The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it

[PTADER]

Obscenities free version

There is a good reason why BG Chan did not reveal what the punishment for those two officers were and why MINDEF has remain very secretive about it. It would shatter the family and shock the public that MINDEF allowed these two officers to get away with nothing more than a light tap on their wrists. Let me explain.

In trying to mislead and deceive the public with technicalities and duplicities, BG Chan stated this in his Facebook statement:

"The SAF has however taken administrative and disciplinary action against the two officers. While the CI and COI did not find that the two officers were directly responsible for PTE Lee’s death, the two officers were summarily tried in 2013 for negligent performance of lawful order or duty, found guilty, and punished according to military law."​

Note the phrase "summarily tried". A "summary trial", contrary to media reports, is not a General Court Martial (GCM). Those two were not "court martialled". They were "summarily tried".

Those who have been charged or have charged soldiers in a "summary trial" will know that the accused will be marched into the JDO's (Junior Disciplinary Officer - Company Commander) or SDO's (Senior Disciplinary Officer - Battalion Commander or Commanding Officer of School) office by their CSM/RSM. Next the JDO/SDO will read the charges out, ask the accused whether he wants to be tried by him (JDO/SDO) or have his case heard at the next higher level. If the accused elects to be heard by the JDO/SDO, he will then be asked whether he pleads guilty to the charges. The accused can elect not to plead guilty and have the case referred all the way up. But nobody in his right mind will do so as the punishment meted out during a summary trial is a whole lot lenient and there is a limit to the type and "severity" of punishment that can be meted out. The accused is then told of his punishment and marched out of the office by the CSM/RSM.

As these two are Officers holding the ranks of Captain, their summary trial cannot be held before a JDO or SDO but can only be held before their Superior Commander (Brigade Commander or equivalent for schools). But the rest is similar, being marched into the personal office of their Superior Commander, having the charges read out, etc.

The type of punishment that can be meted out by their SC as spelt out in the SAF Act (Cap 295) are:

Powers of punishment of superior commander

70.—(1) A superior commander may upon conviction of an accused who is an officer below the rank of lieutenant-colonel or a warrant officer impose any one of the following punishments:

(a) forfeiture of seniority of rank and forfeiture of all or any part of his service for purposes of promotion;
(b) a fine not exceeding —​

(i) in the case of officers who are of the rank of captain or major, a sum of $1,000 ; and
(ii) in the case of officers below the rank of captain and of warrant officers, a sum of $500 ; or​

(c)reprimand.​

(2) In addition to or in lieu of any other punishment, the superior commander may order that the accused shall suffer any deduction from his ordinary pay authorised by this Act.

​

That's all these two got as punishment for their negligence which resulted in the death of a soldier. Either a fine not exceeding $1,000 or a delayed promotion in future or a "reprimand" (verbal or written) and a salary deduction if deemed to be warranted by the SC. The "administrative action" would refer to their removal from the positions they held at that point of time to another position.

So there you have it. The "punishment" of these two for the needless death of a soldier and why MINDEF and BG Chan have been very secretive about it.

 

[Leongsam]

They were let off lightly because in reality there is absolutely nothing wrong with throwing a bit more smoke than is necessary.

The fact that nobody else was adversely affected by the extra smoke proves that it was a minor issue. The only victim was an idiot who tried to pretend he was fit and healthy when he was actually defective.

 

[Narong Wongwan]

Col. Jessel: You can't handle the truth!*

Col. Jessep: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
Kaffee: Did you order the Code Red?
Col. Jessep: I did the job I...
Kaffee: *Did you order the Code Red?*
Col. Jessep: *You're Goddamn right I did!*

 

[winnipegjets]

They were let off lightly because in reality there is absolutely nothing wrong with throwing a bit more smoke than is necessary.

Except that in this case, a soldier died because of the excessive fumes from those grenades.

The fact that nobody else was adversely affected by the extra smoke proves that it was a minor issue. The only victim was an idiot who tried to pretend he was fit and healthy when he was actually defective.

He pretended to be fit and healthy? That was an assertion made by a sycophantic coroner that was NOT tested in court.
Every person reacts differently to the inhalation; it was the responsibility of the officers to ensure that the training was conducted safely for ALL, not for some.

 

[frenchbriefs]

They were let off lightly because in reality there is absolutely nothing wrong with throwing a bit more smoke than is necessary.

The fact that nobody else was adversely affected by the extra smoke proves that it was a minor issue. The only victim was an idiot who tried to pretend he was fit and healthy when he was actually defective.

if the reccomended dosage is two and somebody threw six,dont u think thats a bit excessive?six is three hundred percent above the recommended limit.....the next time u buy some over the counter medication,like aspirin or panadol why dont u take six tablets instead of two every eight hours?after all u are perfectly healthy and have no preexisting condition u should be better than fine......next time u order a espresso at starbucks,ask the barista to add three times the normal amount of sugar,next time u order some french fries from mcdonalds tell them to give the salt shaker another five or six good shakes.

 

[Leongsam]

Except that in this case, a soldier died because of the excessive fumes from those grenades.


He pretended to be fit and healthy? That was an assertion made by a sycophantic coroner that was NOT tested in court.
Every person reacts differently to the inhalation; it was the responsibility of the officers to ensure that the training was conducted safely for ALL, not for some.

Nobody else was adversely affected so this proves that the levels of zinc chloride were far below what might be considered toxic.

It is the responsibilty of a military unit to ensure that training is conducted so that it best represents the scenarios which the unit will face during times of war.

It is unfortunate that there will be some soldiers who cannot withstand the rigors of training will fall by the wayside but that's life.

 

[Leongsam]

if the reccomended dosage is two and somebody threw six,dont u think thats a bit excessive?six is three hundred percent above the recommended limit.....the next time u buy some over the counter medication,like aspirin or panadol why dont u take six tablets instead of two every eight hours?after all u are perfectly healthy and have no preexisting condition u should be better than fine......next time u order a espresso at starbucks,ask the barista to add three times the normal amount of sugar,next time u order some french fries from mcdonalds tell them to give the salt shaker another five or six good shakes.

When I was in the army there was no limit. We threw them like there was no tomorrow. It was great fun. Nobody died. I can't even remember anyone being adversely affected in any way whatsoever.

Smoke grenades are very safe when used in out in the open because the smoke dissipates rapidly.

The soldier died because he was allergic to zinc chloride fumes. It is quite possible that he would have kicked the bucket even if 2 had been used. Someone who is allergic to bee venom can die from a single sting whereas most of us would just treat a bee sting as a minor inconvenience.

You cannot blame the MINDEF for the defective genes of ONE individual soldier. If anything it his parents who are responsible for his genetic make up. They produced him.

 

[frenchbriefs]

When I was in the army there was no limit. We threw them like there was no tomorrow. It was great fun. Nobody died. I can't even remember anyone being adversely affected in any way whatsoever.

Smoke grenades are very safe when used in out in the open because the smoke dissipates rapidly.

The soldier died because he was allergic to zinc chloride fumes. It is quite possible that he would have kicked the bucket even if 2 had been used. Someone who is allergic to bee venom can die from a single sting whereas most of us would just treat a bee sting as a minor inconvenience.

You cannot blame the MINDEF for the defective genes of ONE individual soldier. If anything it his parents who are responsible for his genetic make up. They produced him.

whatever u do of ur own free will is none of our business,nobody cares if u kill or injure urself out of stupidity,as long as u dont hurt the public or endager lives or cause any damage.in america if u decide u want to pack 1000 fire sparklers into a can and set it on fire,or make ur own homemade napalm bomb,thats ur own perogative.

this soldier's life and safety and the other men is the superior's ultimate responsibility....do not talk about serving the country and protecting civilians if u cant even be responsible for ur men's lives and welfare.if this soldier's death is of no consequence,then everything we do,this so called military is nothing but a farce and a charade.

 

[Leongsam]

whatever u do of ur own free will is none of our business,nobody cares if u kill or injure urself out of stupidity,as long as u dont hurt the public or endager lives or cause any damage.in america if u decide u want to pack 1000 fire sparklers into a can and set it on fire,or make ur own homemade napalm bomb,thats ur own perogative.

this soldier's life and safety and the other men is the superior's ultimate responsibility....do not talk about serving the country and protecting civilians if u cant even be responsible for ur men's lives and welfare.if this soldier's death is of no consequence,then everything we do,this so called military is nothing but a farce and a charade.

Training would be a farce and a charade if it was dumbed down to the point of being absolutely risk free. It needs to go beyond the boundaries on a regular basis in order to inject realism and make it worthwhile. Otherwise we might as well stay home and do NS remotely from a terminal at home.

in battle scenarios the enemy is not going to follow safety regulations so trainees need to get used to this fact.

 

[frenchbriefs]

Training would be a farce and a charade if it was dumbed down to the point of being absolutely risk free. It needs to go beyond the boundaries on a regular basis in order to inject realism and make it worthwhile. Otherwise we might as well stay home and do NS remotely from a terminal at home.

in battle scenarios the enemy is not going to follow safety regulations so trainees need to get used to this fact.

in that case why didnt u say so?should have signed up for the "realism" course when u were in NS,then ur superiors and SAF would gladly shipped ur ass off to guantanamo bay for a little "realism" training as a P.O.W.make sure u sucked that cockmeat sandwich long and hard cause we dont want ur training to be no goddam farce or charade.does geneva convention have any clauses about giving cockmeat sandwiches?dick cannot be too hard or long to prevent suffocation or breathing difficulties?

 

[Leongsam]

in that case why didnt u say so?should have signed up for the "realism" course when u were in NS,then ur superiors and SAF would gladly shipped ur ass off to guantanamo bay for a little "realism" training as a P.O.W.make sure u sucked that cockmeat sandwich long and hard cause we dont want ur training to be no goddam farce or charade.does geneva convention have any clauses about giving cockmeat sandwiches?dick cannot be too hard or long to prevent suffocation or breathing difficulties?

I am all for sending NS conscripts into real battle. It would help separate the men from the boys.

 

[winnipegjets]

I am all for sending NS conscripts into real battle. It would help separate the men from the boys.

Will you lead them to fight ISIS? They need a capable leader like you.

 

[winnipegjets]

Training would be a farce and a charade if it was dumbed down to the point of being absolutely risk free. It needs to go beyond the boundaries on a regular basis in order to inject realism and make it worthwhile. Otherwise we might as well stay home and do NS remotely from a terminal at home.

It is pointless to die during training.

in battle scenarios the enemy is not going to follow safety regulations so trainees need to get used to this fact.

Then MINDEF should throw out their safety regulations. See if parents will protest.

 

[winnipegjets]

When I was in the army there was no limit. We threw them like there was no tomorrow. It was great fun. Nobody died. I can't even remember anyone being adversely affected in any way whatsoever.

The world has changed since your days in NS. Time to move on.

Smoke grenades are very safe when used in out in the open because the smoke dissipates rapidly.

During your time, there were not many asthmatic.

The soldier died because he was allergic to zinc chloride fumes. It is quite possible that he would have kicked the bucket even if 2 had been used. Someone who is allergic to bee venom can die from a single sting whereas most of us would just treat a bee sting as a minor inconvenience.

Then he should have been exempted ...but MINDEF doesn't think respiratory problem is sufficient to exempt soldiers from combat training.

You cannot blame the MINDEF for the defective genes of ONE individual soldier. If anything it his parents who are responsible for his genetic make up. They produced him.

Of course, MINDEF is totally responsible for his death. They could have exempt him from this training.

 

[Leongsam]

Will you lead them to fight ISIS? They need a capable leader like you.

I would have been happy to have seen some real action during my NS days. I've stared death in the face before and conflict would simply have been one more experience of living on the edge.

 

[Leongsam]

The world has changed since your days in NS. Time to move on.


During your time, there were not many asthmatic.


Then he should have been exempted ...but MINDEF doesn't think respiratory problem is sufficient to exempt soldiers from combat training.



Of course, MINDEF is totally responsible for his death. They could have exempt him from this training.

I don't think respiratory problems are grounds for exemption either. Life is about survival of the fittest and the weak will fall by the wayside. It's how the world works.

The reason why there are so many asthmatics these days is because children are wrapped up on cotton wool from the day they are born. This results in an undeveloped immune system because it does not get a proper workout during the formative years of childhood.

You can't blame MINDEF for that. It is the fault of parents who shield their children from the realities of life. If children were allowed to explore, get dirty and get hurt we'd have a much tougher bunch of citizens.

 

[winnipegjets]

Nobody else was adversely affected so this proves that the levels of zinc chloride were far below what might be considered toxic.

Some people can tax higher dosage of radiation, some don't. So there is a safe level that is given.

It is the responsibilty of a military unit to ensure that training is conducted so that it best represents the scenarios which the unit will face during times of war.

Within limits.

It is unfortunate that there will be some soldiers who cannot withstand the rigors of training will fall by the wayside but that's life.

That's why there are safety regulations to minimize such unnecessary death. The officers didn't give a damn about safety regulations and for that, they deserve to be charged for manslaughter.

 

[winnipegjets]

I would have been happy to have seen some real action during my NS days. I've stared death in the face before and conflict would simply have been one more experience of living on the edge.

It is not too late for you to volunteer to fight ISIS.

 

[virus]

Chey I tot you double post the article from trs that the captain was promoted to major as part of punishment

 

[Leongsam]

Chey I tot you double post the article from trs that the captain was promoted to major as part of punishment

I congratulate the Officer on his promotion. I'm sure he deserves it because he has the right attitude when it comes to training.