The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it

[frenchbriefs]

I would have been happy to have seen some real action during my NS days. I've stared death in the face before and conflict would simply have been one more experience of living on the edge.

living on the edge,lmao i dont think u have ever gone beyond 90mph in ur toyota hyflux,let alone lived on the edge.people who lived on the edge dont live in new zealand and frolick with sheep in the grassy fields.

 

[Leongsam]

living on the edge,lmao i dont think u have ever gone beyond 90mph in ur toyota hyflux,let alone lived on the edge.people who lived on the edge dont live in new zealand and frolick with sheep in the grassy fields.

I've done my time. I've earned the right to frolic.

 

[virus]

Must congrats you also. If not for his mati the traffic here would not increase.

 

[Leongsam]

Must congrats you also. If not for his mati the traffic here would not increase.

Yeah the more dead soldiers the better.

 

[virus]

Better if ramseth also return after scroobal

 

[frenchbriefs]

I've done my time. I've earned the right to frolic.

u done ur time as a giggolo for the Royal Dutch navy?

 

[Leongsam]

u done ur time as a giggolo for the Royal Dutch navy?

Sounds like an interesting job where do I apply?

 

[frenchbriefs]

Sounds like an interesting job where do I apply?

try the PSA ports.

 

[mojito]

Alamak. So "summarily trialed" means that same summary trial where you march into some office in number 4 and pay $50 for skippng IPPT? If only our courts are this efficient the judges could all have good breakfasts everyday!

 

[yahoo55]

MINDEF is also so secretive about the exact compensation dollar amount to the dead boy's family, even though the family as well as TODAY newspaper have asked MINDEF to inform the public what is the exact compensation amount.

 

[Leongsam]

MINDEF is also so secretive about the exact compensation dollar amount to the dead boy's family, even though the family as well as TODAY newspaper have asked MINDEF to inform the public what is the exact compensation amount.

Someone who is so weak that he's killed by a harmless smoke grenade can't be worth very much.

 

[winnipegjets]

Someone who is so weak that he's killed by a harmless smoke grenade can't be worth very much.

He may worth nothing to you but he is definitely worth alot to the family. The family needs to prove that the son is worth fighting for.

 

[hofmann]

When I was in the army there was no limit. We threw them like there was no tomorrow. It was great fun. Nobody died. I can't even remember anyone being adversely affected in any way whatsoever.

Smoke grenades are very safe when used in out in the open because the smoke dissipates rapidly.

The soldier died because he was allergic to zinc chloride fumes. It is quite possible that he would have kicked the bucket even if 2 had been used. Someone who is allergic to bee venom can die from a single sting whereas most of us would just treat a bee sting as a minor inconvenience.

You cannot blame the MINDEF for the defective genes of ONE individual soldier. If anything it his parents who are responsible for his genetic make up. They produced him.

The soldier died because an officer disregarded and breached TSR. IF exposure to Zinc chloride fumes is not a health risk, why bother with a 2 grenade limit? why not let them throw dozens instead?

Zinc chloride fume has occupational exposure limits set, as the Occupational Safety and Health Administration and the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health have both set limits at 1 mg/m3 over an eight time-weighted average. A short-term exposure limit for exposure is set at 2 mg/m3. An Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health exposure is set at 50 mg/m3

 

[Leongsam]

The soldier died because an officer disregarded and breached TSR. IF exposure to Zinc chloride fumes is not a health risk, why bother with a 2 grenade limit? why not let them throw dozens instead?

Zinc chloride fume has occupational exposure limits set, as the Occupational Safety and Health Administration and the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health have both set limits at 1 mg/m3 over an eight time-weighted average. A short-term exposure limit for exposure is set at 2 mg/m3. An Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health exposure is set at 50 mg/m3

Almost EVERYTHING is dangerous in high doses including common components of daily life eg salt, sugar and carbon dioxide and I already pointed out that smoke grenades used in an open space dissipate so quickly that 99.99999% of humans have no issues.

Millions of smoke grenades have been let off by the SAF since its inception and nobody died during my watch or anyone else's either till this case cropped up.

This soldier, by failing to declare his condition, has cost MINDEF a lot of wasted time and effort. If MINDEF was not compassionate they'd be pursuing costs from the parents of the deceased.

They should thank their lucky stars they aren't being presented with a bill for the costs involved in this whole investigation. It has wasted hundreds of man hours and caused undue stress for the officers concerned. They are the ones I feel for.

 

[Leongsam]

He may worth nothing to you but he is definitely worth alot to the family. The family needs to prove that the son is worth fighting for.

He may well be worth a lot to the family but that sort of worth cannot be converted into monetary terms.

 

[tonychat]

Why sinkie so weak nowadays??? beside being ball-less..

During my time, i purposely failed IPPT when i found out how fucked up PAP ( why served when you have a lowlife fucked up ball-less sinkie incompetent losers who run the country) is and also dare to risk DB by not going for IPPT training weekly.. just a $50 fine and save me all the time wasting and trouble.

I have planned to pay the fine in all 10 cent coins but they only accept nets..wahahhahah

I think now those ball-less sinkie losers do not even dare to do that..wahahhahaha....

The officer see my training records is all fucking blank..he just smile..well... sometime people are just too smart, wtf can they do???


the army is the best place to practise civil disobedience.. try it..it is fun.. you can see those stupid people in charge with the fuck sinkie look on their face when the whole bunch of us dun give a fuck towards them.

There is one time.. the stupid cock sinkie officer ask the whole bunch to donate blood as the blood van is here. After he finished the boring brainwashing speech, the whole lot of them just shouted and all of them get out of the hall without even one registered for it..

wahahhahaha.... This is civil disobedience for you, going against PAP propaganda..I come from an environment where people got balls and are alpha males... knn..i see so many gu niang men around now especially in this forum. stupid and gu niang..

 

[Onitsuka]

the army is the best place to practise civil disobedience.. try it..it is fun.. you can see those stupid people in charge with the fuck sinkie look on their face when the whole bunch of us dun give a fuck towards them.

There is one time.. the stupid cock sinkie officer ask the whole bunch to donate blood as the blood van is here. After he finished the boring brainwashing speech, the whole lot of them just shouted and all of them get out of the hall without even one registered for it..

wahahhahaha.... This is civil disobedience for you, going against PAP propaganda..I come from an environment where people got balls and are alpha males... knn..i see so many gu niang men around now especially in this forum. stupid and gu niang..

Now I know what you have embraced MGTOW. It's an extension of Civil Disobedience. Wait a minute ! That makes all sinkies ... Manginas !!!

 

[hofmann]

Almost EVERYTHING is dangerous in high doses including common components of daily life eg salt, sugar and carbon dioxide and I already pointed out that smoke grenades used in an open space dissipate so quickly that 99.99999% of humans have no issues.

Millions of smoke grenades have been let off by the SAF since its inception and nobody died during my watch or anyone else's either till this case cropped up.

This soldier, by failing to declare his condition, has cost MINDEF a lot of wasted time and effort. If MINDEF was not compassionate they'd be pursuing costs from the parents of the deceased.

They should thank their lucky stars they aren't being presented with a bill for the costs involved in this whole investigation. It has wasted hundreds of man hours and caused undue stress for the officers concerned. They are the ones I feel for.

1) Sam - the smoke grenades were used to smoke out an enclosed environment, probably FIBUA exercise. here is mindef's statement from 2012:

First, on PTE Lee Rui Feng Dominique Sarron, the main substantive findings from the COI report on PTE Lee. On 17 Apr 2012, PTE Lee participated in an exercise at the Murai Urban Training Facility at Lim Chu Kang. Smoke grenades were thrown outside a building. PTE Lee entered one of the rooms of that building, and experienced breathing difficulties after exposure to the smoke. He was immediately accompanied away from the smoke but lost consciousness outside the building. He received Cardio Pulmonary Resuscitation on the spot and was evacuated in a safety vehicle to the Sungei Gedong Medical Centre, before being sent to the National University Hospital (NUH) in an SAF ambulance. Resuscitative efforts by an SAF medical officer continued throughout the journey and at NUH. The COI found that "the medical aid rendered was timely, adequate and proper". Regrettably however, PTE Lee was pronounced dead after these attempts failed.

Cause of Death
The cause of death was certified by the forensic pathologist of the Health Sciences Authority (HSA) to be due to an "acute allergic reaction to zinc chloride due to inhalation of zinc chloride fumes". Zinc chloride is a primary component of smoke grenades currently used in the SAF.

Safety Breach
The COI found that the number of smoke grenades used in the exercise exceeded the limit specified in training safety regulations. The Training Safety Regulations, or TSR, stipulate that the minimum distance between each thrown smoke grenade should be not less than 20m and that the minimum distance between troops and the thrown smoke grenade should not be less than 10m. Based on the exercise layout, not more than two smoke grenades should have been used, but the Platoon Commander had thrown six grenades instead. The COI opined that "if the TSR had been complied with, PTE Lee and his platoon mates would not have been subjected to smoke that was as dense as that during the incident, and... for as long as they were during the incident" and that "reduced exposure to smoke would have reduced the risks of any adverse reactions to the smoke." The COI concluded that "the cause of death of PTE Lee resulted from inhalation of the fumes from the smoke grenades used in the incident".

2. His asthmatic condition is probably irrelevant to his death, as admitted by mindef:

Other considerations - Asthma
PTE Lee's pre-enlistment medical screening records revealed that he had a history of asthma. The COI found that PTE Lee’s medical classification and vocational assignment were appropriate, based on the severity and control of his asthma condition. The COI was unable to establish with certainty if PTE Lee’s history of asthma was a contributory factor to his death. First, the COI noted that the specific effects of zinc chloride fumes on asthmatics had not been reported in medical literature. Second, adverse reactions to zinc chloride can occur even in individuals without asthma. Third, other platoon mates with asthma had developed only mild symptoms after the exposure to the zinc chloride fumes in the same exercise.

3. it is very clear his death resulted from over exposure to dangerous levels of zinc chloride fumes for an extended period of time. this hazardous concentration is directly caused by the officer who threw SIX instead of Two in the vicinity of the building.

4. it is undisputable that zinc chloride in high concentrations will prove lethal. the officer deliberately created such a scenario in an enclosed building. In a civilian court, he could be charged for culpable homicide. instead, he gets a promotion.

 

[tonychat]

Now I know what you have embraced MGTOW. It's an extension of Civil Disobedience. Wait a minute ! That makes all sinkies ... Manginas !!!

Ball-lessn sinkies do not know that they have so much power on their own... All fucking brainwashwd by media, school and NS.. The media, school and NS are the best place to display your civil disobedience..

I suggest you guys to go buy GPS jammer for your ass because they are going to screw your ass using GPS soon.. Get ready to bend down ball-less sinkie losers.

 

[scroobal]

You actually provided the answer in an earlier thread. When it comes to smoke grenade and other ammo they will expend as much as they can for number of reason that you mentioned and for other training reasons as well. One cannot also rule our the often cited reason that an appropriate smoke screen needed to created and just 2 or 3 might not have the effect.It is the practice and culture from 1967. I am sure if you subpoenaed every trainer form 1967, they will give you the same answers.

The poor chap had an allergic reaction and no else had the same reaction. It was unfortunate. It will not be fair to drag the 2 officer for something which many of us did when we conducted training. If this was an exception, I have no qualms about charging these 2 captains to the hilt.

Obscenities free version

There is a good reason why BG Chan did not reveal what the punishment for those two officers were and why MINDEF has remain very secretive about it. It would shatter the family and shock the public that MINDEF allowed these two officers to get away with nothing more than a light tap on their wrists. Let me explain.

In trying to mislead and deceive the public with technicalities and duplicities, BG Chan stated this in his Facebook statement:

"The SAF has however taken administrative and disciplinary action against the two officers. While the CI and COI did not find that the two officers were directly responsible for PTE Lee’s death, the two officers were summarily tried in 2013 for negligent performance of lawful order or duty, found guilty, and punished according to military law."​

Note the phrase "summarily tried". A "summary trial", contrary to media reports, is not a General Court Martial (GCM). Those two were not "court martialled". They were "summarily tried".

Those who have been charged or have charged soldiers in a "summary trial" will know that the accused will be marched into the JDO's (Junior Disciplinary Officer - Company Commander) or SDO's (Senior Disciplinary Officer - Battalion Commander or Commanding Officer of School) office by their CSM/RSM. Next the JDO/SDO will read the charges out, ask the accused whether he wants to be tried by him (JDO/SDO) or have his case heard at the next higher level. If the accused elects to be heard by the JDO/SDO, he will then be asked whether he pleads guilty to the charges. The accused can elect not to plead guilty and have the case referred all the way up. But nobody in his right mind will do so as the punishment meted out during a summary trial is a whole lot lenient and there is a limit to the type and "severity" of punishment that can be meted out. The accused is then told of his punishment and marched out of the office by the CSM/RSM.

As these two are Officers holding the ranks of Captain, their summary trial cannot be held before a JDO or SDO but can only be held before their Superior Commander (Brigade Commander or equivalent for schools). But the rest is similar, being marched into the personal office of their Superior Commander, having the charges read out, etc.



So there you have it. The "punishment" of these two for the needless death of a soldier and why MINDEF and BG Chan have been very secretive about it.