New Romance of 3 Kingdom serial drama is out

[Ramseth]

My fav is the YongZheng part - writing about his friendship with 13th Prince & the mysterious brilliant advisor 邬师爷, the KangXi teacher 伍先生also superbly written !

Sorry, sidetracked to off-topic .....

These advisors were of course, semi-lengendary, romanticised and exaggerated for written novel (note: novel, not historical record).

However, there were some basis to begin with. A novel character based on a real-life character, exaggerated in personality but not affecting the historical outcome, that's where William Shakespeare and Luo Guanzhong excelled in with Julius Caesar, Antony And Cleopatra etc. and of course the Chinese masterpiece of Romance Of The Three Kingdoms.

The fight for Kangxi's throne between 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th and 14th princes was world famous in the Chinese-speaking world for centuries. The outcome is a matter of history, the 4th prince won the throne.

How he won the throne, that's material for romantisation and exaggeration in both directions, whether he's a hero or a villain. If you read 二十四史，明清篇，terse and straight to the point historical record, I think you'd see for yourself that the 4th prince (Yongzheng) was the legitimate heir.

Yongzheng coming on throne was a legalist to the point of being harsh, all in the name of national interest and advancement. Therefore, he wasn't very well liked but more of being feared. Dissidents and dissenters circulated stories of illegitimate ursurpation of the throne by him.

It even wounded up in swordfighting stories about Lu Siniang romance with him and assassinating him ultimately. Pure bullshit. Lu Siniang was only 4 years old when Yongzheng ascended the throne and executed her grandfather Lu Liangwei and entire Lu clan for sedition. Yongzheng was 45 and Lu Siniang was 4. Romance? Only HK TV craps could come up with this.

Yongzheng was an alcoholic. That's well recorded. He drank wine all day long from breakfast to supper. But to be fair, he was no drunkard; he's more clearminded than all his subordinates and enemies. Womaniser or paedophile, never heard of. He most probably died through some adverse reaction between drugs and alcohol, like Andy Gibb.

 

[Subok]

from wikipedia on zhugeliang

"He is often recognised as the greatest and most accomplished strategist of his era"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_Liang

I think his only mistake is that he should have taken over Liu Dou and install himself as ruler of Shu, he would have work less and live longer and may be even unite the Middle Kingdom.

whether is he lousy, you have to go to Shu today which is modern day Sichuan.

If you go to chengdu today, you will see that there are monuments and temples dedicated to Zhugeliang, none to the 3 sworn brothers and A Dou.

People in Chengdu and Sichuan still have very high respect for this great man. He changed lives for the better and people through generations still revered him.

But surprising, Liu Bei's Statue front grand entrance to the centre hall of worship where statue of Zhuge Liang is situated albeit 3 steps lower than Liu Bei's worship hall. Zhuge Liang was revered but the people knows who Zhuge Liang in return revered.

though little was said of Zhuge Liang's descendants, they too were accorded places next to Liu Bei's statue.

history are not mere annals to be read and bragged by alamak people with bigotry ideas of whom their heroes are rather, history set precedences and markers that today's generation can measure the effects of decision made then, somewhat like our Singapore's 'Stop at Two' policy... then and todays reverser of "runaway effectiveness" of the policy to "three or more if you afford".

I would go as far as to bring history into the stand especially the part of Zhuge Liang's wisdom and premiership that transients through the generations which benefited from it. The independent municipal and provincial status of Szechuan, its domestic consumption alone far exceeds that of Singapore's. Its geological advantage, including being situated in the centre of the "basin" of the surrounding mountains. This spell not just geomagnetism advantage it draws as "basin" is often interpreted as catchment for wealth and bring in the centre of the basin would also be interpreted as wealth flowing downwards from the mountains which themselves source from heaven.

Further into being situated on a plateau of a volcanic plate accentuate its ideal feng shui and geographical advantages.

Hence rather than just being embroiled in the clashing of swords and exchanges of spears, look further into the political and economical fruit that transpired through the develops of Chengdu upon a man forthsight. Today Chengu is just ranked 3rd behind Beijing and Shanghai in many areas of developments. Only by keeping abreast with current affairs can the essence of the history deposited then be fully appreciated much like the cherry on the top of the ice cream.

this then lead to me personally holding Zhuge Liang in awe despite living nearly about 200AC, the cornerstone he led for the future developments of Chengdu. I would suspect few other cities can hold someone in such high esteem as Zhuge Liang. Disputing his place in history would be like denying Sir Stamford Raffles founding of Singapore and Mr LKY visionary leadership of modern Singapore (however debatable).

Cao Cao was truly a well oiled statesman of his time, which I would even put him comparatively to those like He Sheng in the Qin Dynasty,Wu Sangui and Yuan Shikai of recent history.

however good or bad is subjective just as Darth Vader will always have his sympathizers as well as the 66% who still believes in the whiter than white hypothesis.

What a bigot point of views will not change the entire course of history and developments which stood the litmus test of time. Time-tested, time proven, time to exonerate Zhuge Liang rightful place.

Again, I am not an apologist for Zhuge Liang neither am I worthy to even defend his legacy, but let history come alive and speaks among the living. Literature leads us back into historical legitimacy of Zhuge Liang's wits and wisdom, conclusion drawn from current relics and economical developments of Chengdu-Szechuan will exculpate vehemence accusations from self-styled bigot "darth vader sympathizer"

Cao Cao would have a star in the Statesmanship walk of fame so would He Sheng, Wu Sangui and Yuan Shikai, and I believe many of our political masters would too. But Zhuge Liang star is in the form of a city, a province, the people, and its economy.

 

[Ramseth]

ButHence rather than just being embroiled in the clashing of swords and exchanges of spears, look further into the political and economical fruit that transpired through the develops of Chengdu upon a man forthsight. Today Chengu is just ranked 3rd behind Beijing and Shanghai in many areas of developments. Only by keeping abreast with current affairs can the essence of the history deposited then be fully appreciated much like the cherry on the top of the ice cream.

Well said. There's the Chengdu today only because there was a Zhuge Liang. Appreciating history is mirror to understanding current affairs.

历史为实事与将来之明镜也。- 唐太宗

 

[Subok]

These advisors were of course, semi-lengendary, romanticised and exaggerated for written novel (note: novel, not historical record).

Note: Novel --

point in contention here is, often novelists draws their inspiration from oral traditions from the people which pass down from generations, which could bear some form of "mutated" truth from forefathers who could be the account witnesses to the events that took place. While though annals and chronicles of events are the more established authoritative version of history, many emperors and warlords had access to libraries of these records and the risked of being adulterated could be equally high if not as high. Therefore historians then have difficulties to keep their heads on the neck which may translate into permutations that favors whichever masters they served. I would rather then incorporate a small space for the existence of oral traditions backed by written records.

Take for instance, hypothetically, suddenly an entire generation of mankind were destroyed, leaving behind only their young offspring. And when they grew up they found the video tape of Forest Gump. And in the video tape Forest Gump was cross reference with many prominent historical politicians, movement like Burn the bra etc etc. When this new generation of people view the tape and as they checked all the events as presented in the film, would they conclude that Forest Gump is indeed someone who had lived in his era and the tape is a video biography of his life or just a movie?

The point I am trying to bring across is evidence cannot be just canonical literature. It has to incorporated some space for oral traditions, romanticized literature, circumstantial evidence, and understanding of culture of that period.

 

[Ramseth]

I agree. Canonical histories are always written by victors and survivors in their versions and from their points of view. However, that doesn't negate the fact that novelists have already put it out clearly upfront, they're writing novels with no pretense to historical authority, just for literature and entertainment.

 

[Subok]

Well said. There's the Chengdu today only because there was a Zhuge Liang. Appreciating history is mirror to understanding current affairs.

历史为实事与将来之明镜也。- 唐太宗

You would have bring my point too far, however, in the same light there is a Singapore today because there is a Lee Kuan Yew. - in the same light appreciating is mirror to understanding current affairs. 66% would say you are wrong while 34% stands to differ.

We will argue till the cows come home as to whether the glass is half filled or half empty, and missed the point that there's water in the glass. Zhuge Liang's place in Chengdu whether I accord it of highest standing or some bigots would state as irrelevant, will not change an alphabet of their standing in History and today's interpretation.

The archives of Singapore history will incorporate and appropriate Mr Lee Kuan's place as the founding father of modern Singapore whether we agree or not. Unless someone like Shi huangdi dares to burn the entire archives of history. So whether Mr Lee Kuan Yew will be exalted in the future still depends of future likes of Ramseth etc. Whether canonical literature is sufficient to establish the truth or resentments found in the oral traditions exonerate people like Francis Seow, Tang Liang hong, late J.B jeyaretnam, and other political "liabilities" of the ruling party remain yet to be seen.

 

[Subok]

I agree. Canonical histories are always written by victors and survivors in their versions and from their points of view. However, that doesn't negate the fact that novelists have already put it out clearly upfront, they're writing novels with no pretense to historical authority, just for literature and entertainment.

novelists then in your sense of the word would be constraint to those who view their work with artistry and entertainment. Those who I would term categorically as novelist in its pristine definition.

but if you do allow me with permission, I would like to bring out the fact that many novelist harbors deep political resentments or aspirations. Therefore hidden in their writing often manifests hidden agendas against the actual mundane events/people. Much like George Orwell, Animals Farm - a satire allegory of communist Stalin's era. Though characters are fictional and satirical, but my question is, "are they"?.

Mr Ramseth, thank you so much and you had enlighten me so much in your contributions not just in this thread but many others. I hold it my honor and pleasure to be able to wave my short dagger insofar infront of your dragon slaying saber.

臣让。。。

 

[Ramseth]

You would have bring my point too far, however, in the same light there is a Singapore today because there is a Lee Kuan Yew. - in the same light appreciating is mirror to understanding current affairs. 66% would say you are wrong while 34% stands to differ.

Singapore is here today because of Sir Stamford Raffles, that much Lee Kuan Yew has always acknowledged. What he claims for himself is keeping Singapore relevant and viable as the world moves and changes.

We will argue till the cows come home as to whether the glass is half filled or half empty, and missed the point that there's water in the glass. Zhuge Liang's place in Chengdu whether I accord it of highest standing or some bigots would state as irrelevant, will not change an alphabet of their standing in History and today's interpretation.

The archives of Singapore history will incorporate and appropriate Mr Lee Kuan's place as the founding father of modern Singapore whether we agree or not. Unless someone like Shi huangdi dares to burn the entire archives of history. So whether Mr Lee Kuan Yew will be exalted in the future still depends of future likes of Ramseth etc. Whether canonical literature is sufficient to establish the truth or resentments found in the oral traditions exonerate people like Francis Seow, Tang Liang hong, late J.B jeyaretnam, and other political "liabilities" of the ruling party remain yet to be seen.

You flatter me. I'm just a lay commentator of no consequence. However, as I've said, victors write the records, of course the records will favour the victors, in Singapore's case, LKY and PAP of course. Canonical chronicles should be read with an open and analytical mind, not blind faith too.

Also I agree, literature and romantisation even if based on historical characters and events are loaded with deeper agenda and messages. These may not deliver to the readers an accurate chronological account of the events, but these carry morals and stories that if understood and practised, could be very beneficial to the person personally and to the society he's in.

 

[Alamaking]

Wah lau, why episode 33 so long 1?

 

[Wang Ye]

Go watch the last chapter of Yi Zhong Tian's lecture whereby he compares Cao Cao and Zhuge Liang. They are both very similar in many ways. Zhuge Liang fans are going to flame me for this.

 

[Sperminator]

Go watch the last chapter of Yi Zhong Tian's lecture whereby he compares Cao Cao and Zhuge Liang. They are both very similar in many ways. Zhuge Liang fans are going to flame me for this.

Thanks for this pointer.

I always think that Cao Cao is a mix of a very strong Chief Commander (大将军) coupled with an intelligence of a great Counsel (军师). Cao Cao by himself can plot strategies, and execute military warfare. He was a good politician as well.

However, being a great leader, he always seek a second opinion (from his 军师爷), although his mind is always made up, because he wants to be sure.

If you compare Zhuge Liang with Cao Cao, my view is that Zhuge Liang is a little arrogant, as there is no one to consult things with, because Zhuge Liang view himself as the most intelligent Chief Counsel of Liu Bei.

I find that Cao Cao in many ways is better than Zhuge Liang, further more, Cao Cao was one of the WARLORDS / KINGS of that era, and Zhuge Liang was only a 军师爷 of SHU, and the highest pinnacle was 宰相 or Prime Minister for Liu Bei's idiot son.

I always wondered why Zhuge Liang, when he was Prime Minister of SHU, he should have recruited many intelligent advisors, and built many strong generals, however, he was totally a failure in this, and worst, his student was really hopeless... making me doubt the true intelligence of Zhuge Liang.

In comparison, Cao Cao have handed a legacy to his son Cao Pi, however, was conspired against by SIMA YI, another GENERAL+ADVISOR mix, and eventually it was SIMA YI's grandson that took control of the CHINA EMPIRE.

Of the Romance of the 3 Kingdoms, I always thought Liu Bei as a total failure. And Cao Cao as the mightiest King. Too bad Cao Cao doesn't have Liu Bei's kindness or 仁慈. If Cao Cao have that, he would have been Emperor of China much swifter.

 

[Ramseth]

I think it's unfair to compare Zhuge Liang to Cao Cao, even at same rank Prime Minister (just for example, but chronologically inco-ordinate of course). Cao Cao needed no approval from Liu Xie for any serious state or military matters. Zhuge Liang ultimately still needed needed approval from Liu Bei for such matters. In any case, both Zhuge Liang and Cao Cao wanted to leave a good posthumous name for themselves. They both could have easily became Emperors in their times, but refused to. If one or both of them attempted that, then history could have been more exciting, as well as TV series.

 

[Sperminator]

Indeed.

Agreed unfair in such comparison.

Zhuge Liang had the opportunity to become KING of SHU, but have kept his loyalty to Liu Bei, even after his death... and I guess its because of the word, trustworthiness / integrity.

After watching the new serial of RTK, I feel more admiration for Cao Cao, than Liu Bei, as Cao Cao is a very focused person, very proactive, and is always the one setting the initiative. Whereas for Liu Bei, he was always at the reactive end, until he met his first advisor, XU. And Liu Bei only discovered that he needed a Advisor after 20 years of wandering around.... sad to say, what an idiot.

 

[Maximilian Chua-Heng]

Ep 33 finally Zhuge Liang making his entrance, Subok's idol. Don't say I neh tell you.


Watching now...

 

[Subok]

Thanks for this pointer.

I always think that Cao Cao is a mix of a very strong Chief Commander (大将军) coupled with an intelligence of a great Counsel (军师). Cao Cao by himself can plot strategies, and execute military warfare. He was a good politician as well.

However, being a great leader, he always seek a second opinion (from his 军师爷), although his mind is always made up, because he wants to be sure.

If you compare Zhuge Liang with Cao Cao, my view is that Zhuge Liang is a little arrogant, as there is no one to consult things with, because Zhuge Liang view himself as the most intelligent Chief Counsel of Liu Bei.

I find that Cao Cao in many ways is better than Zhuge Liang, further more, Cao Cao was one of the WARLORDS / KINGS of that era, and Zhuge Liang was only a 军师爷 of SHU, and the highest pinnacle was 宰相 or Prime Minister for Liu Bei's idiot son.

I always wondered why Zhuge Liang, when he was Prime Minister of SHU, he should have recruited many intelligent advisors, and built many strong generals, however, he was totally a failure in this, and worst, his student was really hopeless... making me doubt the true intelligence of Zhuge Liang.

In comparison, Cao Cao have handed a legacy to his son Cao Pi, however, was conspired against by SIMA YI, another GENERAL+ADVISOR mix, and eventually it was SIMA YI's grandson that took control of the CHINA EMPIRE.

Of the Romance of the 3 Kingdoms, I always thought Liu Bei as a total failure. And Cao Cao as the mightiest King. Too bad Cao Cao doesn't have Liu Bei's kindness or 仁慈. If Cao Cao have that, he would have been Emperor of China much swifter.

As we move away from personal preferences, as I had stated no matter how rightly or wrongly there will always be darth vader sympathizers. What's important is the legacy these individuals left behind that counts as what had happened had happened and it is up to each individual school of interpretations. But measure the legacy each left behind, and I believe that will override most of our preferences whether we like it or not.

The invention of crossbow?

Pragmatism is not something only we Singaporean are accustomed to. Even at the early years of formation of nations, countries and monarchies, most evolve over expansion of territorial control, natural resources and bottomline - money/gold. What set many of the Liu Bei's diehard generals Guan Yu Zhang Fei, Zhuge Liang apart other generals and warlords, I believe is, ASPIRATIONS, or vengeance with a purpose. While most serving in Cao Cao's camp were already established generals, well heeled and some already with rolls of "medals" on their armored breast to boast about. Liu Bei & gang were almost unknown, and some will go as far as they were just mere bandits! which is true to certain extend.

Now who would join these "bandits" however noble their cause is? Most seasoned generals would had fought many battles and won accolades with nick names like perhaps "Tiger" "Crane" "East wind" etc just to bluntly prove the point.

Even at one point he famous Yan Yan did not succumb to Liu Bei's army led by Zhang Fei, and would rather die than to be seen serving Liu Bei. The rest is history.

End of the day, in the eye of a result orientated Singaporean or many others as well, Liu Bei was a "Failure" and so is Zhuge Liang, or are they?

Theirs were legacy not confined within the palace walls and history book.

Lion Dance - Red Lion=Guan Yu, Black=Zhang Fei, Green=Liu Bei.. Guan Yu worshiped by people who believe in righteousness. (apparently Guan Yu is worshiped as patron God for both the police and gangster, wonder who he sides when both at odds? ehhehe)

Zhuge Liang, Liu Bei, etc have temples not just in Chengdu but all over china (apparently Wu Hou Shi has many "branches). They had became household name for brotherly love and righteousness.

Well if you would to insist on having them to hand in their report cards like those with Standard and Poor ratings, perhaps Liu Bei and gang did fare badly as compared to Cao Cao & company.

but I would want to pursue and believe that theirs were aspirations and believe in a higher good than simply wealth and riches. I would even go so far as to compare them to the Opposition Parties in Singapore.

Who dare to stand beyond the yellow line, display civil disobedience, to their White than white master and join the opposition camp however noble the oppositions aspirations in making Singapore more democratic?

 

[Alamaking]

Ep 33 finally Zhuge Liang making his entrance, Subok's idol. Don't say I neh tell you.


Watching now...

WHERE???!!!! I cant find it!!! :(

 

[Alamaking]

Ok Subok, lets have a healthy discussion with me (an empty vessel) regarding some of your opinions about 三国志. I appreciate that you admitted that Liu Bei and the hang fared badly compared with Cao Cao and the gang, Cao Cao is not a sore loser at all. Let talk about what you have said so far, please correct me if i'm wrong.

i'm a fan of Mr Yi Zhong Tian, his talks influence me to read more about the actual facts of 三国志, so most of my quotes will based on his analysis.

Yes, you are right, there are many temples for Liu Bei and Zhuge in China, but in one of Mr Yi Zhong Tian episode. He said the story of 三国志 can divide into 3 categories, 1st are from the actual people in that era, 2nd are the historicans like 陈寿, 裴松 and Mr Yi Zhong Tian himself, the 3rd are the 民间故事.

Among the 3 categories, he said 民间故事 is the most widely spread story among the 3, but he also said 民间故事 are highly untrue and fictionous among the 3. (Do you agree with this?)

So, according to you, 罗贯中(约1330—约1400)) 三国演义, falls into which category? To me it falls to the 3rd category, thats why many of incidents in 三国志演义 are fake. You know that 罗贯中 was a pro Liu Bei writer, 三国演义 (from 1400 - 2010), 610 years of story. Do you agree 三国演义 misguide, especially the younger generations, from the actual truth about 三国? How many of us (like you and me) would really go and read the version of 陈寿, 裴松 version? What are the ratio between us and them, when Movies, Drama TVs, radios, and online informations mostly featured 三国演义 but not the actual 三国志? 15:100?

Back to the temples, are the temples really for praying? or its just a tourist attraction? To those who are praying, do they really know the facts of 三国志? I can't answer it, nor you can.

Maybe this is a bad example, but i went to Hainan WuZhi Mountain, the tourist guide tell us how magnificent the mountain is, and there's a temple for us to pray, he said if dun feel like contribute money, dun contribute. But when we went up, everything are so money minded, take picture 50rmb (compulsory, cannot refuse), buy ticket to go into temples, the fucking monks tried to con my parents to buy 2 guanyin statues at USD2k. My father said dun have enough money, the monks says they can take credit cards, ccb :oIo::oIo::oIo:

Tourism in China to temples, history sites are big bucks earning places. You dun believe me, so be it

Talk about Cao Cao and Liu Bei.
1) Both have the same aim (Cao Cao initially) to restore Han. According to Mr Yi Zhong Tian, Cao Cao in his deathbed, dunno what he wants in his life in the end.
2) Both have great generals and strategist, mostly believed in restoring the Han serving their lords. (Cao Cao's Xun Yu and Xun You were beheaded for objecting Cao Cao becoming the emperor)
3) To me, Cao Cao's 挟天子以令诸侯 is the best strategy in 三国志
4) I'm not belittling Liu Bei, but being benevolence and righteous doesn't make you a great leader. If Liu Bei doesn't have the royal blood in him, whats the difference between him and a common guy? Maybe he 胸怀大志, but if he did not carry the flag using his royal status 刘皇叔 and restoring the Hans, do you think Zhuge and the rest will follow him?

Please quote me what Liu Bei had done to gain your admirations towards him. Thanks.

 

[eatshitndie]

The independent municipal and provincial status of Szechuan, its domestic consumption alone far exceeds that of Singapore's. Its geological advantage, including being situated in the centre of the "basin" of the surrounding mountains...

...look further into the political and economical fruit that transpired through the develops of Chengdu upon a man forthsight. Today Chengu is just ranked 3rd behind Beijing and Shanghai in many areas of developments. Only by keeping abreast with current affairs can the essence of the history deposited then be fully appreciated much like the cherry on the top of the ice cream.

great injection of terrain and economy into the picture. a good military strategist in ancient china would secure a sizable real estate that was defensible and foragable for his troops in terms of a long campaign. a good politician and economist in ancient china would secure the same estate for the establishment of a kingdom or base of operations. zgl must had seen the stalemate coming and land-grabbed two of the most valuable real estates of china at that time. today, szechuan is the food basket of china. i suppose it was also then. he must had also learned from the qin. the qin became powerful after a series of land reforms that resulted in the massive irrigation of land, which contributed to massive agriculture production, which in turn contributed to growth in population, which contributed to the formation of a massive army.

most folks forget that in the end, numbers or strength in numbers usually win when all else are equal or near the same level. to win a drawn out war or long military campaigns that span generations, a general needs troops and constant reinforcement of fresh troops. the north and south had traditionally dense population centers with manpower to feed the lines. zgl had the smallest army and had to basically start from scratch to raise one or two forces that could invade with strength. at such a disadvantage to start with, it was a remarkable feat that he conducted so many invasion campaigns.

at hindsight, he could have been more patient and massed an overwhelming force to achieve victory and "carry-thru'" instead of sending out puny suicidal missions. i think he was dead set on invading the north and rethrone an elderly liu bei ever-growing older, and time was not on his side. he must had been quietly incensed by his boss for going all-in with the precious build up of (se)men in doing a campaign of vengeance towards the south. even if he managed to regain the throne for the descendant of liu bei, he knew the dynasty would not last long... but he was resolutely dutibound... a righteous individual steeped in the ways of confucius.

it's like watching a 3-way ffa on starcraft 2 beta. the player in the middle with juicy buffer territories usually gets squashed from top and bottom, left and right.

 

[SNAblog]

Wah lau, why episode 33 so long 1?

You may try here:

http://www.dldzc.com/qvodyouku8/32576/

For me, I cannot get it to work on my IE, kept prompting me to update my flash.

 

[Alamaking]

You may try here:

http://www.dldzc.com/qvodyouku8/32576/

For me, I cannot get it to work on my IE, kept prompting me to update my flash.

Cant see, not using IE, they only support IE :(:( but thanks NSA, you the best