Thais Demonstrat a brand new form of Political Movement

[uncleyap]

I don't intent to discuss the huge subject on Democracy itself today. But I have to use the example of Thailand mentioned in this thread and Taiwan to show just one of the very serious problems of Democracy.

# Democracy is a terrible solution in the event that a strong controversy divided a nation drastically, that regardless of result of repeated polls, the people will still strongly oppose each other and with strong wills want to fight all the way paying huge long term price including lives.

e.g. Thailand's current situation.
e.g. Taiwan's independence issue.

Democracy is workable only in the opposite situation, where by conflicts are not so intense, and compromise were acceptable and could last sufficiently well. After a democratic process e.g. poll the minority compromised and accepted the majority in peace.

Peace is another aspect.

In the event that people are neither willing to pay the price of blood and death, nor settle their strong disagreements with each other for the long term. Instability will become LONG LASTING CRISIS, and people will have to spent huge total amount of resources just to fight each other.

In some cases more than half the nation's GDP will go into internal fighting e.g. Harmas / Hisbollah, in other cases huge proportion of GDP can go into the same thing for many decades - East / West Germany & North / South Korea & India / Pakistan / Sri Lanka / Bangladesh.

Comparatively, Chinese settled between KMT / Communist in a relatively shorter time in control of mainland via a civil war, costing lives & blood but less in total length of time and accumulated GDP. In comparison, PRC + Taiwan had in all these decades accumulated much more in total GDP spent in effort of re-unification with Taiwan than the brief civil war with KMT to control mainland.

My point here is: Democracy & Peace can become long lasting plus costly pains in the ass as well, thus I don't blindly believe in these ideas, pros & cons exists and it is untrue to say that Democracy & Peace are definitely right or preferable, it really depends.

Some disputes are never settled and peace imposed in certain places such as region around Jerusalem are just time awaiting for the next war.

I may view war & peace similar to Yin 阴 & Yang 阳, they co-exist in rotation, taking different places (like days & nights on different sides of planet earth) one can never replace another, one can never substitute another, and none can exist alone for eternity. There isn't anything too wrong about war nor anything absolutely right about peace, and confusion as well as argument exist because only of limited minds of human.

In this fight I think I am driven by warm and passioned heart but applying hard cold and brutal tactics. Chinese say 本菩萨心肠施霹雳手段。 According to what I learn from Chinese history, this is necessary and I know no other way that will work more effectively.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

What "hurt" true proper actual concrete "hurt" have you allegedly caused to the LKY and PAP government, apart from your delusional incendiary rhetoric? Nada, zilch, zippo, zero. Where are your "warm bodies" and $$$ backing? You bark and bark and bark but there appears to be no actual bite.

I
I am prepared to give famiLEE LEEgime what they can not afford to take, and they avoid to give me the opportunity. I am prepared to cause them hurt which is more than what they can do to hurt me.

What rubbish. Did Dr Chee and Chee Siok Chin "apologise"? Did JBJ "apologise" before them? LKY appears to sue under such circumstances to "fix" his opponent and scare off other potential opponents. The fact that LKY has not sued you raises the same questions that were dealt with in the thread about you and your possible agendas.

If famiLEE LEEgime thinks I would appologize to them like the 10 SDP CEC members, then they will also sue me. There is nothing more simple than this.

The question is what have you really truly achieved in real concrete terms? zero.

That I will not be stopped regardless what they could do to others.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

What has "tiny" got to do with it. It is all about ground realities. Look at the Maldives where the population is a fraction of Singapore's population. Why did the Maldives electorate recently boot out the longest serving president in asia and replace him with a former political exile who is only 40 years of age?

To re-cap, why aren't you and/or SDP attracting the local "warm bodies" and $$$?

One clear reason is red dot is tiny.

What is your version of answer? What are you trying to say?

 

[uncleyap]

:p:p:p

You are entitled to your own calculations. I don't care about that and what ever you believe will never affect me.



I am not interested to argue what you put out of perspective, you don't seem to understand what I had posted and I don't border to explain.

===

You seem to be assuming that I was counting to attract money or whatever your called warm body, I don't care what you were assuming cold corpse or anything. You continue to assume anything. I am not going to explain.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

PAD appears to be even more hypocritical and selfish than Thaksin's group. Just look at PAD's acronym = People's Alliance for Democracy. PAD claims to stand for "democracy" but in fact want to disenfranchise the political power of the majority thai peasants.

Unless PAD stands for generally sharing political power and providing reasonable fair practical equity to the majority thai peasants than PAD is probably worse than Thaksin's group who have at the very least provided real tangible benefits to the majority thai peasants. Thus far all PAD has shown is self interest and thirst for political power and protection of its group's wealth at the expense of the majority thai peasants.

PAD is not Thug-Sin.

Your rhetoric is worthless. Look at history and facts. Under "communist fighters" which group suffered the most? The majority peasants while the top commies enjoyed and exploited all trappings and worse still inflicted genocide and other atocities. Mao, Stalin, Kim, Pol Pot etc.

Like I said before there is no such thing as a perfect pure world, and we all only have one life to lead. What then is of fundamental importance is to try and improve and raise the standard of living of the majority of people in a society or at least start the ball rolling by delivering real tangible benefits i.e. good governance.

Political revolutions and reforms which do not lead to general relative practical reasonable good governance is worthless and that is why what you stand for, Yap Keng Ho, is indeed worthless and thank goodness few if any Singaporeans take you seriously apart from yourself

Communists are made up by Workers & Farmers themselves who joined revolution and fought against wealthy and dominance merchants + rulers - bastards such as Thug-Sin & famiLEE. Therefore regardless how you can say communism failed etc, the communist are the only real fighters for the farmers & peasants because THEY ARE THESE EXPLOITED PEASANTS THEMSELVES.

My whole point is Thug-Sin is NOT the real fighter for the poor Thai peasants, he really is what the peasants should better recognize and realize as their true enemy, complete exploiter and con-man. If the simple rural peasants want to stand up and fight they should either take reference from communists or Maoists or people's power or democratic route or Polish Anti-Communism route (aka Lech Wałęsa<!-- end HTML --> ) but they should never never never be led by a Capitalism Business Tycoon Exploiter Con-man such as Thug-Sin.:

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Bloody cheek. Easy for you to talk since you obviously have your own finances or perhaps someone is financing your dubious antics, who knows?

Peasants need to eke out a living, need to be provided opportunities, to be given cheap healthcare etc. Thaksin's government provided this to some extent, never seen before or since by any other Thai government.

More importantly Thaksin enfranchised the majority thai peasants with political power, denied to them by previous Thai governments and something that PAD seeks to take away from them now.

Yes yes yes!

Enough? Yes Thai peasants had been given some honey by Thug-Sin, so what?

 

[think_lees]

Did Dr Chee and Chee Siok Chin "apologise"?

These are imperfect things LKY did not want to see from his lawsuit. What he want to see is other than these 2.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

So what are your so called "practical reforms"? Why should ordinary Singaporeans sit up and take you seriously?

I already made it clear that I refuse to hold flags for Democracy & Human Rights, because these noble ideas are too much burdens for practical reform. Democracy is too idealistic while seriously flawed due to it's neglect of impure human nature such as cowardice and selfishness and greed.

 

[uncleyap]

Under "communist fighters" which group suffered the most?

During the war sure there will be sufferings. After the wars, huge lands occupied by wealthy capitalists such as Thug-Sin will be divided to the farmers & peasants. The thugs will be liquidated, no longer able to exploit peasants. This is the general ways of peasants revolts, regardless weather led by communist or any peasants from the lower and oppressed levels.

Whole point is NEVER is such a revolution led by a Telecom Tycoon Billionaire such as Thug-Sin. NEVER!

I am not going to argue with your western anti-communism craps.:p

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

You can't "fight" human nature, Yap Keng Ho, and that in effect is what you are trying to do.

I am against corrupt, and I will not forgive that.

I fight against Greed; Selfishness; Cowardice; Falsehood & Exploitations. I fight to Eliminate and Punish such bastards.

I refuse to hold flags for Democracy & Human Rights, because those noble ideas meant forgiving the bastards and don't brutalize them.

In reality such leaders do not really exist, only in parables, myths and biased historical accounts. It goes against the very grain of human nature. There shall always exist a tension a pull and push force to try and achieve a balance of sorts in any society to try and achieve reasonable harmony amongst all sectors of that society. That is why institutionalisation of government bodies is probably a key factor to moving towards good governance, that and accountability and transparency.

If there were Selfless; Brave; Truthful and Public Serving Dictators, I will be willing to consider to accept them. Are there such dictators? Yes! .

But "fight" to achieve exactly what in practical reasonable concrete terms? And at what expense? Who pay the real painful price for your so called "fight"? Is your so called "fight" really worth it based on current local ground realities?

I have said thsi before and I shall say this again, "do not throw out the baby with the bathwater". That is what you appear to be doing with your so called "fight".

Today's reality is so different such that beside standing up and fight, there is no alternative.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

It all comes back to human nature not being perfect and that there is no such thing as utopia in real life.

The problem with your 'ideology' is that you do not think past the revolution/reform aspect and also do not consider whether your call for revolution/reform is appropriate, rational and justified for the society as a whole given all the ground realities.

Btw I too at times have my doubts about the effectiveness of democracy when I travel and work in various parts of region and the west. I have always been drawn to Plato's "philosopher king" after reading Plato as a student many years ago. However I have also realised through the years that such a system of governance i.e. "philosopher king" is in reality unachievable and unsustainable over the long term.

We got to work with what we have and make the best of it given the circumstances.

I don't intent to discuss the huge subject on Democracy itself today. But I have to use the example of Thailand mentioned in this thread and Taiwan to show just one of the very serious problems of Democracy.

[In this fight I think I am driven by warm and passioned heart but applying hard cold and brutal tactics. Chinese say 本菩萨心肠施霹雳手段。 According to what I learn from Chinese history, this is necessary and I know no other way that will work more effectively.[/B]
[/COLOR]

 

[uncleyap]

You can't "fight" human nature, Yap Keng Ho, and that in effect is what you are trying to do.

I will do what I had been inspired set out to do.:p Weather Human or Devil I will fight them.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

What I say are not "assumptions", "perspectives" or my "own calculations". Thay are general facts clear to one and all who care to open their eyes and see and face the real truth of the actual ground realities.

All you have on the otherhand, Yap Keng Ho, is mere incendiary idealistic rhetoric, which at the end of the day is worthless.

"Warm bodies" means actual mass turn out support by ordinary Singaporeans. As for $$$, for any cause to stand a chance of some reasonable success one needs $$$. The above 2 are facts and reality, something which you have no clue about.

You are entitled to your own calculations. I don't care about that and what ever you believe will never affect me.



I am not interested to argue what you put out of perspective, you don't seem to understand what I had posted and I don't border to explain.

===

You seem to be assuming that I was counting to attract money or whatever your called warm body, I don't care what you were assuming cold corpse or anything. You continue to assume anything. I am not going to explain.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

You persistently refuse to acknowledge documented recorded factual history. Who is talking about "during the war"? I am talking about the time Mao, Stalin, Kim, Pol Pot etc had already cemented power and were ruling. That is when millions of innocent ordinary citizens perished because of genocide and atrocities committed by these commie governments in the false name of standing up for the peasants, while the top commie leaders enjoyed and exploited the trappings of power. It is all recoreded in black and white and you cannot run away from the truth of the abysmal failure of communist rule.

Just going by 20th Century history, "Peasant revolts" rarely if ever provide real concrete fruits/benefits to the peasants themselves. So what is the point of such "peasant revolts" if the peasants themselves do not benefit in the sustainable long term? This is one the points I am trying to make you.

During the war sure there will be sufferings. After the wars, huge lands occupied by wealthy capitalists such as Thug-Sin will be divided to the farmers & peasants. The thugs will be liquidated, no longer able to exploit peasants. This is the general ways of peasants revolts, regardless weather led by communist or any peasants from the lower and oppressed levels.

I am neither western nor eastern in outlook nor anti-communist or pro-communist. I look for good governance on a long term sustainable basis. Any model that can reasonable achieve good governance I am willing to consider. Thus far it is clear from history that communism does not work.

I am not going to argue with your western anti-communism craps.

 

[uncleyap]

It all comes back to human nature not being perfect and that there is no such thing as utopia in real life.

The problem with your 'ideology' is that you do not think past the revolution/reform aspect and also do not consider whether your call for revolution/reform is appropriate, rational and justified for the society as a whole given all the ground realities.

Btw I too at times have my doubts about the effectiveness of democracy when I travel and work in various parts of region and the west. I have always been drawn to Plato's "philosopher king" after reading Plato as a student many years ago. However I have also realised through the years that such a system of governance i.e. "philosopher king" is in reality unachievable and unsustainable over the long term.

We got to work with what we have and make the best of it given the circumstances.

I already said prices must be paid, and those paying this price for Singapore have to be honored later. Don't stop nor slow down just because you see some short term pains and sufferings. You should be driven and set out to do this to eliminate or reduce sufferings in Longer Term, that is 菩萨心肠。 But you should apply cold hard merciless hands to fight, 霹雳手段 that is.

I will not baby this and baby that like most others. Babies must not be pampered too much, should subject them to survival in reality, subject them to natural selection, that only fittest will survive. This is my Darwinism faith.

One thing that I disagree with Singaporean culture is babies had became too precious and spoiled. They became so useless and unfit even if they were helped to grow up, and the better ones among them then don't get the advantages which they should get. The unfit ones, are artificially made to survive to take away opportunities and resources from the better ones, so the over nation is weakened & burdened.

The brutal primitive form of strength is completely lacked in Singapore, and that is the weakest spot of red dot. The "human nature" is very poorly balanced, and mostly flaws are showing up, strengths are nearly not seen here.

 

[scroobal]

If famiLEE LEEgime thinks I would appologize to them like the 10 SDP CEC members, then they will also sue me. There is nothing more simple than this.
:

When did the Lee clan seek your apology? Now you are really telling lies.

I don't think you should spread falsehoods and give the impression that you actually fighting a battle with the Lees.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Then it shall probably be just you, an 'army' of one.

I will do what I had been inspired set out to do.:p Weather Human or Devil I will fight them.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Even assuming you win the 'battle', with your approach you shall lose the 'war', so why should ordinary Singaporeans give up what they currently have and join you on the eventual road to doom and failure?

I already said prices must be paid, and those paying this price for Singapore have to be honored later. Don't stop nor slow down just because you see some short term pains and sufferings. You should be driven and set out to do this to eliminate or reduce sufferings in Longer Term, that is 菩萨心肠。 But you should apply cold hard merciless hands to fight, 霹雳手段 that is.

Ironically you sound just like your nemesis, LKY Sheesh:p

I will not baby this and baby that like most others. Babies must not be pampered too much, should subject them to survival in reality, subject them to natural selection, that only fittest will survive. This is my Darwinism faith.

One thing that I disagree with Singaporean culture is babies had became too precious and spoiled. They became so useless and unfit even if they were helped to grow up, and the better ones among them then don't get the advantages which they should get. The unfit ones, are artificially made to survive to take away opportunities and resources from the better ones, so the over nation is weakened & burdened.

The brutal primitive form of strength is completely lacked in Singapore, and that is the weakest spot of red dot. The "human nature" is very poorly balanced, and mostly flaws are showing up, strengths are nearly not seen here.

 

[tun_dr_m]

When did the Lee clan seek your apology? Now you are really telling lies.

I don't think you should spread falsehoods and give the impression that you actually fighting a battle with the Lees.

You are desperate! :p

UY said "if" and you are neglecting that.

 

[scroobal]

You are desperate! :p

UY said "if" and you are neglecting that.

Care to explain what he meant by what he wrote below

"If famiLEE LEEgime thinks I would appologize to them like the 10 SDP CEC members, then they will also sue me."

Or as usual he is hijacking an event that the 10 SDP CEC members had to faced against the tyrannical and despotic old man. Why mention an event that he had nothing do with in the first place. Why did he tink that he might be asked to apologise.

May be you can explain why he has not been sued yet.

Let me know if you got any more concerns. With you helping him, there is only the despot that will applaud the simpletons.