New Romance of 3 Kingdom serial drama is out

[Sperminator]

Talk about Cao Cao and Liu Bei.
1) Both have the same aim (Cao Cao initially) to restore Han. According to Mr Yi Zhong Tian, Cao Cao in his deathbed, dunno what he wants in his life in the end.
2) Both have great generals and strategist, mostly believed in restoring the Han serving their lords. (Cao Cao's Xun Yu and Xun You were beheaded for objecting Cao Cao becoming the emperor)
3) To me, Cao Cao's 挟天子以令诸侯 is the best strategy in 三国志
4) I'm not belittling Liu Bei, but being benevolence and righteous doesn't make you a great leader. If Liu Bei doesn't have the royal blood in him, whats the difference between him and a common guy? Maybe he 胸怀大志, but if he did not carry the flag using his royal status 刘皇叔 and restoring the Hans, do you think Zhuge and the rest will follow him?

Please quote me what Liu Bei had done to gain your admirations towards him. Thanks.

I really share the same views as you.

For point 4, this is the most important point.

Liu Bei, if he don't have the royal blood status, I doubt Guan Yu or Zhang Fei would become brothers with him in the first place.

If you noticed, Liu Bei's thinking and strategies were easily manipulated for the first 20 years of his career in rebuilding the HAN DYNASTY.

Until he found his first Advisor... things begin to change, and only then his first Advisor, after was being recalled to XU CHANG by Cao Cao (via his brilliant strategy) Conned Xu into believing that his mother was in the prison of Xu Chang..., gave Liu Bei's the most important advise, was to hunt and look for Zhuge Kong Ming...

Only then Liu Bei's strategy start to improve...

From my observation, Liu Bei depends so much on other's thinking that he is totally reliant... Liu Bei is not brilliant at all in any case.

So, to those who think that we are Darth Vader Sympathizers, I would very well agree with you, because, Liu Bei's ability have nothing admirable about it. It's Cao Cao's varied abilities that really made one think, is there such a man today?

Of course, if you want to compare 仁慈, 善良, 义气 then Liu Bei scored 100% against Cao Cao, and Cao Cao only scored perhaps in a range of 70% to 80%... then Cao Cao is truly no match to Liu Bei on this.

However, Liu Bei if he persue his life like a SAINT, then why fight in a military, killing soldiers of your enemy, and the soldiers were all innocent, as they were conscripted by Liu's enemy... but he still had to kill doesn't he?

To each his own, everyone is entitled to their own view, as I realized that, as I grow older, and as I watched RTK again, and again, I realized that the truly successful do not worry about what other's think about them, as they do not need approval from others... that is Cao Cao.

I did hypothized on this scenario, if Cao Cao & Liu Bei could live up to 200 years, I would believe that it's only Cao Cao that could re-unify China, and Liu Bei would be slaughtered eventually... try it on your RTK computer game, and let the computer fight it out and see it for yourself.

 

[Alamaking]

Episode 33 here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjY1ZXphVoI

 

[Subok]

Ok Subok, lets have a healthy discussion with me (an empty vessel) regarding some of your opinions about 三国志. I appreciate that you admitted that Liu Bei and the hang fared badly compared with Cao Cao and the gang, Cao Cao is not a sore loser at all. Let talk about what you have said so far, please correct me if i'm wrong.

i'm a fan of Mr Yi Zhong Tian, his talks influence me to read more about the actual facts of 三国志, so most of my quotes will based on his analysis.

Yes, you are right, there are many temples for Liu Bei and Zhuge in China, but in one of Mr Yi Zhong Tian episode. He said the story of 三国志 can divide into 3 categories, 1st are from the actual people in that era, 2nd are the historicans like 陈寿, 裴松 and Mr Yi Zhong Tian himself, the 3rd are the 民间故事.

Among the 3 categories, he said 民间故事 is the most widely spread story among the 3, but he also said 民间故事 are highly untrue and fictionous among the 3. (Do you agree with this?)

So, according to you, 罗贯中(约1330—约1400)) 三国演义, falls into which category? To me it falls to the 3rd category, thats why many of incidents in 三国志演义 are fake. You know that 罗贯中 was a pro Liu Bei writer, 三国演义 (from 1400 - 2010), 610 years of story. Do you agree 三国演义 misguide, especially the younger generations, from the actual truth about 三国? How many of us (like you and me) would really go and read the version of 陈寿, 裴松 version? What are the ratio between us and them, when Movies, Drama TVs, radios, and online informations mostly featured 三国演义 but not the actual 三国志? 15:100?

Back to the temples, are the temples really for praying? or its just a tourist attraction? To those who are praying, do they really know the facts of 三国志? I can't answer it, nor you can.

Maybe this is a bad example, but i went to Hainan WuZhi Mountain, the tourist guide tell us how magnificent the mountain is, and there's a temple for us to pray, he said if dun feel like contribute money, dun contribute. But when we went up, everything are so money minded, take picture 50rmb (compulsory, cannot refuse), buy ticket to go into temples, the fucking monks tried to con my parents to buy 2 guanyin statues at USD2k. My father said dun have enough money, the monks says they can take credit cards, ccb :oIo::oIo::oIo:

Tourism in China to temples, history sites are big bucks earning places. You dun believe me, so be it

Talk about Cao Cao and Liu Bei.
1) Both have the same aim (Cao Cao initially) to restore Han. According to Mr Yi Zhong Tian, Cao Cao in his deathbed, dunno what he wants in his life in the end.
2) Both have great generals and strategist, mostly believed in restoring the Han serving their lords. (Cao Cao's Xun Yu and Xun You were beheaded for objecting Cao Cao becoming the emperor)
3) To me, Cao Cao's 挟天子以令诸侯 is the best strategy in 三国志
4) I'm not belittling Liu Bei, but being benevolence and righteous doesn't make you a great leader. If Liu Bei doesn't have the royal blood in him, whats the difference between him and a common guy? Maybe he 胸怀大志, but if he did not carry the flag using his royal status 刘皇叔 and restoring the Hans, do you think Zhuge and the rest will follow him?

Please quote me what Liu Bei had done to gain your admirations towards him. Thanks.

Not that I am not keen to have a discourse with you. As I had repeatedly stated that will be a divide no matter what. I did not think that Liu Bei & gang is superior that anyone BUT what I am against are bigots that deny his place in history championing the in my opinion the "evil" of history. If a leader stoop to kill his own family members, his own soldiers who bled and fought for him, is a HERO in your point of view and accomplished much then I do not think in anyway I would want to be in the same pedestal as your wavelength.

This is an inherent 66% of Singaporean mentality of result orientation and pragmatism over civil freedom. What Cao Cao, He Sheng and Wu Sangui, Yuan shikai had accomplished is liken to what PAP had done to Singapore. Accomplished, Established, Institutionalized, and bureaucratized.

Whichever of the 3 or 4 or 5 categories you had stated, you already missed where I evolve my choice over. It is a combination of all. Like Ramseth and myself were digressing a bit regarding the importance of novelist in the political change as well as historians.

What is black and white are usually made so by those in power. Yet despite the growing disadvantages against the Liu's gang. Their tenacity rise above history, geography and politics. That is why i stated Chengdu as a living "fossilized" proof of their legacy while many like Cao Cao has almost nothing.

And again I also keep saying not ONCE but many times, Cao Cao is a Statesman deserving of a STAR in the Statesmen Walk of Fame -that is your cavity above your brainstem understands what is this satirical statement meant.

It may sound lame but if I can to encapsulate the whole idea in a single statement - winners are not those standing on the pedestal (though the gold medals are around their neck like Cao Cao etc) but those who never give up trying despite all odds stack against them.

If you are a punter, an average punter in fact most punter or most of Singaporean 66% punters stake on the one that "cannot win big but definitely WILL NOT LOSE" mentality, will favor Cao Cao - an accomplished statesman with all resources within his grasp to be the one uniting and put the house in order.

BUT I put in to you - Liu Bei and gang with little or almost NO resources ended somewhat just behind Cao Cao while Sima Yi took all on the table. Now tell me, was Cao Cao that great after all?

YOU are pitting Cao Cao a thorough bred against Liu Bei the unknown in a race, heralding that Cao Cao is as great if not GREATER than Zhuge Liang and Liu Bei. Yet both did not finish the race DESPITE Cao Cao having ALL the resources, ARMY, IMPERIAL ANOINTMENT, BARRACKS of SKILLED and SEASONED WARRIORS, SCHOOL of MILITARY G6 OFFICERS, large ARRAYS of WEAPONRY, SUPPORT of DSTA etc just to boaster your HERO, YET

YET

YET

YET

YET!!! x 1000000000000000


Cao Cao did not finish the race as you would wish him to.


Therefore the onus is ON you to state HOW CAO CAO is a HERO to you rather than I show you why Liu Bei and his scumbags are my chosen heroes.

 

[Alamaking]

And again, as usual, you talked a lot, comparing this and that, Chengdu again lah, Yuan Shi Kai again lah, 66% again lah, but never get to the point of my questions. I think people who wants to know more about San Guo will never learn anything from your "too cheem" analysis.

Sorry for being blunt, but "i dunno what the fuck you are talking about", cox its too long and irrelevant, LOL

Thank you for your time replying my questions, next time please dun write too long, i'll get tired reading irrelevant stuffs, get straight to the point next time please, thank you

 

[Alamaking]

Episode 33 here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjY1ZXphVoI

http://www.youtube.com/user/Loveyoyouk#p/u
This link have episode 38!!!

 

[Subok]

And again, as usual, you talked a lot, comparing this and that, Chengdu again lah, Yuan Shi Kai again lah, 66% again lah, but never get to the point of my questions. I think people who wants to know more about San Guo will never learn anything from your "too cheem" analysis.

Sorry for being blunt, but "i dunno what the fuck you are talking about", cox its too long and irrelevant, LOL

Thank you for your time replying my questions, next time please dun write too long, i'll get tired reading irrelevant stuffs, get straight to the point next time please, thank you

''

When one stoop as low as vulgarity.. it speaks as much as his language represents and his professed hero.

Thank you for all doubts are answered.

 

[Sperminator]

Thank you for your time replying my questions, next time please dun write too long, i'll get tired reading irrelevant stuffs, get straight to the point next time please, thank you

Dear Alamaking, you are right.

Anyways, everyone is truly entitled of their views.

When I was in my teens, I jump to conclusion easily, and before really finding the facts, I would fixate my opinion.

I thought Liu Bei was the Hero, in fact there were none.

Only as I grow older, and relook at RTK, I realized that the truly capable person (In this case, I talk about person only), in the entire RTK was Cao Cao.

We are here to discuss ONLY about RTK right? So, I suggest perhaps we don't really go too far away, and link everything from different countries to different time frame, it'll truly confuse this thread.

By the way Alamaking, care to share with us, what do you like most about Liu Bei, Sun Quan, and Cao Cao? And what do you dislike most about these 3 core characters of RTK?

 

[Alamaking]

''

When one stoop as low as vulgarity.. it speaks as much as his language represents and his professed hero.

Thank you for all doubts are answered.

No problem, i got nothing to say about one who believed in 5 tigers generals and saying Liu Bei's wife is Xiao Qiao also. Straight forward question also beat around the bush, haiizz, really speechles, thank you for your time

 

[Sperminator]

since when Liu Bei's wife is Xiao Qiao?

 

[Alamaking]

By the way Alamaking, care to share with us, what do you like most about Liu Bei, Sun Quan, and Cao Cao? And what do you dislike most about these 3 core characters of RTK?

Spermy, did you watch 百家讲坛 易中天品三国?

Watch the show, you will learn a lot about 三国 characters
http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=8349636

When you watch finish, then we exchange point of views. If i said now hor, someone will say i'm a moron leh

 

[Sperminator]

Dear Alamaking,

Thanks for sharing this link, I'll go and take a good look at it first, and I'll like to learn more from you.

Keep on going! "I'll be back"

 

[Sperminator]

Spermy, did you watch 百家讲坛 易中天品三国?

Watch the show, you will learn a lot about 三国 characters
http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=8349636

When you watch finish, then we exchange point of views. If i said now hor, someone will say i'm a moron leh

Wow! this is really an entire educational based, focused on RTK characters! Thanks for this pointer! there is 59 chapters!!! Guess it'll take me about a few months before I can finish it.

Thanks again!

 

[Alamaking]

since when Liu Bei's wife is Xiao Qiao?

You ask Subok lor, he said 1, LOL

 

[Wang Ye]

Spermy, did you watch 百家讲坛 易中天品三国?

Watch the show, you will learn a lot about 三国 characters
http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=8349636

When you watch finish, then we exchange point of views. If i said now hor, someone will say i'm a moron leh

Dear Alamaking,

Thanks for sharing this link, I'll go and take a good look at it first, and I'll like to learn more from you.

Keep on going! "I'll be back"

Heehee looks like I am the only one who has completely watched the whole lot.

So sad, never ask to exchange points of view with me :(

 

[elephanto]

Johnny Kong said: Food, color, sex yeah ! (食色性也）

so, Alamaking, you did not answer my earlier query...
like all Men past & future & future, Cao Cao one horny cheekopek also right?
I mentioned he ever shared women with his children, am i right ?
my memory a bit hazy, during expeditions against Yuan Su / Yuan Shao or something like that ..... please go for 360 degree discussion on these historical figures ..... their sex lives included

 

[Alamaking]

Heehee looks like I am the only one who has completely watched the whole lot.

So sad, never ask to exchange points of view with me :(

LOL Wang Ye
Got check my link? episode 38 liao

 

[Alamaking]

Johnny Kong said: Food, color, sex yeah ! (食色性也）

so, Alamaking, you did not answer my earlier query...
like all Men past & future & future, Cao Cao one horny cheekopek also right?
I mentioned he ever shared women with his children, am i right ?
my memory a bit hazy, during expeditions against Yuan Su / Yuan Shao or something like that ..... please go for 360 degree discussion on these historical figures ..... their sex lives included

Yah, Cao Cao if i'm not wrong hor, sleeps with his uncle's wife LOL

曹操曾占了何晏的母亲、何进的媳妇，又占了张绣的婶母 - from the internet, dunno true or not, LOL

 

[Ramseth]

Liu Bei was one of the worst military commanders in the Three Kingdoms. He practically lost every battle when not advised by Zhuge Liang, Pang Tong or Xu Su. He should have been killed long ago if not protected by his two brave warriors, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei. His reputation was based on righteousness and rightfulness (being of royal blood). As politician, he was also mostly clueless about what's going on.

The refusal to takeover Jingzhou on first offer from Liu Biao looked like an act of righteousness, when everybody else in the game wanted it badly. However, it's simply allowed to happen as Zhuge Liang didn't insist otherwise; might as well play along to let Liu Bei bask in the glory of righteousness for the time being.

That reason why Liu Biao, also no angel, wanted to hand over Jingzhou then, was to let Cao Cao crush Liu Bei, then he come back to negotiate for peace as rightful owner without bearing shame of defeat or surrender without a fight.

Zhuge Liang of course saw through it would be suicidal folly to take over Jingzhou at an oncoming Cao Cao army. However, behind a fleeing Cao Cao army after Red Cliff, Zhuge Liang signalled green light and Liu Bei had no qualm taking over Jingzhou since he was retaking in under Liu imperial family name from invader Cao Cao.

If Wu was allowed to take over Jingzhou then, there'd be no Three Kingdoms. It'd be North-South Dynasties, Two Kingdoms only, with Liu Bei completely sidelined without foothold; sooner than later being eliminated, with or without Zhuge Liang.

 

[Wang Ye]

Johnny Kong said: Food, color, sex yeah ! (食色性也）

so, Alamaking, you did not answer my earlier query...
like all Men past & future & future, Cao Cao one horny cheekopek also right?
I mentioned he ever shared women with his children, am i right ?
my memory a bit hazy, during expeditions against Yuan Su / Yuan Shao or something like that ..... please go for 360 degree discussion on these historical figures ..... their sex lives included

Yup. Cao Cao was one who loved pretty girls. Sharing of women with his children not likely.

Just to name a few of his tiko exploits (historical and novel has been indicated) :

1) Zhang Xiu's widowed aunt was taken in by Cao Cao causing Zhang Xiu to revolt because of the insult (according to the novel). Thereby causing the deaths of Dian Wei, Cao Ang and Cao Anming.

2) The widow of Yuan Xi (Zhen Ji mother of Cao Rui) was supposedly desired by Cao Cao but too bad for him Cao Pi got there first. (according to novel but historically Cao Pi did get there first)

3) Cao Cao breaking his word to Guan Yu to award him this beauty who was the wife of one of Lu Bu's general (un-recogised history). Accordingly Cao Cao got curious and went to see the girl himself. Upon which he kept her for himself.

4) Cao Cao's harem included song girls (the mother of Cao Pi, Cao Zhang, Cao Zhi and Cao Xiong was one), widows ... Basically any pretty girl he could get his hands on.

5) The southern campaign was just to get Da Qiao and Xiao Qiao.

 

[elephanto]

Yah, Cao Cao if i'm not wrong hor, sleeps with his uncle's wife LOL

Cao Pi & poet-genius-bro Cao Zhi also share favourite woman 甄氏, no ?
I think Dian Wei got injured while defending Cao Cao when he is fucking one the warlord's wife (Warlord Zhang something) in the camp also....

Liu Bei also "Old Cow eat young grass" when he marry Sun Quan's sister ....