SAF MO scolds sick NSman: You can only report sick if you collapse!

[Leongsam]

U have just defeated your own argument by admitting that the medical assessment does not catch "subtle" problems. So, if you have a "subtle" problem, the medical assessment will not help you reduce your odds of dying by reducing it. Judging by the number of supposedly fit, medically passed young men who are dying, I would say these subtle problems are not that subtle, and hence the standard SAF medical assessment is useless.

If you have a subtle problem, you're probably going to die prematurely anyway. All the SAF does is speed up the process. Humans aren't perfect. We all have flaws as a result of genetic mutations. This accounts for the wide variations in life span. Some people live to 95 without any problems. Others die way before they were expected to.

You should learn to accept things for what they are rather than looking for a scapegoat for life's unavoidable tragedies.

 

[Leongsam]

So you will only be happy if someone's signature state "A Medical Officer KILLED my best friend!"?

Your best friend is someone's son, father and husband. This NSman have none?

Don't be silly. There's no comparision. If you want to blame someone for all NS deaths, blame LKY and Goh Keng Swee who were responsible for the introduction of National Service.

I lost a good friend in the army too. A C4 charge blew his chest wide apart. It was a training accident. Shit happens.

On the other hand, the taxi driver was clearly at fault for killing my best friend. He saw him approaching a junction and the cyclist had right of way. The taxi driver carried on regardless.

 

[Papsmearer]

If you have a subtle problem, you're probably going to die prematurely anyway. All the SAF does is speed up the process. Humans aren't perfect. We all have flaws as a result of genetic mutations. This accounts for the wide variations in life span. Some people live to 95 without any problems. Others die way before they were expected to.

You should learn to accept things for what they are rather than looking for a scapegoat for life's unavoidable tragedies.

If you have a medical condition that would shorten your life such that you die prematurely, why would you want the SAF to speed up the process u idiot? U would want the SAF to run a full battery of tests to detect this condition so that you can take measures to prolong your life or at the very least be exempt from NS and live your remaining live to the fullest. But by your standard, the standard check up for entry to NS will not pick up these problems. I had a friend who was exempt from NS, in fact he was told not to serve at all. Can u imagine the medical condition that he had that would make the SAF say that. Fortunately for him, his condition was known before he registered and he did not have to rely on some SAF check up. He spend the 2 years free time living it up, and having a great time. He has passed away since, but if you met him, he was active, played sports, u would never know he was sick.

This is the reason why there should be a full physical work up andnot the shit that passes for medical inspection in the SAF. The fact so many NSmen are dying during training is testimony to the fact your "subtle" problems are not that subtle after all.

 

[sleaguepunter]

I lost a good friend in the army too. A C4 charge blew his chest wide apart. It was a training accident. Shit happens.

your friend screwed up. hope he didnt killed anyone else with his mistake.

 

[Leongsam]

your friend screwed up. hope he didnt killed anyone else with his mistake.

He didn't "screw up". The practice at the time was to insert electric detonators into the charges during preparation. For some reason, one of them went off even though the detonator was not connected to any power source. The theory was that microwave energy from a nearby transmission tower induced sufficient current to set it off.

The whole SOP was re-written after the BOI.

 

[Leongsam]

The fact so many NSmen are dying during training is testimony to the fact your "subtle" problems are not that subtle after all.

Percentage wise the figure is very low and it simply isn't worth the extra expenditure. Parents who are concerned can always subject their children to whatever additional tests they want but it shouldn't have to be paid for by the rest of us. You have to bear in mind that tests carry their own risk factors too. People have had their intestines ruptured while being checked for colon cancer. You always have to weigh the risks vs the benefits.

At the end of the day, even the most stringent testing regime isn't going to catch everything. I've known cyclists who have gone for a complete medical checks including ECG and ultrasound dying of heart attacks during or after a race. Professional footballers have dropped dead too and they're put through very thorough medical checks by the insurance companies.

You have to learn to accept death as part of life. It's unavoidable and can happen at any time.. sometimes when you least expect it.

 

[bullfrog]

That MO is a motherfucker alright.

As a doctor, he shld be looking after the soldiers' welfare. and the training officer/platoon cmdr looks after trg. The moment the MO starts acting like a Trg Offr and the Trainer starts acting like an MO, we will have NS men dropping dead like flies on a hot day.

 

[Leongsam]

That MO is a motherfucker alright.

As a doctor, he shld be looking after the soldiers' welfare. and the training officer/platoon cmdr looks after trg. The moment the MO starts acting like a Trg Offr and the Trainer starts acting like an MO, we will have NS men dropping dead like flies on a hot day.

A MO is an integral part of the combat unit. His job is not to pander to the welfare of individual soldiers. He has to make judgement calls which maximise the combat effectiveness of the whole unit and this could often mean sending men who are not in perfect fighting condition back to the front line.

If he grants medical leave to every solder who claims to feel "faint", the SAF might as well close shop.

I often feel giddy after hard physical effort. I respond by pushing myself even harder. That's the only way to improve endurance. If you back off at the first signs of discomfort, you're never going to win anything.

 

[bryanlim1972]

You have to learn to accept death as part of life. It's unavoidable and can happen at any time.. sometimes when you least expect it.

the worst rubbish i have heard, so the SAF can disclaim liability and act negligently towards its service men? just coz everyone's gonna die sooner or later? then we might as well close down all the hospitals, since medical care is a waste of time, except for the elite like yourself of course.

sam, u have lost the plot. get down from your ivory tower.

 

[bryanlim1972]

Pre Enlistment, go get a letter from a specialist to certify that your son has some form of injury (dick too short no counted), best is heart problem, spinal issue or past injury (i heard knee injury is the best).

Submit the specialist letter during pre-enlisment checkup, then just have to sit back, relax and wait for the posting letter.

this only works in sam's ivory tower - coz it assumes all are rich enough to go see a specialist to get a downgrade. if we follow this logic to its conclusion, all who can't afford to downgrade their kids, deserve to see them die from undetected medical conditions due to a sub-standard SAF pre-enlistment checkup.

 

[Leongsam]

the worst rubbish i have heard, so the SAF can disclaim liability and act negligently towards its service men? just coz everyone's gonna die sooner or later? then we might as well close down all the hospitals, since medical care is a waste of time, except for the elite like yourself of course.

I'd be the one of the first to speak up against negligence but this isn't the case here. It's about risk analysis. Life is all about weighing risks against consequences. We do it subconsciously on a daily basis and organisations do it as part and parcel of policy.

Take the airline industry as an example.. planes could be made safer than they are today but that would add significant cost to the point where the ordinary man would no longer be able to afford to take to the skies. A balance therefore has to be achieved between risks and cost factors and a compromise agreed upon which is practical and workable.

In a hospital setting, wouldn't it be great if each and every patient was assigned a full time nurse 24 hours a day from the moment of admission. The nurse could watch vital signs and monitor all the equipment and the probability of dying in hospital could be greatly reduced.

In reality, all each patient gets is a button to press and that includes first class patients (ruling elite excluded). If a patient has a sudden seizure, we all know full well he/she won't be able to hit the alert button in time. However, it's a compromise that is generally acceptable.

 

[hockbeng]

I'd be the one of the first to speak up against negligence but this isn't the case here. It's about risk analysis. Life is all about weighing risks against consequences. We do it subconsciously on a daily basis and organisations do it as part and parcel of policy.

Take the airline industry as an example.. planes could be made safer than they are today but that would add significant cost to the point where the ordinary man would no longer be able to afford to take to the skies. A balance therefore has to be achieved between risks and cost factors and a compromise agreed upon which is practical and workable.

In a hospital setting, wouldn't it be great if each and every patient was assigned a full time nurse 24 hours a day from the moment of admission. The nurse could watch vital signs and monitor all the equipment and the probability of dying in hospital could be greatly reduced.

In reality, all each patient gets is a button to press and that includes first class patients (ruling elite excluded). If a patient has a sudden seizure, we all know full well he/she won't be able to hit the alert button in time. However, it's a compromise that is generally acceptable.

Very true.

If taken to the extreme, all airlines should equip every passenger with parachutes and an escape pod that can be ejected from the plane like in star trek.

Or all cars should be built with armour that can withstand an IED explosion.

BTW, can u post that photo of a toyota that got hit with an IED. I miss that photo.

 

[bryanlim1972]

I'd be the one of the first to speak up against negligence but this isn't the case here. It's about risk analysis. Life is all about weighing risks against consequences. We do it subconsciously on a daily basis and organisations do it as part and parcel of policy.

Take the airline industry as an example.. planes could be made safer than they are today but that would add significant cost to the point where the ordinary man would no longer be able to afford to take to the skies. A balance therefore has to be achieved between risks and cost factors and a compromise agreed upon which is practical and workable.

In a hospital setting, wouldn't it be great if each and every patient was assigned a full time nurse 24 hours a day from the moment of admission. The nurse could watch vital signs and monitor all the equipment and the probability of dying in hospital could be greatly reduced.

In reality, all each patient gets is a button to press and that includes first class patients (ruling elite excluded). If a patient has a sudden seizure, we all know full well he/she won't be able to hit the alert button in time. However, it's a compromise that is generally acceptable.

Sam, do you realize, and i'm sure u do coz u aint dumb, that all your examples are derived from the Private sector, ie willing buyer willing seller.

NS is national conscription enacted by legislation. we men of singapore have no choice in opting out/in macham suka suka in the private sector.

Risk analysis is applicable to private transactions, but where the State intervenes and legislates to make it compulsory, the standard of care expected should arguably be much, much higher.

if a citizen chose to engage any of the services u mentioned, its of his/her own free choice. NS is not one of free choice.

 

[bryanlim1972]

Very true.

If taken to the extreme, all airlines should equip every passenger with parachutes and an escape pod that can be ejected from the plane like in star trek.

Or all cars should be built with armour that can withstand an IED explosion.

BTW, can u post that photo of a toyota that got hit with an IED. I miss that photo.

no sir u are dead wrong. class action liability suits over the years have ensured these industries have set a high bar for the safety of their products.

SAF has improved some-what over the years with the various TSRs, but in the big things like pre-enlistment checkup, they fail. they can easily afford better checkups if they stopped paying over the top to SFI for food that is often thrown away (re:reservist) or buying inappropriate uniforms from batam or over-paying for spare parts.

 

[kingrant]

I agree with bullfrog.

In a more serious country under a more serious climate, I may concur with you. But given today's Singapore, when even the President's son can escape a combat vocation by hiding under some pseduo-medico research scholarship, the insititution of NS and citizen defence has become a joke. When Colonels can be super promoted to BGs in short shrift to meet political election imperatives, it was fuurther bastardised. Can anyone still take NS seriously?

Why one system for the rich and powerful and another system to ill-treat lesser privileged rank and file of society?
Any MO that thinks he is making our recruits into Rambos is a bloody fool. He should have his sights or his head examined.
That includes yrs.

A MO is an integral part of the combat unit. His job is not to pander to the welfare of individual soldiers. He has to make judgement calls which maximise the combat effectiveness of the whole unit and this could often mean sending men who are not in perfect fighting condition back to the front line.

If he grants medical leave to every solder who claims to feel "faint", the SAF might as well close shop.

I often feel giddy after hard physical effort. I respond by pushing myself even harder. That's the only way to improve endurance. If you back off at the first signs of discomfort, you're never going to win anything.

 

[winnipegjets]

A MO is an integral part of the combat unit. His job is not to pander to the welfare of individual soldiers. He has to make judgement calls which maximise the combat effectiveness of the whole unit and this could often mean sending men who are not in perfect fighting condition back to the front line.

Aiyoh ...a doctor's job is to look after the sick. Period. It is not the MO's job to consider combat needs. The commander can decide if he would want to follow the doctor's order. Doctor should just stick to their speciality. That MO is plainly stupid.

 

[sleaguepunter]

He didn't "screw up". The practice at the time was to insert electric detonators into the charges during preparation. For some reason, one of them went off even though the detonator was not connected to any power source. The theory was that microwave energy from a nearby transmission tower induced sufficient current to set it off.

The whole SOP was re-written after the BOI.

detonator is the most dangerous component in an explosive device. To plant a detonator during preparation is dumb. your friend if still alive should have his brain check for following a dangerous SOP. Just because it SOP do not mean it safe.

btw, the official report look flimsy. microwave engry from transmission tower can produce enough electric energy can set off the detonator my arse, somebody screwed up and a cover up more likely. If all SAF BOI reports can be trusted, then the wild boars in thomson can win singing contest liao. The C4 must be imported cheaply from skoda.

 

[Leongsam]

detonator is the most dangerous component in an explosive device. To plant a detonator during preparation is dumb. your friend if still alive should have his brain check for following a dangerous SOP. Just because it SOP do not mean it safe.

btw, the official report look flimsy. microwave engry from transmission tower can produce enough electric energy can set off the detonator my arse, somebody screwed up and a cover up more likely. If all SAF BOI reports can be trusted, then the wild boars in thomson can win singing contest liao. The C4 must be imported cheaply from skoda.

This happened way back in the early 70s. With the benefit of hindsight, we are all wise men. It was SOP at the time and the detonator leads were shorted so everyone assumed it was 100% safe.

Microwave energy was the only plausible explanation at the time. Perhaps it was just a wild guess. However, with the evidence blown to smithereens, finding the truth was never going to be easy.

 

[Leongsam]

Sam, do you realize, and i'm sure u do coz u aint dumb, that all your examples are derived from the Private sector, ie willing buyer willing seller.

Risk analysis is not exclusive to the private sector. Public hospitals weigh the pros and cons of many of their procedures and adopt certain policies and procedures only if the benefits outweigh the risks.

Civil engineers perform risk assessment when balancing budgets vs safety in road design and other engineering works.

In NZ, there is a big debate going on regarding how resistant new buildings should be to earthquakes. Should they be designed to withstand the big one of 8.5 and above which means that new structures are going to cost the earth or should the building code use a more practical limit of 7.5 as 99% of all earthquakes in the past have been below this figure. There is no "willing buyer willing seller" scenario. This is about the govt specifying a figure in the building code legislation.

There are always two sides to every debate. Buildings can easily be made to withstand shakes of 9.5 on the richter scale if there are no budget constraints. However, reality dictates that they have to be affordable so constructing the indestructible city is not feasible from an economic perspective.

Of course if a big one does come along and some buildings collapse and people are killed, the govt will then be accused of "compromising on safety" and labelled as "murderers with the blood of the victims on their hands".

 

[I_Hate_Pappies]

Don't be silly. There's no comparision. If you want to blame someone for all NS deaths, blame LKY and Goh Keng Swee who were responsible for the introduction of National Service.

I lost a good friend in the army too. A C4 charge blew his chest wide apart. It was a training accident. Shit happens.

On the other hand, the taxi driver was clearly at fault for killing my best friend. He saw him approaching a junction and the cyclist had right of way. The taxi driver carried on regardless.

We are discussing about this NSman reporting sick during a RT Training why are you linking to the introduction of NS Service? Anything wrong for this chap to take precaution of his own safety? Does it mean it takes the life of the NSman for you to say the M.O is clearly at fault for not excusing the NSman from the training since the NSman has reportedly declared unwell?