kryonlight]

Even through the created universe we can know something about God, just like through a painting you can know something about the artist.

This shows how scientifically naive Christians are.

Science has proven time and again that what we sense from our senses are nothing but electrical signals relayed to the brain by our senses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body). There is no light inside your brain. Sight is merely an interpretation by the brain of the electrical signals relayed by the eye. I could attach electrodes to your optic nerves and you will see a different world.

What you see is not an absolute thing. What you see is an interpretation by your brain. And different brains interpret what is seen differently, colored by one's perceptions and memories.

Since what we see is not an absolute thing, how can we know there is an absolute God such as your almighty Jesus Christ. There is no way for anyone of us to know.

 

[Frodo]

This shows how scientifically naive Christians are.

Science has proven time and again that what we sense from our senses are nothing but electrical signals relayed to the brain by our senses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body). There is no light inside your brain. Sight is merely an interpretation by the brain of the electrical signals relayed by the eye. I could attach electrodes to your optic nerves and you will see a different world.

What you see is not an absolute thing. What you see is an interpretation by your brain. And different brains interpret what is seen differently, colored by one's perceptions and memories.

Since what we see is not an absolute thing, how can we know there is an absolute God such as your almighty Jesus Christ. There is no way for anyone of us to know.

You should count the number of absolute claims you made above.

 

[duluxe]

God can be anything you want him/she/it to be. Who's to say you'd be right or wrong? Truth is nobody can say with certainty.

Cheers!

bro, you are battling with the warp logic "I wish X were true" to "Therefore X is true" of a true christian absolutely.The bible was written from the human perspective, so God needed to to rest for one day after the 'exhaustive' creation task.

You don't know or understand doesn't mean that it must be God-did-it. There's a lot science doesn't tell us, but there's also a lot that science does indeed tell us. What science tells us so far shows no evidence of a creator. Instead it shows a vast universe billions of years old. Is that to say that someday a creator is not found? Certainly not, but it's highly unlikely to be the creator worship by Christians, Jews and Muslims.

 

[duluxe]

I did not claim to be Agnostic, whatever that is. Fren, I am not against what you chose to believe in, that is your right. You are a Christian with firm faith, good for you. Now, allow others to seek peace in what they believe in whether Hinduism, Islam, Taoism and whatever our history has concocted. Me, I keep an open mind and remain a mortal human.

Cheers!

You are not clear what your use of 'firm faith' meant. Secondly, good for one almost always turned out to be not good for others whenever the abrahamic faiths are concerned. Going by recorded christianic history and current happenings related to the christians, highly likely your 'firm faith' meant to be like this pastor http://www.singsupplies.com/showthr...er-to-deface-Guan-Yin-Statute-caught-on-video!

I count myself very fortunate that my christian associates are not of 'firm faith' type, they can be flexible. I believe I would not be able to count myself fortunate when one day a 'firm faith' governor becomes the ruler of my country.

 

[Agoraphobic]

Warp logic is being kind, it should be illogical. Faith is belief in something that cannot be proven. But we live in a society that allows freedom of worship. So, it is live and let live.

Yes, science has discoverd and explained a lot, but there is still a lot more to be explored. Whether we will find this "creator" entity or not we do not know, but discoveries (or more accurately, assumptions based on them) points in directions other than the creator described to us by the established religions. It is an exciting time to be discovering.

Cheers!

bro, you are battling with the warp logic "I wish X were true" to "Therefore X is true" of a true christian absolutely.The bible was written from the human perspective, so God needed to to rest for one day after the 'exhaustive' creation task.

You don't know or understand doesn't mean that it must be God-did-it. There's a lot science doesn't tell us, but there's also a lot that science does indeed tell us. What science tells us so far shows no evidence of a creator. Instead it shows a vast universe billions of years old. Is that to say that someday a creator is not found? Certainly not, but it's highly unlikely to be the creator worship by Christians, Jews and Muslims.

 

[Agoraphobic]

What I mean by "firm faith" here relates to Christian beliefs and practice during their "Dark Ages" in which non-believers will burn for eternity in the fires of hell. Christian societies (at least some) have changed very much, especially since WW2 and the Americal Civil Rights Movement. Their concerns now are more secular and have to deal with social issues like gay activism, abortion and female clergy or priests.

That video clip is what I would call relgious-centrism. It's for other people(s) to deal with. I am not concerned about that so long as I am not caught in the midst of it.

Cheers!

You are not clear what your use of 'firm faith' meant. Secondly, good for one almost always turned out to be not good for others whenever the abrahamic faiths are concerned. Going by recorded christianic history and current happenings related to the christians, highly likely your 'firm faith' meant to be like this pastor http://www.singsupplies.com/showthr...er-to-deface-Guan-Yin-Statute-caught-on-video!

I count myself very fortunate that my christian associates are not of 'firm faith' type, they can be flexible. I believe I would not be able to count myself fortunate when one day a 'firm faith' governor becomes the ruler of my country.

 

[Frodo]

bro, you are battling with the warp logic "I wish X were true" to "Therefore X is true" of a true christian absolutely.The bible was written from the human perspective, so God needed to to rest for one day after the 'exhaustive' creation task.

You don't know or understand doesn't mean that it must be God-did-it. There's a lot science doesn't tell us, but there's also a lot that science does indeed tell us. What science tells us so far shows no evidence of a creator. Instead it shows a vast universe billions of years old. Is that to say that someday a creator is not found? Certainly not, but it's highly unlikely to be the creator worship by Christians, Jews and Muslims.

You see the word "rest" and you think it must have to do with being exhausted? That's a wrong conclusion, especially when we are talking about God who only needed to speak the word to get things done. It means to cease from the creative activities that was taking place the previous 6 days. Why 6 days and rest 1 day? To give us the 7 day week, which has no astronomical counterpart.

The argument for God is not "we don't know so God did it". Even what we know about the world e.g. the DNA, points to there being a God. The thing to note is that atheists CANNOT explain or account for certain things about the universe using naturalistic explanation. It is just impossible. When naturalistic explanations fail, it is time to look elsewhere.

 

[Frodo]

Warp logic is being kind, it should be illogical. Faith is belief in something that cannot be proven. But we live in a society that allows freedom of worship. So, it is live and let live.

Yes, science has discoverd and explained a lot, but there is still a lot more to be explored. Whether we will find this "creator" entity or not we do not know, but discoveries (or more accurately, assumptions based on them) points in directions other than the creator described to us by the established religions. It is an exciting time to be discovering.

Cheers!

Can atheists account for the existence of the laws of logic? They can't. Atheists have to borrow from the Christian worldview to advance an argument based on logic. And you have employed the wrong definition of faith. Faith is not belief in what cannot be proven, it is trust when full knowledge is not available. For instance, for thousands of years the people of God believe by faith that the universe has a beginning as stated in Gen 1:1. Can it proven that the universe has a beginning? Of course it can. But not before the 20th century could scientists say the universe had a beginning. Scientific facts will not contradict the Bible. Yes, there is more to be explored, but why? How come we can explore the universe? It is because the universe displays a marvelous sense of order, and we as humans are created with rational minds that can discover the order in the universe. This all points to intelligent design. The more we know, the more we should give thanks to God who created the universe. What we know is only a tiny speck of the vast universe God made, a testimony to how great God is!

 

[Frodo]

What I mean by "firm faith" here relates to Christian beliefs and practice during their "Dark Ages" in which non-believers will burn for eternity in the fires of hell. Christian societies (at least some) have changed very much, especially since WW2 and the Americal Civil Rights Movement. Their concerns now are more secular and have to deal with social issues like gay activism, abortion and female clergy or priests.

That video clip is what I would call relgious-centrism. It's for other people(s) to deal with. I am not concerned about that so long as I am not caught in the midst of it.

Cheers!

The way Christians have held to the Bible truths may have changed over time, but truths never change. And that's the nature of truth. That nonbelievers will face an eternity without God may be unpleasant and offensive to nonbelievers, but that's also the nature of truth if that's the truth. You see, if nonbelievers want to say that the Bible is purely invented by man, then how come these unpleasant truths are still there and not changed to make it more pleasant for those who reject the Bible? Why not change the Bible to say that everyone will go to heaven regardless of how they live and what they believe? Since critics assume that it is so easy to invent the Bible, it must be just as easy to change it to suit the whims of people today, just as it supposedly did then. So what's stopping anyone? Can you explain and account for it?