Meeting at Speaker's Corner 18 Oct, 6-7 pm

[kuntakinte]

Dun sign a blank cheque, name the assumptions.

There is no assumptions necessary here as long as I am concerned. Just simply place your empathy at the right place.

Otherwise, opportunists will create some fame for themselves.

You are making a lot of assumptions here.

People with money to buy these Minibonds not worthy to help? Just because they have money to buy things?

Many of them have these money from savings, CPF withdrawals and such. It may seem to be a lot of money to you but basically these monies are supposed to last them for the rest of their lives, maybe 10 or 20 years for their retirement.

So think before you say such things. Best, go down to Hong Lim to see for yourself, don't say I kid you.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Ah Hai]

Friday, October 24, 2008
High risk, absymal return
Dear Kin Lian

You are certainly doing a great job for the community by bravely taking side against the establishments. If not for your effort at galvanizing support and media coverage I am sure the response by the banks will have been different.

My heart goes out to all the investors who have bought these derivatives without understanding the associated risks. I do not expect the vast majority of them to even have an inkling that these products can be so risky. After all when one steps into a bank and is told by their staffs that they have a very "safe" product to sell which yields higher than deposit rates then of course many will be simply sold by the fact that they are dealing with a reputable bank that will not dupe them.

I myself have been approached many time by staffs of banks wishing to sell me "products that are high yielding and safe." When I queried them further on their products abysmal return versus the risk they were unable to answer me. I guess they are only repeating what they have been taught not what they should know. I do not blame the staffs as most of the products they are selling have so many clauses, technicalities and conditions that they themselves are overwhelmed. I think the banks who sold these products should bear responsibility for any and all losses incurred by investors.

Well done and keep up the excellent work.

Paul (a fund manager)

 

[Ah Hai]

Friday, October 24, 2008
Reputation as financial services hub
Hi Mr. Tan,

I have been quietly watching you championing for those who have lost their money at minibonds and High Notes. And, I must congratulate you as it is a good first success step that ST reported that the 3 banks may compensate the "vulnerable".

I have to tell you that I also bought the minibonds, series 2, although a small sum only.

I did not seek out for such an investment. I think I went to May Bank 2 years ago to do an FD, and the RM sold it to me.

Also, with the explanation, I was given to understand that I bought the bonds of these 7 organisations. Bonds should be quite safe right esp if held to maturity?

I remembered very clearly that I asked him what was the risk?

He told me that the risk is - if any of the 7 organisations went under , then I would lose the portion depending what is the percentage of the bonds. So, I calculated the risk. At most 1 company go under, then I should still get back he rest of the money from the balance of the bonds in the basket I remembered asking him this scenario, and he did not disagree with me. Looking at the list of the 7 big companies, the chance of 1 going under is slim leave alone more than one company going under.

No time during our conversation was Lehman Bros a risk analysis factor.

My friend, who has low risk appetite and is an accountancy grad, is also affected when she bought High Notes (given the understanding that in the worse case scenario, she would get the full sum back if held until maturity). Again, she did not seek out the investment, she went to DBS to do an FD.

Hence, my main point here is that - it is not only the vulnerable is affected. Someone with degree is also affected.

The Govt need to deal with banks who gave misleading info to consumers , if it wants its banks and our financial services here to retain a reputation as a reliable financial service hub.

KKW

 

[Zombie]

So think before you say such things.

You should tell TKL to think before he says anything.

TKL's "anyhow blame" has done nothing except to shift damage compensation from one category (those who were really misled) to another category (those uneducated old that may be but need not be misled).

Definitely, this group (see below, the misled by FIs plus the misled by TKL) will emerge and grow fast.

Friday, October 24, 2008
Speaker's Corner - 25 October 2008
I have registered to speak at Speaker Corner from 5 to 7 pm on Saturday 25 October.

Some investors are very angry at the action by the Government regarding investors outside of the "vulnerable" group. They sent strong messages to me in my blog and by e-mail.
I agree with your views. I receive more than 100 of these messages. I suggest that some of these investors should come forward and speak at Speaker's Corner. You can register quite easily at:

http://www.nparks.gov.sg/cms/index....t&chronoformname=honglim_park_speakers_corner

If you have registered, send your particulars to me. I will get the host to call the speakers to talk in an orderly manner.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 11:19 AM 2 comments

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

You should tell TKL to think before he says anything.

TKL's "anyhow blame" has done nothing except to shift damage compensation from one category (those who were really misled) to another category (those uneducated old that may be but need not be misled).

Definitely, this group (see below, the misled by FIs plus the misled by TKL) will emerge and grow fast.

Dear Zombie,

I would not think that its Mr. Tan's fault in this "shifting". First, it was an assumption, Very BIG Assumption, made by MAS and FIs that those uneducated old ones that would be misled. Not him.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dun sign a blank cheque, name the assumptions.

There is no assumptions necessary here as long as I am concerned. Just simply place your empathy at the right place.

Otherwise, opportunists will create some fame for themselves.

Dear Kuntakinte,

The main thing is this, when nobody come forward to help people when in need, everybody cry father cry mother and point fingers at opposition members that they only come out once every 5 years and not doing anything to help citizens in need. But when somebody step out of his comfort zone to help, you point finger at him again to say he is opportunist!

It is precisely this mentality that most opposition political parties are so afraid to step in to help. I have tried to approach my own party, WP and SPP to come forward and help as a supporting role, not hijacking the whole thing, but they are unwilling because, precisely because of people like you!

Its really an irony, BIG IRONY that we are going round in circles.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Zombie]

Dear Zombie,

I would not think that its Mr. Tan's fault in this "shifting". First, it was an assumption, Very BIG Assumption, made by MAS and FIs that those uneducated old ones that would be misled. Not him.

Goh Meng Seng

Mr Goh

After all these years, you still haven't get it? It is TKL who created the blame wave that pushed MAS and FIs to react that way. When hurricane is coming fast, do you still have the time to find out who needs your help most? It is always the women and children. Likewise, it is a natural reponse to TKL's "anyhow blame", to take care of the uneducated old. Most other people will have to fend for themselves. That is why I warned you that the MRT track may be waiting for them.

 

[Ah Hai]

Friday, October 24, 2008
Speaker's Corner - 25 October 2008
I have registered to speak at Speaker Corner from 5 to 7 pm on Saturday 25 October.

Some investors are very angry at the action by the Government regarding investors outside of the "vulnerable" group. They sent strong messages to me in my blog and by e-mail.

I agree with your views. I receive more than 100 of these messages. I suggest that some of these investors should come forward and speak at Speaker's Corner. You can register quite easily at:

http://www.nparks.gov.sg/cms/index....t&chronoformname=honglim_park_speakers_corner

If you have registered, send your particulars to me. I will get the host to call the speakers to talk in an orderly manner.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 5:00 PM 27 comments

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Mr Goh

After all these years, you still haven't get it? It is TKL who created the blame wave that pushed MAS and FIs to react that way. When hurricane is coming fast, do you still have the time to find out who needs your help most? It is always the women and children. Likewise, it is a natural reponse to TKL's "anyhow blame", to take care of the uneducated old. Most other people will have to fend for themselves. That is why I warned you that the MRT track may be waiting for them.

Dear Zombie,

Your argument is a bit flawed. So you mean that if TKL did not do anything, the MRT track will be free of bodies?

By putting the blame on "investors", the investors will not jump? I don't understand, please enlighten me.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[kuntakinte]

Goh Meng Seng,

Your reply is totally disappointing. If the oppositions are what you mentioned, the oppositions will never be the alternative to or even replace PAP. I will suggest that all oppositions join PAP instead or just play puppet to PAP.

Dun you oppositions have any conviction ? CSJ definitely has, but, unfortunately, he is a bankrupt. JBJ has, or rather, had since he left us to a more serene pasture.

If you have convictions, why bother about people like me ? You oppositions must do what you believe in, convicted in, and do the things right and NOT JUST THE RIGHT THINGS !! Just because there are few of us here or majority of us here, you lose the whole forest ?

Put this in your head - TKL was part of the system, why is he doing things that seem to antagonize his master ? Is he any different from Francis Seow ??

You are NOT going round in circle if you know what you are doing and strong in your conviction. DUN BE A SWAYING WILLOW !! One Pinky Swaying Willow is BAD enough !!

Dear Kuntakinte,

The main thing is this, when nobody come forward to help people when in need, everybody cry father cry mother and point fingers at opposition members that they only come out once every 5 years and not doing anything to help citizens in need. But when somebody step out of his comfort zone to help, you point finger at him again to say he is opportunist!

It is precisely this mentality that most opposition political parties are so afraid to step in to help. I have tried to approach my own party, WP and SPP to come forward and help as a supporting role, not hijacking the whole thing, but they are unwilling because, precisely because of people like you!

Its really an irony, BIG IRONY that we are going round in circles.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Zombie]

Dear Zombie,
Your argument is a bit flawed. So you mean that if TKL did not do anything, the MRT track will be free of bodies?
By putting the blame on "investors", the investors will not jump? I don't understand, please enlighten me.
Goh Meng Seng

Mr Goh

You are not getting anywhere by asking questions that would make no sense to yourself.

In his blog, TKL asks MAS and FIs to do the right things.
Is "anyhow blame" a right thing to do? The answer is so obvious.

 

[jw5]

Dear Zombie,

Your argument is a bit flawed. So you mean that if TKL did not do anything, the MRT track will be free of bodies?

By putting the blame on "investors", the investors will not jump? I don't understand, please enlighten me.

Goh Meng Seng

GMS
After observing your posts for some time in both forums, I think that you will be quite a good opposition MP. Please spend your time and efforts to try and get into parliament the next time. Also focus and make your views known on issues that affect Singaporeans and try to lobby on behalf of these people in the years leading up to the next elections.
There's no point in getting into online entanglements with certain people. Occasionally they do make some valid points and even if they don't, it sometimes doesn't reflect too well on you either.
I'm convinced that getting more thinking and capable people into parliament is the only way to move Singapore forward and improve the lives of Singaporeans. (not foreigners)

 

[po2wq]

Friday, October 24, 2008
Speaker's Corner - 25 October 2008
I have registered to speak at Speaker Corner from 5 to 7 pm on Saturday 25 October...

tis 1 shld put as a new thread la ...

u put inside here, unless ppl cum inside here n read tis o thread ... otherwise ppl dun even noe gt happening ...

 

[Ah Hai]

SCMP:Angry investors protest
25 Oct 2008
Peter So

About 100 desperate investors who bought retail structured notes and equity-linked notes from local banks linked to the bankrupt US investment bank Lehman Brothers
protested to the Hong Kong Monetary Authority and the Securities and Futures Commission yesterday morning.

They said the authorities had only paid attention to the victims of Lehman-linked minibonds but ignored those who bought other structured products. Minibonds are not corporate bonds but consist of high-risk creditlinked derivatives.

The protesters included customers of Citic Ka Wah Bank, Chong Hing Bank, DBS Bank, Citibank, Standard Chartered Bank, ABN Amro, Royal Bank of Scotland and Dai Sang Bank.
They said the banks had deceived them into putting their life savings into the high-risk investment products and urged the banks to make full repayments. DBS said it would notify clients yesterday of the value of their structured products linked to Lehman, and would compensate the customers for losses if mis-selling was found.

But protester Wong Kam-chuen, who invested more than HK$2 million in the bank’s retail structured notes, said he had heard nothing from DBS.

“The bank staff couldn’t tell me when the investigation [into alleged mis-selling] will finish. I really have no idea of when I can have my money back,” said Mr Wong.

http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/viewer.aspx

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

At the end of the day, real effective change shall probably come about only after a split within PAP and when I say PAP I include the general establishment elites including the likes of the TKL.

So when Ong Teng Cheong was raising genuine valid legitimate questions in his capacity as President, would it have mattered whether he was previously a senior Pappy?

Perhaps we should draw our opinions from people's actions over a reasonable length of time rather than just tarring them with a black brush because of previous past associations.

In any event what is so wrong if TKL does indeed want to run for President? At least he appears to look more credible than say Andrew Kuan and hopefully provides the electorate with a genuine choice come next PE.

Put this in your head - TKL was part of the system, why is he doing things that seem to antagonize his master ? Is he any different from Francis Seow ??

!!

 

[myjohnson]

Dun sign a blank cheque, name the assumptions.

There is no assumptions necessary here as long as I am concerned. Just simply place your empathy at the right place.

Otherwise, opportunists will create some fame for themselves.

I really had a good laugh reading your post. You were so spot on in your intuition. Guess nobody can ever sell you a bottle of snake oil.:p

 

[Ah Hai]

Saturday, October 25, 2008
Speaker’s Corner – 25 Oct 2008
1. Lodge your complaint
The first step is to lodge your complaint with the financial institution that sold the product to you.

Be honest. In your report, you should state honestly what you were told and what you were led to believe, when you decided to invest in the product. Many investors were assured that the structured product is “safe” and “low risk” and is a good alternative to “fixed deposit”. If this is the case, you can state it honestly.

Do not worry that you have signed forms given to you by the sales representative (or relationship manager). If you were not told about the content of the form and did not get a clear explanation on what the statements meant, you can state it in your report.

The most important point is to state how you were misled, and what you were told by the sales representative.

I have printed the forms for you to collect the relevant information to complete your complaint. You can get the assistance of the volunteers, if you are not clear about the type of information that is needed.

Read this advice:
http://tankinlian.blogspot.com/2008/10/general-advice-to-investors-of.html

2. “Non-Vulnerable” Investor
Many investors were unsure about how they will be treated, as the fall outside of the “vulnerable” group. So far, MAS and the financial institutions have not stated how these investor will be treated.

Let us take it one step at a time. You should lodge your complaint and attend the interview arranged by the financial institution. You can state honestly what is contained in your statement that you lodged with the financial institution.

If you do not wish to attend alone, you can bring a family member, friend or fellow investor to accompany you.

3. Dispute Resolution Center
If you are not able to get a satisfactory compensation from the financial institution, you can bring you case to Financial Industry Dispute Resolution Center, FiDREC (www.fidrec.com.sg). You pay a fee of $50.

FiDREC will form a panel to consider your complaint. FiDREC has the authority to pass a judgment that is binding on the financial institution. This decision is NOT binding on the consumer. The consumer still has the right to take the case to court.

At present, FiDREC has the authority to decide on claims up to $50,000. It can hear larger cases, subject to agreement of the financial institution.

4. Open Forum with Financial Institution
I suggest that investors should get together, according to the financial institution that sold the product to you, to request the financial institution to hold an open forum with the investors to discuss the following:

a) How the investors were misled by the information given by the sales representatives

b) How the financial institution can compensate the investors for their loss, caused by the bad advice and mis-information.

5. Petition #4
There are a potential of 10,000 cases to be handled. So far, just a handful of cases under the “vulnerable group” have been handled. It will take a long time for these 10,000 cases to be resolved, using the “case by case” approach. Many of those affected have still not lodged their complaint.

I will be organizing another Petition #4 addressed to the chairman of MAS. This is to ask MAS to help find a collective solution to the mis-selling by the financial institutions. A collective approach will reduce the stress on the individual investors in making the complaint and will ensure that fair compensation is given to all the affected investors, according to the category that they fall under.

6. Legal action
Some investors wish to take collective legal action. I like them to be aware that it can be costly and risky to take this action. It should be considered only as a last resort.

Before the investors decide to take this action, they should be aware about the cost and the chance of winning the case. They must also agree on the approach. They may be able to get different estimates of the cost from other lawyers.


Tan Kin Lian
www.tankinlian.blogspot.com

 

[Ah Hai]

Saturday, October 25, 2008
HK Monetary Authority refers 40 more 'mini-bonds' cases to SFC
Saturday, 25 October 2008

The Hong Kong Monetary Authority said yesterday it had referred to the Securities and Futures Commission 40 more cases of alleged mis-selling of Lehman Brothers-backed financial products by banks.

"The 40 cases, which are the second batch of Lehman-Brothers-related cases referred in this way, involved alleged misconduct by two licensed banks in Hong Kong," the city's de-facto central bank said in a statement.

It said one of the banks in question was also involved in the first batch of 24 cases it referred on October 17.

Up to Thursday, the authority said it had received 16,301 complaints by investors who said their banks had sold them "mini-bonds" backed by the collapsed US giant without having fully explained to them the risks involved.

Apart from the 64 referrals to the SFC, the authority said it had opened investigations on 285 complaints and was seeking further information on 1,942 complaints.

In light of the large number of complaints, the authority said it would have to streamline the investigation process by identifying groups of cases with common features in making referrals to the SFC.

The Hong Kong Association of Banks said in a statement Friday that individual banks had since earlier this week started the process of settling with relevant investors, particularly elderly customers with no investment experience.

The association said its special task force will be in close liaison with the Monetary Authority to explore a mediation mechanism between the banks and their investors.

Thousands of investors have held protests across the territory in the past few weeks claiming the banks mis-sold the mini-bonds as risk-free investments, and lured vulnerable citizens into using up their life-savings.

Although the banks agreed last week to adopt a government proposal for them to buy back the products from customers at their current market value, the move failed to pacify investors who said they would get back a portion of their investment.

The mini-bonds are complex financial products linked to a bundle of derivatives backed by Lehman, and their value plummeted after the investment bank collapsed in September.

http://www.macaudailytimesnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18068&Itemid=34

 

[Zombie]

Please spend your time and efforts to try and get into parliament the next time. Also focus and make your views known on issues that affect Singaporeans and try to lobby on behalf of these people in the years leading up to the next elections.

Mr Goh MS

Like JW5 says, you should focus on yourself and how you can help people.
Stop wasting time defending TKL's "anyhow blame".

 

[Ah Hai]

DBS to hold formal dialogue sessions with High Notes investors
By May Wong, Channel NewsAsia | Posted: 25 October 2008 2218 hrs

SINGAPORE: DBS Bank will hold at least two formal dialogue sessions on Thursday and Friday with investors who bought the DBS High Notes products, which failed after US investment bank Lehman Brothers collapsed last month.

Channel NewsAsia understands that the dialogue will explain what DBS is doing to compensate the investors and its compensation review process. The dialogue comes after investors called for the bank to clarify various issues.

A DBS spokesperson said at least three of the bank's top management will speak to the investors at the dialogue sessions. DBS' independent external adviser, Gerard Ee, who is tasked to oversee the complaints and resolution process for the bank's investors, will also be present.

Separately, Channel NewsAsia understands that over hundred DBS High Notes investors will meet informally on Monday to learn more about their products from a lawyer and banker. They want to know what kind of compensation they might be entitled to.

For the third Saturday in a row, the Speakers' Corner was the meeting place for those who bought DBS High Notes and Lehman Brothers Minibonds. Over 300 turned up to share more information with fellow investors.

Eric Tan, an investor, said: "On the first day, there was a feeling of anger, frustration, heartache... After hearing how to lodge a complaint, people are aware and (there is) a bit of calmness there. I'll see what sort of fair compensation they'll give to me. Otherwise, my next step will be to go to the FIDReC."

For 57-year-old George Woo, he still feels investors lack the necessary information.

"The government should come out strongly to tell us what we should do. Unlike the contaminated milk case, we can't just throw this product away. These investments are our hard-earned money. I'm still a bit worried because we don't know exactly how much we can get back," he said.

Independent parties handed out complaint forms to help investors provide critical information to financial institutions. These complaint forms will then be sent to various banks.

Many are also calling on the financial institutions to provide a full disclosure on compensation amounts eventually.


- CNA/so