Stallholders in row with Workers Party town council

[SgParent]

........

I see a few problems with you allegation:-

a)
According to AHPETC, NEA was coordinating this cleaning. And there must have been previous cleaning of the same hawker center when NEA has always been the coordinating agency, and the hawker association has always been providing the scaffolding, unless AHPETC is lying.

If that is the established and understood SOP then you could only fault AHPETC for not double, triple confirming with the hawker association that it was really going to provide the required scaffolding this time.

b)
AHPETC mentioned it was involved by providing the cleaners, not some "resourceful" contractors. But I could imagine the TC would have considered:-
=> reach Blk538, see no scaffolding on day no.1, quickly contact at least 2 or 3 contractors to come down to give quotation
=> hold off any cleaning on the lower level until the scaffolding is up, cleaning of ceilings and exhaust ducts are done
=> scaffolding maybe setup by end of day no.2
=> cleaning begins...........

Simply, this means the cleaning is already behind schedule by 2 days. No?

c)
AHPETC said no extra cost is mentioned by itself. In fact it could be still thinking and negotiating with NEA / hawker association to provide the scaffolding. So where did that come from?

Somebody stirring conflict?


So unless you have additional or differing information, let's wait to see if NEA or that hawker association will add on, shall we?

 

[tanwahp]

PAP will be judged on many more things. NEA issue here is just very very small, insignificant. And they have the advantage of the screen provided by civil servants. We have to accept that fact, incumbent has its advantages.

Your logic can't be, because I make more mistakes, therefore each mistake is a small percentage of all mistakes and therefore small? I don't think that's how the middle ground sees things, given the ground the opposition has gained and for WP despite the "plagiarism" and "poor" performance after Aljuined nabbed Hougang and PE.

You will have to read again. That's not what they did. They just left the job undone and the hawkers were angry that they never clean the top. They are now in discussion AFTER the big hoohaa.

I read again and it says AHPETC is working with relevant parties to rectify the issue. If they cannot clean the place immediately and arrange another day it is unprofessional, after they have made the arrangements for another day it is due to the "hooha". It still comes back to your damn if you do damn if you don't approach.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

That's the reality we face and that's how voters' perception is formed. That is why there are still 60% of voters voted PAP. We can cry unfair or foul but that's the way it is.

The fact is this. 5 days have been scheduled but AHTC only made use of 1 day to do general cleaning. They have 5 days but didn't solve that scaffolding problem. Is that a big problem to begin with? Absolutely not. But they chose not to do the cleaning.

Please bear in mind hawkers closed for 5 days for AHTC to clean it but they did a Half-F job. Any hawker will be angry about it because they have suffered loss of income for nothing! Who are going to compensate them?

If by your logic, then must well do cleaning every 2 or 3 years? Since it will still be solved? That's unacceptable. Problem arises and it should be solved right there and then. Especially so, it is such a small problem to begin with and they have ample time to solve it. That's how unprofessional they are.

If you still cannot see where AHTC has gone wrong, I feel sorry for you. It is basically because you lack empathy and that happens to be PAP's greatest problem as well.

Goh Meng Seng

Your logic can't be, because I make more mistakes, therefore each mistake is a small percentage of all mistakes and therefore small? I don't think that's how the middle ground sees things, given the ground the opposition has gained and for WP despite the "plagiarism" and "poor" performance after Aljuined nabbed Hougang and PE.



I read again and it says AHPETC is working with relevant parties to rectify the issue. If they cannot clean the place immediately and arrange another day it is unprofessional, after they have made the arrangements for another day it is due to the "hooha". It still comes back to your damn if you do damn if you don't approach.

 

[jw5]

GE 2016 will not be that surprising.
WP will probably retain their existing seats and get another GRC and maybe one or two more single seats.
I think SDP may put up a good fight in 1 or 2 constituencies they contest in, whether they win or not will depend on many factors.
The most interesting thing about GE 2016 would be what GMS does and how he fares.
I'm pretty sure that he will contest, becasue he just can't help it.
Life can be boring, more entertainment is always appreciated.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I am not even that sure about whether I will contest in next GE or not, what makes you so sure about what I will do? Scratch my head man!


Goh Meng Seng

GE 2016 will not be that surprising.
WP will probably retain their existing seats and get another GRC and maybe one or two more single seats.
I think SDP may put up a good fight in 1 or 2 constituencies they contest in, whether they win or not will depend on many factors.
The most interesting thing about GE 2016 would be what GMS does and how he fares.
I'm pretty sure that he will contest, becasue he just can't help it.
Life can be boring, more entertainment is always appreciated.

 

[DEDEER]

I am not even that sure about whether I will contest in next GE or not, what makes you so sure about what I will do? Scratch my head man!


Goh Meng Seng

Come on PAP agent Goh Meng Seng,

Not much clowns left from opposition in GE. Only Desmond Lim. He needs a sidekick. Your participation in the next GE is highly anticipated.

 

[jw5]

I am not even that sure about whether I will contest in next GE or not, what makes you so sure about what I will do? Scratch my head man!


Goh Meng Seng

I'm very confident you eventually will. Being serious, not sarcastic.
You won't be able to resist it.
How you will do is a different matter, could be quite well you know, if you focus on the right issues and on the right platforms with sufficient time to prepare. You should use logic and not emotion to ascertain how to approach this.
Let's come back to my prediction and assessment of your actions after nomination or polling day in 2016.

 

[DEDEER]

I'm very confident you eventually will. Being serious, not sarcastic.
You won't be able to resist it.
How you will do is a different matter, could be quite well you know, if you focus on the right issues and on the right platforms with sufficient time to prepare. You should use logic and not emotion to ascertain how to approach this.
Let's come back to my prediction and assessment of your actions after nomination or polling day in 2016.

If his PAP ah gong give him $ and ask him to do 'kar jiao' in some wards, he will go lor. If ah gong never give him green light, he will stay by the side and attack WP, just like in Hougang and Punggol East BE. This Agent Goh bought by PAP already.

 

[tanwahp]

That's the reality we face and that's how voters' perception is formed. That is why there are still 60% of voters voted PAP. We can cry unfair or foul but that's the way it is.

And by your logic, the other opposition parties must have made even more serious mistakes than WP, since the PAP gets above 60% when fighting against them.

The fact is this. 5 days have been scheduled but AHTC only made use of 1 day to do general cleaning. They have 5 days but didn't solve that scaffolding problem. Is that a big problem to begin with? Absolutely not. But they chose not to do the cleaning.

Please bear in mind hawkers closed for 5 days for AHTC to clean it but they did a Half-F job. Any hawkers will be angry about it because they have suffered loss of income for nothing! Who are going to compensate them?

From my limited understanding of cleaning, I will derive these facts by commonsense:

1. General cleaning will surely take less time than ceiling cleaning. No way it will be 2.5 days for GC and 2.5 days for ceiling cleaning.
2. If general cleaning is done and the scaffolding is not resolved, if my workers report to work on the second day, they will have nothing to do. Waste manpower. The best case is to cease the cleaning operations until the scaffolding is here.
3. If the TC was so pressured by the hooha on 26th May as you claim, they will resolve the problem as soon as possible but as at 29th May after 4 days, the TC's letter shows that the problem is not resolved yet. If 4 days from 26th to 29th are not enough, then it is possible that those 5 days were also not enough.

I don't see how that is hard to understand.

Are you a scaffolding manufacturer or in the construction industry that you know scaffoldings can be set up within hours or a day?

If by your logic, then must well do cleaning every 2 or 3 years?

Did I argue for that? If asked, I will have a sense of proportion to tell the difference between 5 days and 3 years.

If you still cannot see where AHTC has gone wrong, I feel sorry for you. It is basically because you lack empathy and that happens to be PAP's greatest problem as well.

I don't even think that I am arguing that AHPETC is right or wrong. No offence, I am just poking at the absurdity of some of the arguments you've used for the fun of it.

 

[jw5]

If his PAP ah gong give him $ and ask him to do 'kar jiao' in some wards, he will go lor. If ah gong never give him green light, he will stay by the side and attack WP, just like in Hougang and Punggol East BE. This Agent Goh bought by PAP already.

He's too "obvious" to have been bought.
And strangely enough, for all his ego, arrogance, overconfidence, pettiness, stubborness and occasional stupidity, he doesn't strike me as the type who can be easily bought.
He's definitely giving it to WP though, most of the time without strong basis.

The way to look at WP (as they are now, not if they eventually become the government) is simple: Since they are not the government with resources and power, are they doing anything that is detrimental to or harms the well being of ordinary Singaporeans?
If the answer is no, let them get on with what they are doing and try to win more seats.
If GMS realises that and focuses on the right issues (and/or people), his chances as a 2016 candidate will be much higher.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Actually, the absurdity lies in you going round and round without really seeing you are stuck in your maze f illogic... no offence about it but I having a good laugh about it.

Apparently, you don't see what responsibility a PROFESSIONAL service provider should have and what really matters here. The ultimate conclusion is, AHTC has screwed up because it has made its clients the hawkers, really pissed off. Why? Unprofessional management of the whole cleaning process. You can go round and round in circles, but reality still sticks like a super glue.

Well, at least AHTC knows that it has done something "OOOPS!" and need to quickly push blame to somebody else, like NEA and some elusive "non-authorised personnel", just fell short of an apology because they don't even know they have screwed up that badly.

Anyway, I am just happy to be a by-stander, pointing straight out the Emperor has no clothes. No offence, but your logic has no clothes over it.


Goh Meng Seng

And by your logic, the other opposition parties must have made even more serious mistakes than WP, since the PAP gets above 60% when fighting against them.



From my limited understanding of cleaning, I will derive these facts by commonsense:

1. General cleaning will surely take less time than ceiling cleaning. No way it will be 2.5 days for GC and 2.5 days for ceiling cleaning.
2. If general cleaning is done and the scaffolding is not resolved, if my workers report to work on the second day, they will have nothing to do. Waste manpower. The best case is to cease the cleaning operations until the scaffolding is here.
3. If the TC was so pressured by the hooha on 26th May as you claim, they will resolve the problem as soon as possible but as at 29th May after 4 days, the TC's letter shows that the problem is not resolved yet. If 4 days from 26th to 29th are not enough, then it is possible that those 5 days were also not enough.

I don't see how that is hard to understand.

Are you a scaffolding manufacturer or in the construction industry that you know scaffoldings can be set up within hours or a day?



Did I argue for that? If asked, I will have a sense of proportion to tell the difference between 5 days and 3 years.



I don't even think that I am arguing that AHPETC is right or wrong. No offence, I am just poking at the absurdity of some of the arguments you've used for the fun of it.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Well, at least LOCKE is honest and has intellectual integrity. Wrong means wrong, don't try to defend the indefensible.

What is needed for a political party caught in such situation is an apology, a sincere apology to the hawkers then talk about future arrangement later. Failure to deliver the service, no matter what reasons, by a service provider, is a failure in itself. Especially so, it is over such absurd reason.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[tanwahp]

Actually, the absurdity lies in you going round and round without really seeing you are stuck in your maze f illogic... no offence about it but I having a good laugh about it.

Yes, you just spoke my heart.

 

[DEDEER]

Originally Posted by Goh Meng Seng
I am not that optimistic though.

WP will suffer a 3% drop upfront now, as their refusal to talk and negotiate may agitate SDP hardcore suppoters. These people may just vote KJ or DL instead of WP. Thus, in actual fact, WP will need a total of 11% vote swing against PAP.... LLL is not JBJ. Not possible.

Goh Meng Seng.

PAP Agent Goh,

I am your fan. You ANALysis always hit the nail. Very very chun. When you say many people pissed off with WP I am sure you are right. Just as you were so damn right in your Punggol East BE ANALysis

 

[lockeliberal]

GMS

They made a mistake. How small how big is for me unclear ? What is glaring for me is that, the details are lacking. We have no idea about how things are done, who is responsible for communication, what is the normal chain of events, how have things changed if they have changed in view that previously all the past cleanings were non issues. Mountain out of a rat hole ? But the TC manager should have just apologised for the oversight.



Locke

Well, at least LOCKE is honest and has intellectual integrity. Wrong means wrong, don't try to defend the indefensible.

What is needed for a political party caught in such situation is an apology, a sincere apology to the hawkers then talk about future arrangement later. Failure to deliver the service, no matter what reasons, by a service provider, is a failure in itself. Especially so, it is over such absurd reason.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Locke,

I can only conclude that:

It is really a joke and absurdity to tell people you have over 20 years of experience in estate management but was unable to clean hawker centres because there was no scaffolding... 20 years of experience but can't get scaffolding for 5 days?

NEA is not your client, potentially there to make life difficult for you... that's granted. But failure to deliver the promised service for whatever stupid reason, is plain stupidity even if there is an element of sabotage. You are practically in war and you should always be mindful about that. Get it done first, then scold NEA later. Period.


Goh Meng Seng

GMS

They made a mistake. How small how big is for me unclear ? What is glaring for me is that, the details are lacking. We have no idea about how things are done, who is responsible for communication, what is the normal chain of events, how have things changed if they have changed in view that previously all the past cleanings were non issues. Mountain out of a rat hole ? But the TC manager should have just apologised for the oversight.



Locke

 

[tanwahp]

Yes they screwed it up for whatever reason

Not sure if people saying you're a WP member is true. If it is I think there's a difference between being impartial and compromising.

If the cleaners got stood up by an external party, someone has to work very hard to convince me that the cleaners are at fault.

I won't worry that the opportunity to find WP making real mistakes or worse mistakes (if you think this is a mistake) will be lacking as there were and will be.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

A storm in a teacup that has been exaggerated and blown out of proportion.

Don't tell me PAP TCs don't make mistakes, don't have communication breakdowns, and have never inconvenienced anyone in their entire existence before.

Next month, AHPETC will rectify the situation and the necessary work will be completed. So what's the big problem?

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

It is very easy for NEA to screw WP. Just cause some hiccup or miscommunication problem with the town council. The next day, MSM will be rubbing their hands with glee and heaping the blame on WP for failing to meet the criteria, failing to do the job, etc.

The scaffolding is a logistical problem that some contractor overlooked or failed to deliver on time. There was some breakdown in communication too. Such things happen with all political parties, regardless who is in charge.

 

[SgParent]

Apparently, you don't see what responsibility a PROFESSIONAL service provider should have and what really matters here. The ultimate conclusion is, AHTC has screwed up because it has made its clients the hawkers, really pissed off. Why? Unprofessional management of the whole cleaning process. You can go round and round in circles, but reality still sticks like a super glue.

Let's see:-

a) NEA - supposed to be organizing the cleaning so it should take the bulk of the blame from Blk538-gate
b) hawker association - failed to setup the scaffolding (if that's what they are expected to provide) which is a byproduct of the failure of NEA for not doing the coordination properly
c) AHPETC - failed to clean the ceilings and exhaust ducts (which is a byproduct of the failure of the hawker association)

So your "unprofessional management of the whole cleaning process" accusation should be directed at NEA.

Well, at least AHTC knows that it has done something "OOOPS!" and need to quickly push blame to somebody else, like NEA and some elusive "non-authorised personnel", just fell short of an apology because they don't even know they have screwed up that badly.

I'm not sure about the "push blame" part unless NEA or that hawker association threaten to sue AHPETC or comes out with their version of the story

For your "apology" comment, yes I agree AHPETC could be faulted for not coming out more humble and more apologetic.