Mother-tongue policy undermines education and our future - Good Article

[Rogue Trader]

I have to correct you on one thing. Many europeans can speak 2 or more languages. Bilingualism is not unique to singapore.

A Swiss of viet origin told me that he had to learn THREE languages in school. German, French and Italian.

Most dutch can speak english (taught as second langualge in school) comfortably, in fact better than many of us. Just compare their footballers interviews with ours!

Can't really compare directly. Bi- or tri-lingualism of european languages is less complicated because they are share latin roots. Chinese and english are very different languages.
That said, my support is with the bilingual education in singapore. it has helped me with my career and personal development.

 

[littlefish]

It is not just about Asians. Australians, New Zealanders, Americans, British... all the same. It is not really "discrimination" but rather the pride that they take in their own culture and expectation of others to be so as well.

My simple questions to you are: Does having pride in one's culture mean you have to be able to speak and write in that language EXCELLENTLY? What exactly is the culture of SG? Is it totally Chinese or Malay or Indian or others? If not, why the insistence that we attain a minimum level of proficiency in second languages? Why not go further and insist everyone, including minorities be proficient in Chinese and use it to replace English's position? The whole attitude smacks of chauvinism and discrimination.

Countries like US, Oz, NZ, Taiwan have a language that is alien to that of the original natives because they implemented it by force. Are you saying we should also do that for Chinese now? If yes, then I will agree that everyone must be proficient in Chinese.

 

[scroobal]

The issue is not bilingualism or multi-linguism. Anyone with proficiency with more than one language has a comparative language advantage.

There are 2 core issues here

1) The entire academic curriculumn hinges on bilingualism. Singaporeans therefore pay a high price compared to any other country in the world. Especially so if someone is not linguistically inclined.

2) The push for bilingualism has not raised the standard of English but in fact the standard of written and spoken English has deteriorated that there is a clear distinction between Singaporeans who were taught under the previous system and those who were taught under the policy of bilingualism.

Here an interesting piece of discussion that floated around the legal fratenity recently. Many were commenting when Walter Woon was appointed AG that he would be the last Singaporean AG to have excellent command of the the English language as the next appointee would certainly come from the Bilingual curriculumn era.

When Menon's appointment wa announced, as predicted, he was indeed from the pioneering batch of school kids that had bilingualism front and centre. Anyone who has met he man will know that he command of the language is also exceptional, both written and spoke. What many are not aware is that Menon was given an exemption as he commenced his education overseas as his father was with the foreign service and he completed his Singapore education without taking a mother tongue language.

Anyone with half a brian would realise by now that Bilingualism is to capture the Chinese educated votes. The Chinese teachers union is a powerful faction within the PAP cadres and has always one MP seat asssigned to it. One PM came from this faction but interestingly his Mandarin is weak.

The end result is that no education system should have one subject having such weightage and influence during a child's formative years.

One has to be simple minded to think that Mandarin is the answer to engage China. Do what the Australians who are notoriously monolingual compared to other Eurpopean or 1st world country do. They simplely engage interpreters or Chinese staff who have a good command of English and excellent in their native mandarin. There is also an advantage, when there are allegations of bribery, the Chinese who acted as go between goes to jail.

They are certainly not going to engage a Singaporean with poor english and poor mandarin to do it for them.

 

[Received_by_Kings]

this mix language of Singaporeans is like codes.

A Chinese will be confused listening to Singaporeans talking.

A English will be confused listening to Singaporean talking.

perhaps this is an unintentional perk of being a Singaporean.

No wonder Singaporeans are aliens to the rest of the world.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

As I have said, it is not up to us to think otherwise, that's what other people think at large.

We all know in Singapore we do not share a common culture, if there is really any. Singlish is the only distinctive lingo we have in Singapore. However, people in China do not understand this. They just look at you, Chinese but not able to speak Chinese.

I would be happy to eradicate the requirement of second language but I would want to maintain Mother Tongue language curriculum at a respectable standards here. It is not going to do us good to force people like you to take Chinese but at the same time, we need to reduce the standards to extremely low level just to make sure everybody is happy and able to cope with it. But the catch is this, you or your children will have to be subjected to such strange looks from people in this globalized world.

You didn't get the drift. People, especially Chinese PRCs or Japanese, would expect a Chinese to at least speak Mandarin. They won't expect a "minority" to speak Mandarin. i.e. Not a Malay or Indian to speak Mandarin. It is a kind of subtle cultural expectation from them.

And the thing is this. You or your children could well pick up English any time later in life, but Chinese is hard to be learned when you pass 6 years old. It has to do with the character-based structure of Chinese while English is basically alphabet-based. In terms of phonetics, Mandarin is based on different structure which stress on 4-5 tones while English is based on phonetic combination only.

If you are happy not to learn Chinese, so be it. And I think the state/government, shouldn't force you to do it. On the other hand, I wouldn't force anyone who do not want to learn English to do it as well. I am pretty liberal on this issue. Open up the language options, as I say. I am even open to having English as second language if people chose to do so. But would you agree to such options?

Goh Meng Seng

My simple questions to you are: Does having pride in one's culture mean you have to be able to speak and write in that language EXCELLENTLY? What exactly is the culture of SG? Is it totally Chinese or Malay or Indian or others? If not, why the insistence that we attain a minimum level of proficiency in second languages? Why not go further and insist everyone, including minorities be proficient in Chinese and use it to replace English's position? The whole attitude smacks of chauvinism and discrimination.

Countries like US, Oz, NZ, Taiwan have a language that is alien to that of the original natives because they implemented it by force. Are you saying we should also do that for Chinese now? If yes, then I will agree that everyone must be proficient in Chinese.

 

[Char_Azn]

You are certainly the bigger fool here. Tell me, was the entire population speaking Mandarin fluently a few decades ago? For the sake of educating you, I will tell you that most people back in those days could not even write in Chinese. I will bet my bottom dollar you could hardly even hear a word of Mandarin in those times. Chinese in its current form in SG is a supplanted language. Don't make me laugh by comparing with countries like Japan and Thailand where they have been using their languagues for many centuries.

I have no problems with having all Chinese in SG learn Mandarin Chinese. What I am against is discriminating against those who can't excel in it when it is not being used as the medium of instruction. Are we then to discriminate against the minorities who can't speak Mandarin/Chinese? The fact is that SG can't force everyone to use Mandarin/Chinese in their everyday lives, so why set the bar to force people to attain minimum standards in the language? Same goes for the other second languages.

Since when I have discriminate against those who cant excel in Chinese. The local Chinese standard required to pass the exams here is pathetic to begin with and all I am saying is that everyone should have at least a conversational level able to accomplish basic communication between each other.

U were the elitist chauvinist pig who expect everyone to be able to converse in a very high level of English. It's funny how U can turn around and accuse me of discriminating someone of not being able to speak a high level of Chinese

Just in case U need a reminder, this was from your own post

I will tell you for a fact that if you can't speak proper English in most English-speaking countries, you will be lumped together with third-world refugees when applying for jobs (of course, this doesn't matter much if you are not seeking employment in these countries or if you are rich enough to hire your own interpreters).

 

[littlefish]

We all know in Singapore we do not share a common culture, if there is really any. Singlish is the only distinctive lingo we have in Singapore. However, people in China do not understand this. They just look at you, Chinese but not able to speak Chinese.

I would be happy to eradicate the requirement of second language but I would want to maintain Mother Tongue language curriculum at a respectable standards here. It is not going to do us good to force people like you to take Chinese but at the same time, we need to reduce the standards to extremely low level just to make sure everybody is happy and able to cope with it. But the catch is this, you or your children will have to be subjected to such strange looks from people in this globalized world.

You didn't get the drift. People, especially Chinese PRCs or Japanese, would expect a Chinese to at least speak Mandarin. They won't expect a "minority" to speak Mandarin. i.e. Not a Malay or Indian to speak Mandarin. It is a kind of subtle cultural expectation from them.

And the thing is this. You or your children could well pick up English any time later in life, but Chinese is hard to be learned when you pass 6 years old. It has to do with the character-based structure of Chinese while English is basically alphabet-based. In terms of phonetics, Mandarin is based on different structure which stress on 4-5 tones while English is based on phonetic combination only.

If you are happy not to learn Chinese, so be it. And I think the state/government, shouldn't force you to do it. On the other hand, I wouldn't force anyone who do not want to learn English to do it as well. I am pretty liberal on this issue. Open up the language options, as I say. I am even open to having English as second language if people chose to do so. But would you agree to such options?

Again, you are saying that we need to be worried about what others think. Are we Singaporeans first or PRC Chinese first? Even in Taiwan, you will find people who absolutely hate Mandarin.

You are not understanding me correctly. I am not against learning Chinese at all. What I am against is discrimination based solely on your command of a second language. What is the point of forcing someone to score well in a second language in order to advance academically when no other subjects are taught in that language?

Let me give you an example of how others see SG. When I was in a restaurant in Europe, it had menus in all kinds of languages. Naturally, the waiter asked me where I was from. When I said SG, he handed me the English menu. People don't care what is your mother tongue, they are only concerned about what is your national language.

Chauvinists like PRC Chinese are so hated because they practice discrimination so rampantly. Even if the discrimination do not manifest in safety issues, it is still very detestable. Are you saying we need to follow the practice of PRC? Even if you can speak Mandarin perfectly (unless you can change your accent according to the region you are in), I assure you that you will still be discriminated against in PRC when push comes to shove.

 

[littlefish]

U were the elitist chauvinist pig who expect everyone to be able to converse in a very high level of English. It's funny how U can turn around and accuse me of discriminating someone of not being able to speak a high level of Chinese

Just in case U need a reminder, this was from your own post

Your statement shows your inferiority complex. You are more concerned about what others think of you than what you think of yourself. Confidence does not come from knowing how to speak your mother tongue, it comes from knowing who you are. I will tell you for a fact that if you can't speak proper English in most English-speaking countries, you will be lumped together with third-world refugees when applying for jobs (of course, this doesn't matter much if you are not seeking employment in these countries or if you are rich enough to hire your own interpreters).

You are a real idiot. Did I say I discriminate against those who can't speak English properly? I am saying that if you want to try making a living in countries that mainly speak English, it will be hard because speaking English properly is a basic requirement in those countries. You seem to have problems in comprehension.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I think you have mistaken me. As I have said, if you are not Chinese, why are you taking it?

In fact, I recognize the fact that many Singaporeans do not consider Chinese as their mother tongue and I say, they should have the liberty to choose not study it. But as with every choice make, there will be consequences: it is not how we look at ourselves but rather, the reality out there in the world will be such, you will be looked down upon. Not only from PRCs but from Koreans, Japanese and even Britons and Americans.

This is a careful choice you will have to make for your children. Normally, I will always put up the pros and cons of such choices.

I say, open up the language options. Those who want to concentrate on English, please do so. Those who want to concentrate on Chinese, Malay, French, Tamil, Japanese, Korean... please do so as well. The catch is, there will be English as second language here. Are we game enough for such changes?

We are a globalized city with many mixe marriages between different races; apart from the main 4 races in Singapore, there are a growing group of foreign races. It is about time we re-look in this English-centric education system. There is no necessity to enforce requirement of any language as the dominant ones and that include English.

Game enough to take up this plan?

Goh Meng Seng

Again, you are saying that we need to be worried about what others think. Are we Singaporeans first or PRC Chinese first? Even in Taiwan, you will find pockets who absolutely hate Mandarin.

You are not understanding me correctly. I am not against learning Chinese at all. What I am against is discrimination based solely on your command of a second language. What is the point of forcing someone to score well in a second language in order to advance academically when no other subjects are taught in that language?

Let me give you an example of how others see SG. When I was in a restaurant in Europe, it had menus in all kinds of languages. Naturally, the waiter asked me where I was from. When I said SG, he handed me the English menu. People don't care what is your mother tongue, they are only concerned about what is your national language.

Chauvinists like PRC Chinese are so hated because they practice discrimination so rampantly. Even if the discrimination do not manifest in safety issues, it is still very detestable. Are you saying we need to follow the practice of PRC? Even if you can speak Mandarin perfectly (unless you can change your accent according to the region you are in), I assure you that you will still be discriminated against in PRC when push comes to shove.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

You are a real idiot. Did I say I discriminate against those who can't speak English properly? I am saying that if you want to try making a living in countries that mainly speak English, it will be hard because speaking English properly is a basic requirement in those countries. You seem to have problems in comprehension.

The thing is this, while you feel that PRC are chauvinist in demanding a Singapore Chinese to speak Mandarin in their land, why wouldn't you feel discriminated in these countries who require you to speak properly English as chauvinist? I don't understand your self-contradiction.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[littlefish]

I say, open up the language options. Those who want to concentrate on English, please do so. Those who want to concentrate on Chinese, Malay, French, Tamil, Japanese, Korean... please do so as well. The catch is, there will be English as second language here. Are we game enough for such changes?

We are a globalized city with many mixe marriages between different races; apart from the main 4 races in Singapore, there are a growing group of foreign races. It is about time we re-look in this English-centric education system. There is no necessity to enforce requirement of any language as the dominant ones and that include English.

Game enough to take up this plan?

You are certainly not getting my point. I disagree with your plan. English has to be the first and national language in SG. I would certainly approve of all Chinese learning Chinese/Mandarin. What I want to be eradicated is the requirement that everyone must have a good command of the second language before they are allowed to advance academically. This is a form of discrimination even if it is not obvious. It is like saying, yes, you are qualified for the job but I can't hire you because your skin colour is not white enough or you are too fat (or some characteristic that has nothing to do with whether you can perform the job).

 

[littlefish]

The thing is this, while you feel that PRC are chauvinist in demanding a Singapore Chinese to speak Mandarin in their land, why wouldn't you feel discriminated in these countries who require you to speak properly English as chauvinist? I don't understand your self-contradiction.

There is no contradiction. If you are making a living in China, by all means, make sure you have a good command of the language. What I am saying is, if I am working in SG, why should a PRC come and tell me that I am second-class because I can't speak Chinese well. If I have to work in China, you can bet that I will be working my ass off making sure I am proficient in Chinese. I am just realistic that the conditions in PRC will be such that even if I can speak Mandarin perfectly, there will still be discrimination because I am not a local. The same goes for the Angmoh countries but they have better laws controlling such discrimination.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

You are certainly not getting my point. I disagree with your plan. English has to be the first and national language in SG. I would certainly approve of all Chinese learning Chinese/Mandarin. What I want to be eradicated is the requirement that everyone must have a good command of the second language before they are allowed to advance academically. This is a form of discrimination even if it is not obvious. It is like saying, yes, you are qualified for the job but I can't hire you because your skin colour is not white enough or you are too fat (or some characteristic that has nothing to do with whether you can perform the job).

Why would you want English to be first and national language in SG? When 3 of the 4 races are non-latin based? A form of chauvinism or what?

Don't worry, I understand where you are coming from but the truth is, when it comes to language and race, it will get just a bit touchy. I don't think English would be the most important language; the most spoken language in the world is Spanish, not English. Arabic is also widely spoken. Mandarin, naturally with the size of the PRC population, is important as well.

And we have four official National Languages, not just one.

English is just convenient because of our economic built up: the dependence on Western Based MNCs. Yes, it comes back to economic viability, nothing else. But the world is changing very rapidly and the shifting of paradigm has started 10 years ago.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

There is no contradiction. If you are making a living in China, by all means, make sure you have a good command of the language. What I am saying is, if I am working in SG, why should a PRC come and tell me that I am second-class because I can't speak Chinese well. If I have to work in China, you can bet that I will be working my ass off making sure I am proficient in Chinese. I am just realistic that the conditions in PRC will be such that even if I can speak Mandarin perfectly, there will still be discrimination because I am not a local. The same goes for the Angmoh countries but they have better laws controlling such discrimination.

Actually, that is what Hong Kongers thought just a few years back. Why should they "succumb" to PRC's pressure to speak Mandarin with them? They even look down and despise them. 2003 recession changed all that. Now every sales men and women on the street is luring PRC customers with polished Mandarin. That's economic reality as well.

Nothing wrong with that. If one day, our economy all depends on Chinese investment, tourists and workers, we will have no choice but to speak their lingo. Just like we did to the Western MNCs. There is nothing chauvinistic about it, just economic pragmatism.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[littlefish]

Why would you want English to be first and national language in SG? When 3 of the 4 races are non-latin based? A form of chauvinism or what?

I would certainly be very interested to see how you are going to implement another language besides English as the national lnanguage. Pray tell us which language you prefer to be the national language.

 

[littlefish]

Actually, that is what Hong Kongers thought just a few years back. Why should they "succumb" to PRC's pressure to speak Mandarin with them? They even look down and despise them. 2003 recession changed all that. Now every sales men and women on the street is luring PRC customers with polished Mandarin. That's economic reality as well.

Nothing wrong with that. If one day, our economy all depends on Chinese investment, tourists and workers, we will have no choice but to speak their lingo. Just like we did to the Western MNCs. There is nothing chauvinistic about it, just economic pragmatism.

English was chosen because no other language would be acceptable to all races. The fact that it helped us economically is simply a convenient secondary side-effect.

HK is part of PRC. Are you suggesting we should also be part of PRC? Your kind of thinking is exactly why SG has no soul. We are simply chasing after whoever has $$$ and prostrating ourselves in the process. It is no wonder SGreans are not a respected lot.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I would certainly be very interested to see how you are going to implement another language besides English as the national lnanguage. Pray tell us which language you prefer to be the national language.

As I have said, there are 4 official National Languages, not one.

I would not restrict English as the dominant language as you do. I may even have University that concentrate on multi-language studies, instead of solely dependent on one, English.

The Finnish learned 4 languages, not by mere choice but by economic necessity. Russian is one of the 4 languages. As a trading port and a country that depends heavily on trade, it is only logical for us to be linguistically proficient. In the past, America and Briton may be our main trading partners, but look at the change in the trade balance. It is changing, very fast.

English is useful for acquire other knowledge, no doubt about that. But in terms of importance in economic terms, it may not be so in the coming decades.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

English was chosen because no other language would be acceptable to all races. The fact that it helped us economically is simply a convenient secondary side-effect.

HK is part of PRC. Are you suggesting we should also be part of PRC?

While we may just brush away HK is part of PRC as the reason, but deep down, it is more complex. HK wants to keep its own identity and that is why Cantonese is still the defecto spoken language. AND PRCs cannot just walk into HK just like that; they still need to pass through custom.

It is not merely coincident nor convenient secondary side-effect. IT IS THE PRIMARY CONCERNS since the concept of open free trade economy is set as the main economic strategy.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Char_Azn]

You are a real idiot. Did I say I discriminate against those who can't speak English properly? I am saying that if you want to try making a living in countries that mainly speak English, it will be hard because speaking English properly is a basic requirement in those countries. You seem to have problems in comprehension.

U dimwit, if U are living in that country for a decent enough amount of time speaking the local language EVERYDAY, U will also be able to at least be able to converse frequently at a basic level. I am talking about the subject in SG context which is what it is all about. It's not Australian Education board or American one that expects their citizen to learn Chinese, it is the SG one, the country most of us are living in, just in case u have left.

I do not agree with GMS on the cultural aspect of things, I am looking at this from a pragmatic point. Knowing 2 languages even at rudimentary level is better then 1. Personally I can speak read and write Japanese at a basic level. I cannot speak Japanese well enough to save my life however my command of the language is enough to let me know when the Jap Vendors/Customers are trying to have a "private talk in Japanese" during a meeting and look through important contracts or license agreements before we sign them.

You may think that having half ass English and Chinese is not good enough to engage in either however from personal experience the fact is knowing both is better then knowing only one!!! When I first started engaging China men, they were speaking so fast and with such heavy accent that I can't even understand them. However because I already have a basic command of the language, it is easy to play catch up especially when I have to due with the constantly

Which takes us back to the first example. The same goes for a person having to live in Australia for example. The SG guy who migrated there may speak Singlish but because they already have a base to work with he should be able to get to a decent conversational level of English given time.

The easy way out is of coz to get an interpreter.
However, if why do we even need to do that if most of us should already have a decent enough command of the language and
2ndly if you have actually worked with Vendors/Customers who speak a foreign language on a regular basis U will probably have the experience where they switch to their own native language to discuss things privately RIGHT IN FRONT OF U. yes it is ridiculous but they actually do that knowing a bit of the language will at least enable U to protect yourself from the conmen

 

[littlefish]

As I have said, there are 4 official National Languages, not one.

I would not restrict English as the dominant language as you do. I may even have University that concentrate on multi-language studies, instead of solely dependent on one, English.

The Finnish learned 4 languages, not by mere choice but by economic necessity. Russian is one of the 4 languages. As a trading port and a country that depends heavily on trade, it is only logical for us to be linguistically proficient. In the past, America and Briton may be our main trading partners, but look at the change in the trade balance. It is changing, very fast.

English is useful for acquire other knowledge, no doubt about that. But in terms of importance in economic terms, it may not be so in the coming decades.

I am getting really tired of explaining this. I have no problems with learning multiple languages. But the reality today is that many SGreans are struggling with Chinese. All you need to answer is this: Are you willing to say that if you do not score well enough in Chinese (or another second language), then you are not allowed to pursue higher education levels? You just need to answer Yes or No. This is all that I am after.