Stop saying 66% voted for PAP when the actually figure is 33%.

[eatshitndie]

it's all about turnout and walkovers and incentives (such as funding). in the u.s., there are seldom walkovers in every level of election because the major parties (two) have both candidates and funds to contest each seat, from district to city to county to state to national. it's a billion dollar industry here, and the victors normally get more funding and donations when they get elected. the smaller parties, independent, libertarian, green, etc. do not have the candidates and funds to compete, and they are often victims of walkovers in many elections, especially at the state and national levels. when an election is hotly contested, turnout becomes a factor. the sg system has taken walkovers and low turnout to a whole new universe. but it's true that walkovers are the result of too few oppo candidates (blame it on fear perpetuated by tyranny), too little funding, too much gerrymandering, fractional opposition, and too many constituencies in such a small fucking cuntry. and walkovers contribute to low total turnout. the u.s. system is fucked up, but the sg system is royally more fucked up. if this continues, it will lead to violence in the long run - too much pent-up anger and frustration among the male citizenry - perhaps a reason why china mei mei's are let loose on the island... to suck the angry juices out of these men.

 

[Ramseth]

I suggest u read the book called To Catch a tartar by Francis Seow. In it, he details many forms of PAP intimidation on oppo members WHO have not broken the law, including bugging and wiretapping their residences. Since he has not be sued for libel, I can only assume he is right.

Yes, I've read it. I was amongst the 1st to read it in its 1st printing (had to buy in KL). I was also there in person in 1987-88 throught the saga, though I don't claim to know everything. I can only say that his recollection of events then as written in his book are more or less are the same as mine; I don't find any libelous. But yes, his case reeked of political intrigue and motives rather than any breach of the law.

By the way, i do know rank and file members of oppo parties who were intimidated and threatened by the PAP for no reason.

So what do you suggest, stay away from opposition politics to be safe?

 

[scroobal]

Thats right. We should demand it. This is one angle that Chee can use with the many contacts that he has overseas. GRCs is not democracy not matter how they guise it.

Its something that all opposition parties including the Indians and Malays must insist.

They can always set aside a few wards that require minority candidate but it does not have to be GRC. Unless they fear that their own minority can't match other minority candidate.

Only way is to go back to single wards..1 MP seat 1 ward. Maybe bigger wards but still single MP wards. But I know the cowardly kiasu PAP will not abandon the monster GRCs.

 

[scroobal]

You are certainly not getting the picture.

By and large, I think that the 66% is a fair representation of PAP votes although only 33% of eligible voters really voted. If there were sufficient opposition candidates across all wards, there would be at most a variance of +/- 5% of 66%.

 

[scroobal]

Have to agtree with you, in the long run, it will not be a pretty sight.

it's all about turnout and walkovers and incentives (such as funding). in the u.s., there are seldom walkovers in every level of election because the major parties (two) have both candidates and funds to contest each seat, from district to city to county to state to national. it's a billion dollar industry here, and the victors normally get more funding and donations when they get elected. the smaller parties, independent, libertarian, green, etc. do not have the candidates and funds to compete, and they are often victims of walkovers in many elections, especially at the state and national levels. when an election is hotly contested, turnout becomes a factor. the sg system has taken walkovers and low turnout to a whole new universe. but it's true that walkovers are the result of too few oppo candidates (blame it on fear perpetuated by tyranny), too little funding, too much gerrymandering, fractional opposition, and too many constituencies in such a small fucking cuntry. and walkovers contribute to low total turnout. the u.s. system is fucked up, but the sg system is royally more fucked up. if this continues, it will lead to violence in the long run - too much pent-up anger and frustration among the male citizenry - perhaps a reason why china mei mei's are let loose on the island... to suck the angry juices out of these men.

 

[scroobal]

The nomination desposit is $13K and not $500 as in Aus. Bring it down to $500 and I will guarantee you that there will be stampede to stand for elections.

The PAP put up candidates in those constituencies. The oppos didn't. Whose fault is it that the people cannot vote?

 

[Ramseth]

We should not accept;
1) High nomination fees - OZ only charges 500AUD ($633) while we charge over $13K.

2) GRC must not be recognised and therefore abolished

3) Rally sites a and its use must be reasonable and not a last minute release.

4) All elections data including precint demographics must be publicly available.

1. High nomination deposit surely means a higher barrier to entry to stand as candidate. However, it also means having candidates of certain financial standing. It worked in favour the opposition too in a way. Look at GE 2006 nominations, no more 3-cornered or multi-cornered contests.

2. With more than 20 years of HDB population racial redistribution, it's getter harder and harder to argue with the GRC idea of ensuring some minority representation in Parliament. However, I think that GRC should be smaller (4 members inclusive of 1 minority) instead of the present 5 and 6. I also think the number of SMC should be increased. May I also add, any vacating of a GRC seat should precipitate a by-election for the GRC.

3. I agree. Rally sites should and could be well prepared and allocated in advance. There should be no more senseless queues and muddy fields.

4. I think that's already available. Candidates can buy the electoral map and the electoral roll, and they do, otherwise how to plan campaign?

 

[Ramseth]

The nomination desposit is $13K and not $500 as in Aus. Bring it down to $500 and I will guarantee you that there will be stampede to stand for elections.

More likely a stampede of frivolous multi-cornered contests.

 

[Ramseth]

You have not answered the question.

I'm sorry, what was the question again? Any other democratic country with such high ratio of walkovers? If that's the question you're referring to, my answer is obviously I don't know. Anyway, rhetorical question.

You move easily within the opposition camp, you are well regarded as a nice guy but your clear commitments on the nature of politics are hazy at best. There are many people in this forum and you more or less can tell those that lean in a particular way over time. Not in your case.

You fit a profile that unfortunately I am familiar with. I had similar concerns with Uncle Yap also a nice guy. To make matters worse, you are a linguist which reinforces the profile associated with the trade and your transient nature of vocation and its mobility further gives me food for thought.

Its very unlikely probability wise that ducks line up in that manner but I would suggest that you best keep to one party and make known your colours clearly and without hesitation.

I not only move easily among opposition camps, I move easily among PAP camps. I'm neither pro nor anti PAP. I look at the issue or policy concerned or in question, then as much as my mental faculty can afford and muster, adopt and offer a pro Singapore opinion.

 

[cleareyes]

We have to be careful what the actual issue is. Don't make the mistake of pointing fingers and laying the blame on the quality of opposition as Ramseth. This is exactly what the PAP has been harping from day 1 and we fall into their trap.

The issue is that the elections by the introduction of a number of barriers and high hurdles is pushing away genuine and sincere candidates.

We should not accept;
1) High nomination fees - OZ only charges 500AUD ($633) while we charge over $13K.

2) GRC must not be recognised and therefore abolished

3) Rally sites a and its use must be reasonable and not a last minute release.

4) All elections data including precint demographics must be publicly available.

The PAP has only allowed one umbrella so the number of people that can stand underneath is limited. Lets not waste out time asking people why they are not standing under one umbrella but ask why there are not many umbrellas available.

I do not believe very much about the care for quality of candidates but more right now on the quantity that we could have for selection.

Lack of quantity is the result of walkovers and vice verses and unless we can overcome the lack of quantity, i do not see much changes taking place.

Then again, lack of quantity itself is also a fault of the opposition themselves as constant lack of cooperation and disillusopn of the situation causes many people to leave the opposition and not staying around long enough. Do we blame the PAP for this?

Yes we do.

But opposition leaders have to take the blame as there is a lack of directions and clarification of roles for individual members to focus upon.

 

[phouse3]

Then again, lack of quantity itself is also a fault of the opposition themselves as constant lack of cooperation and disillusopn of the situation causes many people to leave the opposition and not staying around long enough. Do we blame the PAP for this?

Yes we do.

But opposition leaders have to take the blame as there is a lack of directions and clarification of roles for individual members to focus upon.

NSP, RP and SDP are growing. Which party are you referring you about decline in no. of candidates? So who and how many resigned this round?

Can LTK still give the excuse he just took over the ruin...err...rein only in 2001when 8 or 9 years have already passed?

 

[zhihau]

I can't help but notice that people like to harp that 66% of singaporeans voted for PAP when it is not true.

bro,

been harping on the fact that it was only 0.79M valid votes for the PAP since May 06 in Sam's old forum in delphi. percentages can be misleading.

 

[TeeKee]

1. High nomination deposit surely means a higher barrier to entry to stand as candidate. However, it also means having candidates of certain financial standing. It worked in favour the opposition too in a way. Look at GE 2006 nominations, no more 3-cornered or multi-cornered contests.

if fielding candiates requires lots of funding like the US presidential elections, aren't you concerned about lobbyists influencing the candidates?

some hawker could easily cough up the money....do you think he will represent the interests of the public?

i think you are discriminating people who are cash poor...

poor doesn't mean no integrity...

and rich doesn't mean they have all the integrity..

besides, having such high fees will deter many qualified and potential candidates who wants to serve the country.

but with just a small token sum would ensure they are serious about running...

if politics is mainly for the rich, now isn't that a scary thing to see?

 

[TeeKee]

2. With more than 20 years of HDB population racial redistribution, it's getter harder and harder to argue with the GRC idea of ensuring some minority representation in Parliament. However, I think that GRC should be smaller (4 members inclusive of 1 minority) instead of the present 5 and 6. I also think the number of SMC should be increased. May I also add, any vacating of a GRC seat should precipitate a by-election for the GRC.

GRC is cheating no matter how many candidates you are fielding...


isn't this thread is all about?

 

[TeeKee]

I not only move easily among opposition camps, I move easily among PAP camps. I'm neither pro nor anti PAP. I look at the issue or policy concerned or in question, then as much as my mental faculty can afford and muster, adopt and offer a pro Singapore opinion.

how could you be making the right opinions if we do not have fair and independent media?

how could you be making the right opinions if oppositions were never tried and tested in parliament to run as a government?

what is your opinions of Ho Ching Temasek and GIC loses by Lau Lee?

 

[cleareyes]

NSP, RP and SDP are growing. Which party are you referring you about decline in no. of candidates? So who and how many resigned this round?

Can LTK still give the excuse he just took over the ruin...err...rein only in 2001when 8 or 9 years have already passed?

Do not count your chicks before they hatch.

It could be true that, or at least appear to be, that many opposition parties appear to be growing and if the trend were to continue as of 2001 to now, that growth could and would still continue.

But we are talking about quantity of candidates that could be put up to face PAP so as to reduce the number of walkover wards as much as possible.

I dont know what excues LTK could give. the last GE in 2006 where WP was able to field 20 candidates is by itself a show of numbetrs. But if the other parties could put up 20 each as well, that itself would be impressive and an upset could be on the card.

Now, does all the opposition parties have the resources to do that?

BTW, if you had read my posting carefully, I m talking about lack of numbers, not decline in numbers.

 

[cleareyes]

how could you be making the right opinions if we do not have fair and independent media?

are any media around the world really fair and independent?

how could you be making the right opinions if oppositions were never tried and tested in parliament to run as a government?

so are you suggesting that the opposition beg PAP for a chance in parliment and not fight for it?

what is your opinions of Ho Ching Temasek and GIC loses by Lau Lee?

Be honest and check the figures. Its true that temasek and GIC had made spectacular losses but there is always profit to over the losses.

 

[kingrant]

1. High nomination deposit surely means a higher barrier to entry to stand as candidate. However, it also means having candidates of certain financial standing. It worked in favour the opposition too in a way. Look at GE 2006 nominations, no more 3-cornered or multi-cornered contests.

2. With more than 20 years of HDB population racial redistribution, it's getter harder and harder to argue with the GRC idea of ensuring some minority representation in Parliament. However, I think that GRC should be smaller (4 members inclusive of 1 minority) instead of the present 5 and 6. I also think the number of SMC should be increased. May I also add, any vacating of a GRC seat should precipitate a by-election for the GRC.

3. I agree. Rally sites should and could be well prepared and allocated in advance. There should be no more senseless queues and muddy fields.

4. I think that's already available. Candidates can buy the electoral map and the electoral roll, and they do, otherwise how to plan campaign?

You have fallen into the PAP's trap of defining the quality of the Opp by their financial standing. Look at the PAP MPs they have. What were their backgrounds? What financial standings can all of them boast?Were they merely employees of GLCs? ex-civil servants? ex-army generals? Who was WKS? An ex-HP HR man. Who was Mah Bow tan? Who are these non-elected MPs who rode on the coat-tails of senior MPs who were previously nobodies too but who thru default were made Ministers? We need to put in the numbers to be effective in Parliament. We have had taxidrivers, bus drivers, clerks (Lim Chin Siong and Fong Swee Suan were clerks), journalists (S Raja), and even chee chiong fun seller (Chan Choy Siong). MP candidates shld have the heart of the people, to voice out popular issues, not to run govts. A minority Opp elite can go on to fight for the reins of govt, but until then, it'll be a good start if we can displace some of these hotshot upstart PAP MPs that we have - thru chicanery, that we never get to vote in but got in nevertheless.

 

[TeeKee]

Be honest and check the figures. Its true that temasek and GIC had made spectacular losses but there is always profit to over the losses.

am really amazed by the MIWs way of saying red becomes black.......

dishonesty becomes honesty....wow! you guys have no souls...

no wonder Jesus is coming...

 

[cleareyes]

am really amazed by the MIWs way of saying red becomes black.......

dishonesty becomes honesty....wow! you guys have no souls...

no wonder Jesus is coming...

Stop trying to put someone along with MIW just because others dont agree with you.

I m not arguing black to red or white or any other color but was just saying what is gfact is fact. I do not deny about the losses made by Temasek or GIC, given better management, certain losses can be avoided. But it seem the likes of you only lament on the losses and not on the gains and hence such negative view would give no help to anyone.

If you want the people to be more open to change, be more positive towards them and not put them down all the time. You want their support and yet refuse to acknowldge the contribution they have done, these same people will always stick with PAP because at least PAP showed them appreciation.